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Ohh i agree with you, personally i find however that many seem to understimate the base reroll 1 every squad has and what that reliability improvement is actually worth.
F.e. Look at the purge trait. It's the most played competitively talking renegade trait for a reason.
Having an inbuilt failsafe light and a FNP on better marines (yes all sm are better now then csm due to beeing cheaper or 2w) is quite massive still.
As for the deathball.
Aurahammer is boring and the new thing which got old fast imo.
I think that's a poor example - the Purge trait applies to everything.
This applies only to heavy weapons.
And the purge trait has a precondition and only on a target that must be met.
Your point?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Dudeface wrote: So with the imp fist leak showing an aura of +damage against vehicles, I think iron hands maybe just got hard countered?
If you're referring to the new IF character, the bonus only applies to himself. Also playtesters have claimed the IF is even more bonkers than IH, so it's not a surprise that IF will counter IH. It just exacerbates the issue of clearly unbalanced supplements.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
That's definitely one thing I'll say about Ultramarines: they have THE best Agressors, bar none. They're almost comparable to everyone else's Centurions.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Crimson wrote: I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...
Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.
You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.
IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,
We play different 40k man. It's weird not to lose 2 units or more turn 1 or a knight.
Example. The last game I played against tau with Ultramarines. I went first. Killed his stormsurge and riptide turn 1 a broadside and a unit of stealth suits and like 10 fire warriors. If he went first I would have lost even more. The fire power is literally insane this edition.
OFC not all lists are bringing a bunch of big guns but every list should be bringing alpha strike or i don't know how you'd keep up.
There are many reasons.
1) 1750 point lists. This decreases the available fire power by a lot. Firepower is not linear with points, is almost exponential.
2) Lists built with 6 different missions in mind that favor mobility, flexibility and durability over firepower. Killing nets zero points, and tabling doesn't make you win.
3) Counter deployment. The player going second deploys everything second, so he deploys defensively.
Sure, there are lists like AM and Tau that will take one or 2 units turn one, that is what they excel at. They have insane range. An IH list though doesn't have the range, and will not score many points turn one.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
My proposed ironhands list would have literally 1 primary weapon with a range of 24 or less (the levi dread) Troops have 36" range and most anti infantry firepower is coming out at 24-30. Plus every units can move and shoot without penalty. I don't think range is an issue.
This is how the game works man. If you can see a unit. You can kill it. This is why defensive armies do the best.
Ynnari made a unit of shinning spears indestructable and destroyed your whole army with it.
Castellan knight goes 3++ and destroys your whole army
Deathgaurd army everything has 5++ and 5+++ and sits on objectives with PB TS army buffs tzangors to be indestructble and fight twice with them destroying your army.
Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Dudeface wrote: So with the imp fist leak showing an aura of +damage against vehicles, I think iron hands maybe just got hard countered?
If you're referring to the new IF character, the bonus only applies to himself. Also playtesters have claimed the IF is even more bonkers than IH, so it's not a surprise that IF will counter IH. It just exacerbates the issue of clearly unbalanced supplements.
So you're saying we should expect to see a thread saying " Will I feel bad about using blue Imperial Fists ? " In a few weeks once the details of that all drop ? I love seeing the future, today.
Dudeface wrote: So with the imp fist leak showing an aura of +damage against vehicles, I think iron hands maybe just got hard countered?
If you're referring to the new IF character, the bonus only applies to himself. Also playtesters have claimed the IF is even more bonkers than IH, so it's not a surprise that IF will counter IH. It just exacerbates the issue of clearly unbalanced supplements.
So you're saying we should expect to see a thread saying " Will I feel bad about using blue Imperial Fists ? " In a few weeks once the details of that all drop ? I love seeing the future, today.
proably, and after all the complaining the small part of me who thinks life tends to be full of amusing little suprises thinks that Ultramarines will end up being the tourny winning list
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Crimson wrote: I guess I kinda fail to see the awesomeness of Ultra fall back and shoot (with penalty) trick. There are many good shooty marine units with fly, so they don't need that. And Intercessors are pretty decent at melee, so I'm not super concerned for them having to fight instead of shooting. And of course IH's overwatch buff is a pretty decent deterrent against things charging you in the first place.
The only unit they will need to keep out of CC is their levi dread and honestly if it gets to overwatch...very little wants to charge it anyways (ESP if you are rerolling all hits) + they have a stratagem to fall back and shoot with a single unit...
Nor do Iron hands not have to run screens. Intercessors are one of the best picks in the codex and they gain a ton from being itron hands too.
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
That's half the problem.
Note, the other half is stricly dependent on playing the game by the standard rules, so in ITC YMMV.
The other half is that they cover one of the major weaknesses of the new SM quite well. To gain these huge bonuses SM have to give up the screens, which immediately makes them vulnerable to mortal wounds and assault units. Who cares about an IH parking lot when i can crash an helldrake on them from outside their threat range. But UM can retreat and shoot, are extremely powerful at short range in the second turn, can take the decision to go for the counter assault by moving into assault doctrine (all punches going to AP-1 hurts much more than you think) only to go back their favorite doctrine with a CP. Being good in the tactical doctrine gives you a lot of flexibility.
Sure, IH are good from turn 1, but is that really useful? Turn 1 is usually a movement turn with not many kills (again, not in ITC), especially when your list has a majority of range 24".
Add to this that UM are the ones who use best the aggressors, which are probably the most powerful unit in the SM arsenal.
UM can be countered by lists that are completely focused on shooting, and that's it. Any other list will see itself outplayed on all possible scenarios.
In short, while i can see possible ways to outplay White Scars RG and IH, for every scenario i can think against UM they always have a countermove. That's what i find scary.
Sorry but...units that require a setup turn aren't actually powerful because you have to compare them to units that don't need a setup turn. There is very little reason to take an aggressor over an assault centurion also. Guess what they gain from counts as stationary...oh yeah...nothing. Agressors would be a top choice if they could ride in an impulsor...they can't. Even as Ultras agressors will have to advance to get into range to shoot turn 1 (which means they can't shoot twice) so turn 2 at best. You could try spamming them. Str 4 spam isn't exactly stellar though.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tibs Ironblood wrote: I've said it before and I will say it again: Ultramarines have the massive advantage of outright removing a tool from the toolkit of opposing armies by being able to fall back and shoot (outside of having units be completely wrapped which is a whole other dimension of strategy and counter play).
Iron Hands you can still run into and hit thus locking them down. Now personally I'm going to be running dread heavy with melee so I'm not TOO terribly upset by that because they are still good in melee (not against hordes), but against razorback spam or what have you it's devilishly effective. However the point stands that you have the options to heavily handicap an Iron Hand parking lot's firepower by the classic tag it strategy. You outright don't have that most of the time versus Ultramarines and that's HUGE. Yes the Iron Hands have the advantage and raw firepower and durability (by far durability), but you can never, NEVER devalue the power of toolkit options which can very often surpass the overall effectiveness of raw power options.
I mean I've been toying with taking a huge assault centurian unit - the Ultras stratagem lets them fall back and charge with no pentaly is very strong on them. Though - they aren't exactly impervious to damage and the move a terrible 4"...4 fething inches. Require a LRC (which does nothing but bring more of the same firepower) The redeemer sounds interesting until you realize turn 1 you wont be firing with about 500 points turn 1....it's just terrible. Storm raven might as well not exist at it's cost and Ultras are literally the worst tactic for it. Nothing lines up with ultras. The only army where everything fits together is ironhands...
Oh..spam the best units?
Ignore all their weakness?
Get additional defense from relics and HQ's?
Spread out and still get to reroll some dice?
Stack doctrine and super doctrine benefits all game?
Spoletta wrote: The more i think about it, the more i fear the ultramarines and the less i fear the IH.
What in particular makes you fear the Ultramarines? Aside their atrocious fashion sense, I mean.
Yes...blue and gold...so Ugly.
You probably didn't read, so i will repeat.
I'm not talking about ITC where turn 1 is fundamental. I'm talking about standard 40K, where it isn't unusual to not even score first blood on turn 1.
This is due to multiple reasons that i'm not going to list because if you play ITC you probably don't care.
My point is that in a standard game, the necessity for the UM to have a setup turn isn't such a drawback, because the first turn isn't a killy one. It's turn 2 and 3 where stuff gets slaughtered in droves.
On the other hand, the flexibility offered by being able to fall back and shoot, and the massive advantage offered by being in tactical doctrine, easily offsets the bonuses of IH. Not to mention the overwatch stratagem and the greater amount of CPs of UM lists.
You think that your leviathan will ever overwatch? No, it simply isn't going to happen if you are IH.
For UM though? That leviathan and his friends will shoot holes in any assaulters.
IH lists are one trick pony that are outplayed in many ways, but UM lists simply have an answer to everything,
We play different 40k man. It's weird not to lose 2 units or more turn 1 or a knight.
Example. The last game I played against tau with Ultramarines. I went first. Killed his stormsurge and riptide turn 1 a broadside and a unit of stealth suits and like 10 fire warriors. If he went first I would have lost even more. The fire power is literally insane this edition.
OFC not all lists are bringing a bunch of big guns but every list should be bringing alpha strike or i don't know how you'd keep up.
There are many reasons.
1) 1750 point lists. This decreases the available fire power by a lot. Firepower is not linear with points, is almost exponential.
2) Lists built with 6 different missions in mind that favor mobility, flexibility and durability over firepower. Killing nets zero points, and tabling doesn't make you win.
3) Counter deployment. The player going second deploys everything second, so he deploys defensively.
Sure, there are lists like AM and Tau that will take one or 2 units turn one, that is what they excel at. They have insane range. An IH list though doesn't have the range, and will not score many points turn one.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
My proposed ironhands list would have literally 1 primary weapon with a range of 24 or less (the levi dread) Troops have 36" range and most anti infantry firepower is coming out at 24-30. Plus every units can move and shoot without penalty. I don't think range is an issue.
This is how the game works man. If you can see a unit. You can kill it. This is why defensive armies do the best.
Ynnari made a unit of shinning spears indestructable and destroyed your whole army with it.
Castellan knight goes 3++ and destroys your whole army
Deathgaurd army everything has 5++ and 5+++ and sits on objectives with PB TS army buffs tzangors to be indestructble and fight twice with them destroying your army.
Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?[/spoiler]
I don't remember any of those lists you name ever placing at a GT heat, but i can't find the results now, so maybe it happened and i just don't remember.
Also, what do you mean by "Consistently winning" when we have 4 tournaments per year (the 4 heats) and in the time span between them the meta changes quite a lot?
I hope that you are not basing your opinion on 40k stats or BCP app, because those do not register standard 40k games.
Actually, games in Europe are just not registered, so i have no way to convince you and you have no way to prove me wrong...this is quite a problem...
Xenomancers wrote: Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Orks.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Xenomancers wrote: Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Orks.
Are orks competitive though?
Also jumping /tellyporta is kind of defense via offence no?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/19 05:39:24
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Orks currently outnumber GSC for GT top 4 placements and tournament wins, I'd call that competitive.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: Orks currently outnumber GSC for GT top 4 placements and tournament wins, I'd call that competitive.
Irony is a hobby for germans i thought.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
A pretty good chunk of people are indeed serious about a that.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Jidmah wrote: A pretty good chunk of people are indeed serious about a that.
Shamefur dispray, i even used the tongue smily.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
The more I play actual Warhammer with the CA18 missions, the more I find it to be superior to ITCHammer with it's house rules and meta defining secondary objectives.
A pity others haven't given it a shot. Same goes for the Urban Conquest rules - those are amazing.
So you're saying we should expect to see a thread saying " Will I feel bad about using blue Imperial Fists ? " In a few weeks once the details of that all drop ? I love seeing the future, today.
We are absolutely going to see histrionics related to Dorn's boys. And I am fully prepared to lambaste all of it.
2019/09/19 13:13:17
Subject: Re:Will I feel bad using blue Iron hands?
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
Xenomancers wrote: Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Orks.
KFF is an insane defensive buff. Marines jumping up and down for getting 5++ saves. Orks get it without paying for a save in the first place. Plus you got grot shield that was heavily abused until the nerf. Orks do well for obvious reason which are related to defense just not buff. They under pay for a lot of their best units - kind of like dark eldar. Plus stratagems like bringing a unit back to life - I'd call that defensive too.
So you're saying we should expect to see a thread saying " Will I feel bad about using blue Imperial Fists ? " In a few weeks once the details of that all drop ? I love seeing the future, today.
We are absolutely going to see histrionics related to Dorn's boys. And I am fully prepared to lambaste all of it.
Go for it. The point isn't about Iron hands or Imperial fist. It is about unbalanced supplements. IDK how you can defend this nonsense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/09/19 13:46:57
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Lemondish wrote: The more I play actual Warhammer with the CA18 missions, the more I find it to be superior to ITCHammer with it's house rules and meta defining secondary objectives.
A pity others haven't given it a shot. Same goes for the Urban Conquest rules - those are amazing.
Unrban Conquest is only fun if your going to actually recost ever weapon for high BS models, paying a 30% points premium for a weapon which then both spend 90% of the game hitting on 6's only isn't fun or balanced unless you are the one paying the cheapest points.
Also CA missions oh you need charictors to score VP's it would short be a shame if someone brought an army of snipers that get +1 to hit and wound against charictors
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/19 13:54:51
At the end of the day it's you that has to be happy with your choices, do you value the background fluff of the game at all?
Do you bother to paint your army at all?
Do you use terrain or books and cans?
Does the specific paint scheme you chose not conflict with the rules you want?
Are you being internally consistent?
Seems like you are the one that loses out by proxying your Ultramarines. If you have friends that will play you then who cares? I wouldn't play you, but I don't care about that and probably you don't either. It's on you, do you feel proud of your choices?
ph34r's Forgeworld Phobos blog, current WIP: Iron Warriors and Skaven Tau +From Iron Cometh Strength+ +From Strength Cometh Will+ +From Will Cometh Faith+ +From Faith Cometh Honor+ +From Honor Cometh Iron+
The Polito form is dead, insect. Are you afraid? What is it you fear? The end of your trivial existence?
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a footnote to my magnificence.
Go for it. The point isn't about Iron hands or Imperial fist. It is about unbalanced supplements. IDK how you can defend this nonsense.
Quite easily. But you're still ranting on about how a 5+ overwatch without a FTGG component is somehow the pinnacle of game breakingness. So I'm not exactly worried about your opinion on your opinions.
Also CA missions oh you need charictors to score VP's it would short be a shame if someone brought an army of snipers that get +1 to hit and wound against charictors
There's only one mission that requires characters to score. It leads to some very interesting play (and hilarious counterplay when both armies snipe out all the characters so you're scrambling for Linebreaker at endgame).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/19 14:17:38
Go for it. The point isn't about Iron hands or Imperial fist. It is about unbalanced supplements. IDK how you can defend this nonsense.
Quite easily. But you're still ranting on about how a 5+ overwatch without a FTGG component is somehow the pinnacle of game breakingness. So I'm not exactly worried about your opinion on your opinions.
Also CA missions oh you need charictors to score VP's it would short be a shame if someone brought an army of snipers that get +1 to hit and wound against charictors
There's only one mission that requires characters to score. It leads to some very interesting play (and hilarious counterplay when both armies snipe out all the characters so you're scrambling for Linebreaker at endgame).
Regards the different supplements I actually hope they all round each other out. Iron hands have a character lead tank bubble, raven guard snipe out the characters easily or imp fists do extra vehicle damage. Imp fists and raven guard have it's of expensive infantry, ultras infantry chews through these. Ultras are also primarily infantry but lose out on the vehicle front, giving iron hands an advantage. Etc.
Regards the different supplements I actually hope they all round each other out. Iron hands have a character lead tank bubble, raven guard snipe out the characters easily or imp fists do extra vehicle damage. Imp fists and raven guard have it's of expensive infantry, ultras infantry chews through these. Ultras are also primarily infantry but lose out on the vehicle front, giving iron hands an advantage. Etc.
Im actually pretty happy with how even they've come out. Some have the power focused in their doctrine, others have it in their WLTs, Relics and Strats.
There's a ton of very different ways to play Codex Marines right now. Some are more beginner friendly, while others reward smart play. It's not all just numberHammer.
By the way White scars placed top 4 in London GT and went undefeated.... So chill
8000 Dark Angels (No primaris)
10000 Lizardmen (Fantasy I miss you)
3000 High Elves 4000 Kel'shan Ta'u "He attacked everything in life with a mix of extraordinary genius and naive incompetence, and it was often difficult to tell which was which." -Douglas Adams
2019/09/19 16:55:23
Subject: Re:Will I feel bad using blue Iron hands?
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
That was your fault.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
That was your fault.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
To be fair that could have been 850ish points dropping, with minimum sized squads and a cheap Master. (thus making it actually legal for a 1750 point game)
(No primaris)
(Fantasy I miss you)
