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An entire army in Pods is legal now? Even if not a great idea, wow.
Yup, (codex) pods are exempt from most of the normal DS rules. They can come in turn 1, and dont require anchors.
Things get weird when combined with other sources of deep strike though, and we're gonna need some FAQs to sort it out.
Yeah I just glossed over it thinking "Alright, turn one DS!" not realizing the extent of the implications of ignoring the other restrictions. Time to finally finish the rest of my 6 pods, I guess.
I'd want to keep some space open anyways, so Scout deployment may still be necessary, but damn.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
we play 2k here, but I doubt it would matter much, and I didn't put my stuff in the open I put it behind LoS buildings to avoid shoting and charges from his dreandnoughts.
I have one 5 man strike squad, so I can't really use the tactics you proposed. I had a 10 man paladin squads plus characters in deep strike and the rest of the army on the ground, as unlike pods I have to be 50/50 with points on the ground. And if turn two I would have droped the paladins not on the objective, he would had max points for objectives for turn 1 and turn 2, by which point I may as well concead. As there is no way for my heros and one unit to contest or grab objectives from a mostly untouched 2k pts army.
Was my first game after summer, vs the new codex, in which I didn't knew that pods can drop turn one. But even If I knew, it still wouldn't change much. I probably wouldn't have put stuff in deep strike or just put the characters in it. Would still lose, but it would be turn 3.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/09/19 18:31:57
Subject: Re:Will I feel bad using blue Iron hands?
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
That was your fault.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
To be fair that could have been 850ish points dropping, with minimum sized squads and a cheap Master. (thus making it actually legal for a 1750 point game)
No. 3 sternguard squads with combi grav and 3 dev squads with grav +3 pods are already close to 1200 points. Then he needs a chapter master and some way to deep strike it, because the 3 pods are full. If you play something like that at 1750, that is your full list, and honestly it is tailored against Karol's list, because it is a really bad list against a lot of stuff out there and loses a lot of efficacy if going second.
2019/09/19 19:18:03
Subject: Re:Will I feel bad using blue Iron hands?
What you described, killing almost 1000 points of models turn 1 would mean a tragic error of the opponent and the end of the game. Games are not decided turn 1 if both players know what they are doing, they are decided turn 3, sometimes turn 2.
I deploy my dudes behind cover, because if they are in cover LoS can be drawn to them. turn one my opponent drops 3 drop pods each with 3 units of devastators with grav guns, and a unit of combi weapon armed sternguard, he also deep strike his chapter master with the formation. Blows up my army leaving me with 3 models alive on my own turn 1, and 12 models in deep strike. I drop on objective and get pelted from both his deployment and my deployment. droping my whole army to 7 models start of my turn 2.
That was your fault.
He placed his whole army in pods and went first (you named 1300 points of stuff, so 450 left, including the other mandatory hq and the trops), and you placed your guys on a target practice field against range 24" (at most) weapons?
What about putting half your army in deepstrike, 3 strike squads in front to push back the pods and the important stuff 13" behind?
He played a really predictable army, punish him for that. Maybe that he will still win in the end, after all he is playing the new marines and you are playing GK, but is surely not going to be a turn 1 blowout.
To be fair that could have been 850ish points dropping, with minimum sized squads and a cheap Master. (thus making it actually legal for a 1750 point game)
No. 3 sternguard squads with combi grav and 3 dev squads with grav +3 pods are already close to 1200 points. Then he needs a chapter master and some way to deep strike it, because the 3 pods are full. If you play something like that at 1750, that is your full list, and honestly it is tailored against Karol's list, because it is a really bad list against a lot of stuff out there and loses a lot of efficacy if going second.
Maybe you and I read the army differently. I got:
Devastators (5) with Grav Cannons (4), Cherub
Devastators (5) with Grav Cannons (4), Cherub
Devastators (5) with Grav Cannons (4), Cherub
Sternguard w/Combi Plasma (5)
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Drop Pod
Captain (stuff).
850ish
It could have been the above and two more Sternguard Squads for an additional 250, I suppose. And upgrade the Captain to a Jump Pack for +20ish. That's 11something, sure.
It wasn't really clear. I just pulled up the possible minimum from what I could understand in the description.
As mentioned already though, my original thought that it had to be under half the army was wrong anyways. It winds up being half-ish of the 2000 point list though.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Why would space marines feel bad for taking their rightful place as Angels of Death ? I don't understand.
Oh and there were WW as well in the list, which was also very cool.
They can be whatever they want in the books. On the table they should be sorry, because GW refuse to make balanced rules.
Well if we think about sm as the new codex in a new edition, then soon we are going to get a new eldar book or new tau book, which is going to make space marines look underpowered. I do not envy the csm player though. last codex in the "old" way of writing books, probably no chance for an update in at leat a year or more. Not a good time to be a word bearer player.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
AngryAngel80 wrote: Why would space marines feel bad for taking their rightful place as Angels of Death ? I don't understand.
Oh and there were WW as well in the list, which was also very cool.
They can be whatever they want in the books. On the table they should be sorry, because GW refuse to make balanced rules.
Well if we think about sm as the new codex in a new edition, then soon we are going to get a new eldar book or new tau book, which is going to make space marines look underpowered. I do not envy the csm player though. last codex in the "old" way of writing books, probably no chance for an update in at leat a year or more. Not a good time to be a word bearer player.
Until flyers are gone Eldar have counterplay, Tao will struggle, but poor Necrons who had problems with SM with the old codex, poor robots.
Xenomancers wrote: Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Orks.
KFF is an insane defensive buff. Marines jumping up and down for getting 5++ saves. Orks get it without paying for a save in the first place. Plus you got grot shield that was heavily abused until the nerf. Orks do well for obvious reason which are related to defense just not buff. They under pay for a lot of their best units - kind of like dark eldar. Plus stratagems like bringing a unit back to life - I'd call that defensive too.
As usual, you have no clue what you are talking about. 5++ is not an "insane defensive buff" it's literally the same increase in saves as putting marines in cover - except instead of taking 50% less wounds from bolters, it's 20% and it's equally good against AP-1 weapons. Basically, it makes orks die slow enough to not be a waste of points.
Grot shield was never nerfed, it hasn't been changed at all and the only "abuse" would be using it to protect a unit that pays more points for BS 5+ Sv 6+ 1W model than marines pay for BS 3+ Sv 3+ 2W models. Suppressors are strictly better than lootas and get fly, deep strike and supressive fire free on top.
And calling green tide a defensive buff... yeah, a strong offensive is the best defensive, so everything is defensive and thus every army is using nothing but defensive things - defensive lascannons, defensive smashas, defensive haywire guns, defensive smites, defensive snipers, defensive smash captains, defensive bloodletter bomb...
Oh, and marines can have a 4++ and a -1 to hit, and yet that color of marines has the worst win percentage. Which mean your thesis of 5++ being an "insane defensive debuff" is objectively wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lemondish wrote: The more I play actual Warhammer with the CA18 missions, the more I find it to be superior to ITCHammer with it's house rules and meta defining secondary objectives.
A pity others haven't given it a shot. Same goes for the Urban Conquest rules - those are amazing.
Agree, CA2018 has by far the best missions.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/20 09:04:10
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Until flyers are gone Eldar have counterplay, Tao will struggle, but poor Necrons who had problems with SM with the old codex, poor robots.
Oh I don't think the new marines are some doom of everything kind of a thing. the RG are going to be super annoying to play, because denial list are like that, specially for some old list, just like you said. necron vs RG is going to be VERY unfun for the necron player.
And while I don't even mind be beaten by a strong list with a weak list, match ups should still not end with one side not being able to do anything. If suddenly we got an army that does a turn one charge with 80% of its points turn one, with no counter possible, because everyone is jetbike or fly, I wouldn't like it either, and it would have minimal impact of my match ups.
And if IH/WS/Ultra armies are going to add some changes to the meta it is going to be good as a whole for the game. But as with all rule sets being drip released, some people are going to have to wait years before they get good stuff, and even then it ain't sure if the stuff they get is going to be matching the meta or even good at all.
If you have to kill, then kill in the best manner. If you slaughter, then slaughter in the best manner. Let one of you sharpen his knife so his animal feels no pain.
2019/09/20 12:06:37
Subject: Re:Will I feel bad using blue Iron hands?
I've always found it odd that GW puts out a product, that rocks the meta and people complain, even if it's otherwise very balanced and simply counters the popular meta... thats not a bad thing, it forces some list varity. I mean obviously there's a differance between a unit that nicely counters a meta, and a unit thats just OP broken. but I find a lotta people don't, initally at least, diffrentiate
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/20 12:07:20
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2019/09/20 13:01:17
Subject: Re:Will I feel bad using blue Iron hands?
BrianDavion wrote: I've always found it odd that GW puts out a product, that rocks the meta and people complain, even if it's otherwise very balanced and simply counters the popular meta... thats not a bad thing, it forces some list varity. I mean obviously there's a differance between a unit that nicely counters a meta, and a unit thats just OP broken. but I find a lotta people don't, initally at least, diffrentiate
QFT
I suspect many posters will also never play with or against a lot of these lists and armies which they decry on the internet. If you play against something 5 times and haven't been able to even things up with experience, then you have a right to voice complaint. You may have suspected it was OP, but trying it in game is the only way to be sure.
2019/09/20 14:54:08
Subject: Re:Will I feel bad using blue Iron hands?
BrianDavion wrote: I've always found it odd that GW puts out a product, that rocks the meta and people complain, even if it's otherwise very balanced and simply counters the popular meta... thats not a bad thing, it forces some list varity. I mean obviously there's a differance between a unit that nicely counters a meta, and a unit thats just OP broken. but I find a lotta people don't, initally at least, diffrentiate
QFT
I suspect many posters will also never play with or against a lot of these lists and armies which they decry on the internet. If you play against something 5 times and haven't been able to even things up with experience, then you have a right to voice complaint. You may have suspected it was OP, but trying it in game is the only way to be sure.
Nah, get ready to be smacked by the "I don't need to experience it when it is mathematically obvious" comment.
No matter how much time such approach has failed, people still love it.
Xenomancers wrote: Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?
Orks.
KFF is an insane defensive buff. Marines jumping up and down for getting 5++ saves. Orks get it without paying for a save in the first place. Plus you got grot shield that was heavily abused until the nerf. Orks do well for obvious reason which are related to defense just not buff. They under pay for a lot of their best units - kind of like dark eldar. Plus stratagems like bringing a unit back to life - I'd call that defensive too.
As usual, you have no clue what you are talking about. 5++ is not an "insane defensive buff" it's literally the same increase in saves as putting marines in cover - except instead of taking 50% less wounds from bolters, it's 20% and it's equally good against AP-1 weapons. Basically, it makes orks die slow enough to not be a waste of points.
Grot shield was never nerfed, it hasn't been changed at all and the only "abuse" would be using it to protect a unit that pays more points for BS 5+ Sv 6+ 1W model than marines pay for BS 3+ Sv 3+ 2W models. Suppressors are strictly better than lootas and get fly, deep strike and supressive fire free on top.
And calling green tide a defensive buff... yeah, a strong offensive is the best defensive, so everything is defensive and thus every army is using nothing but defensive things - defensive lascannons, defensive smashas, defensive haywire guns, defensive smites, defensive snipers, defensive smash captains, defensive bloodletter bomb...
Oh, and marines can have a 4++ and a -1 to hit, and yet that color of marines has the worst win percentage. Which mean your thesis of 5++ being an "insane defensive debuff" is objectively wrong.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lemondish wrote: The more I play actual Warhammer with the CA18 missions, the more I find it to be superior to ITCHammer with it's house rules and meta defining secondary objectives.
A pity others haven't given it a shot. Same goes for the Urban Conquest rules - those are amazing.
Agree, CA2018 has by far the best missions.
Sorry bud. When a unit should be getting no save at all but instead gets a 5++ save which is undeniable it is "an insane defensive buff". If it's so terrible why does every ork list include it? Most I see include more than 1. Plus if you read my response I said "used to get abused" meaning I understand that grot shield got slightly nerfed.
Marines have been overcosted all edition. They basically gave every unit in the army -1 AP and +1 A + a special bonus rule + improved chapter tactics and they probably are one of the best armies in the game right now but DA don't have any of that yet. Just wait. Azreal buffed units with these bonuses will be literally insane.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/20 17:41:04
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Sorry bud. When a unit should be getting no save at all but instead gets a 5++ save which is undeniable it is "an insane defensive buff". If it's so terrible why does every ork list include it? Most I see include more than 1. Plus if you read my response I said "used to get abused" meaning I understand that grot shield got slightly nerfed.
Because when you can give your army a chance of not being shot straight off the board, as opposed to guaranteeing that they'll be shot straight off the board, you take the chance. Even when its a bad one.
Marines have been overcosted all edition. They basically gave every unit in the army -1 AP and +1 A + a special bonus rule + improved chapter tactics and they probably are one of the best armies in the game right now but DA don't have any of that yet. Just wait. Azreal buffed units with these bonuses will be literally insane.
You heard it here first folks, Dark Angels with a doctrine are broken OP already.
3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
You know a long time back, I used to think, because when I started getting terminators that they had the 5++ because they were just so hardcore they shrugged the damage off. When I discovered it was an energy field, my sadness was real.
That small story aside, the hyperbole is so huge on some fear mongering right now. Can we at least wait till we hear how Imperial Fists will be the real broken OP ? I don't have it in me to keep being so afraid every marine drop and I keep banging my knees jumping on and off all these bandwagons.
I need to wait and see which bandwagon is the true OP one to jump on heading straight for the top.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/09/21 00:27:20
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.
The entire daemons codex disagrees.
7 Ork facts people always get wrong: Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other. A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot. Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests. Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books. Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor. Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers. Orks do not have the power of believe.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: 3+ with a 5++ on a 12 point model is somehow REALLY good...
However, a 6+ 7 point model getting a 5+ is somehow bad? Man some of y'all need to learn to calculate how much better that is.
The entire daemons codex disagrees.
Daemons start with the 5++ in the first place compared to Orks, so your point being?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
