Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Breton wrote:

In 5th/6th you were told to do that. I feel pretty sorry for people who made successor chapter Dark Angels, they're just getting bent over by GW now. Can't take Sammael, can't (easily) make their own bike captain...

They can just use the DARK ANGELS keyword. Paint doesn't affect rules.

If they wanted to just be Dark Angels they would have just painted Dark Angels. They wanted to be Angels of Absolution to be different. A little.

Breton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Breton wrote:

In 5th/6th you were told to do that. I feel pretty sorry for people who made successor chapter Dark Angels, they're just getting bent over by GW now. Can't take Sammael, can't (easily) make their own bike captain...

They can just use the DARK ANGELS keyword. Paint doesn't affect rules.

If they wanted to just be Dark Angels they would have just painted Dark Angels. They wanted to be Angels of Absolution to be different. A little.

I paint my Death Guard white, my Typhus does the same thing he has always done despite not being green.
You paint your Dark Angels white, your Azreal becomes an Illegal model because he is not green.
Wait, what?

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Breton wrote:

In 5th/6th you were told to do that. I feel pretty sorry for people who made successor chapter Dark Angels, they're just getting bent over by GW now. Can't take Sammael, can't (easily) make their own bike captain...

They can just use the DARK ANGELS keyword. Paint doesn't affect rules.

If they wanted to just be Dark Angels they would have just painted Dark Angels. They wanted to be Angels of Absolution to be different. A little.

I paint my Death Guard white, my Typhus does the same thing he has always done despite not being green.
You paint your Dark Angels white, your Azreal becomes an Illegal model because he is not green.
Wait, what?

I know we're having hagfish soup for lunch today, and you wanted tomato. Just pretend your hagfish mucus is tomato.

There are people who made the successor chapter because they didn't want to make the primogenitor chapter, they were told just use the named character and fluff it out yourself because each chapter has one of these archetype characters. Now they don't. But those players are still sitting on the successor chapter they wanted, and now they're being told just eat the snot and call it tomato.

Taking an Ultra Marines painted army and saying it is Iron Hands is kinda, uh? Those two chapters are iconic, and have an iconic look. Does that mean I take a blob of 12 Wyches and call them Harlequins because it's kinda close?

Breton wrote:

I know we're having hagfish soup for lunch today, and you wanted tomato. Just pretend your hagfish mucus is tomato.

There are people who made the successor chapter because they didn't want to make the primogenitor chapter, they were told just use the named character and fluff it out yourself because each chapter has one of these archetype characters. Now they don't. But those players are still sitting on the successor chapter they wanted, and now they're being told just eat the snot and call it tomato.

That is a silly complaint, especially in this specific instance. Nothing changed. Previously they had the exact same rules than Dark Angels, and could use the same characters and only were painted differently. All of this is still true, you only need to write 'Dark Angels' keyword in your armylist.

Now, I really think that successors should have better support and there should be generic chapter masters they could take and equip like they wanted, but that wasn't the case previously either.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Elfric wrote:
Taking an Ultra Marines painted army and saying it is Iron Hands is kinda, uh? Those two chapters are iconic, and have an iconic look. Does that mean I take a blob of 12 Wyches and call them Harlequins because it's kinda close?

No, but you can call them some other wych cult that has canonically different paint scheme.

Spoletta wrote:


Doesn't matter.

To kill 10 models with a 6+ you need 12 wounds.
To kill 10 models with a 5+ you need 15 wounds.

15/12= 1,25

5+ is 25% more effective than 6+.

Well, that's a weird way to present it.

A 6+ saves 16.7%
A 5+ saves 33%

Therefore a 5+ is twice as good as a 6+. You kind of backed into a different kind of number with that scenario.

1 wound * .833 = .833 wounds taken
1 wound * .666 = .666 wounds taken

(.833 - .666) / .833 = 20% fewer wounds taken

When you look at the negative space:

1 wound * .167 = .167 wounds saved
1 wound * .333 = .333 wounds saved

(.333 - .167) / .167 = 100% more wounds saved

Breton wrote:
I know we're having hagfish soup for lunch today, and you wanted tomato. Just pretend your hagfish mucus is tomato.

See, this is where you are wrong. You have the choice between tomato soup and Khorne's bloody slaughter soup, which is also tomato soup, but requires to punch yourself in the face after each spoon.

There are people who made the successor chapter because they didn't want to make the primogenitor chapter, they were told just use the named character and fluff it out yourself because each chapter has one of these archetype characters. Now they don't. But those players are still sitting on the successor chapter they wanted, and now they're being told just eat the snot and call it tomato.

Literally the only difference between using your own successor paint scheme and your archetype character with an ANGEL OF ABSOLUTION keyword and using the very same models with the DARK ANGELS keyword is not insisting on punching yourself in the face.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
I know we're having hagfish soup for lunch today, and you wanted tomato. Just pretend your hagfish mucus is tomato.

See, this is where you are wrong. You have the choice between tomato soup and Khorne's bloody slaughter soup, which is also tomato soup, but requires to punch yourself in the face after each spoon.

There are people who made the successor chapter because they didn't want to make the primogenitor chapter, they were told just use the named character and fluff it out yourself because each chapter has one of these archetype characters. Now they don't. But those players are still sitting on the successor chapter they wanted, and now they're being told just eat the snot and call it tomato.

Literally the only difference between using your own successor paint scheme and your archetype character with an ANGEL OF ABSOLUTION keyword and using the very same models with the DARK ANGELS keyword is not insisting on punching yourself in the face.

It's a punch in the metaphorical face.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are just making stuff up now - Where did I say that KFF is as OP as 3++ Castellans?

I suggest reading your own posts. Preferably before you hit "submit".

 Xenomancers wrote:
This is how the game works man. If you can see a unit. You can kill it. This is why defensive armies do the best.
Ynnari made a unit of shinning spears indestructable and destroyed your whole army with it.
Castellan knight goes 3++ and destroys your whole army
Deathgaurd army everything has 5++ and 5+++ and sits on objectives with PB
TS army buffs tzangors to be indestructble and fight twice with them destroying your army.

Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Find me a competitive army (that consistently wins) that isn't utilizing some sort of crazy defensive buff?

Orks.

KFF is an insane defensive buff.

Also - if you aren't using a KFF - you are actively gimping yourself. I am sure of it. KFF is basically mandatory as orks.

I suggest you watch an actual game played by a good ork player before we continue this discussion - there are plenty of streams available. I have no interest in discussing a meta and tactics that only exist in your head. I just wish you would stop spreading misinformation.

I play against good ork players. KFF is MANDATORY. Im more than happy to say I'm just smarter than them if they can't figure out how good a KFF is. Also orks are a very unique situation because basically every choice in their codex is good outside of a few units. Unlike most codex where only 20% of units are actually good. That is a good thing but I could care less what "good ork players" are using. I could win with a selection of random units from that codex. It is a really good army and the KFF is literally the only unit should not consider not taking.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I could win with a selection of random units from that codex. It is a really good army and the KFF is literally the only unit should not consider not taking.

I'd like to take you up on that bet. You get as many KFF as you want and I provide you with the rest of the list, exclusively made of units you have claimed to be awesome in your posts since the codex dropped with the relevant posts provided as proof(this includes burnas, kanz and warbikers).

If I win that game you have to write a thorough apology about how you have no clue about orks and never lose a word about them ever again. If you win, I'll do the same.

Do you need plane tickets?

Tabletop Simulator should suffice

 Jidmah wrote:
Tabletop Simulator should suffice

Does this actually work well? I've heard it's okay from some and horrible from others.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Tabletop Simulator should suffice

Does this actually work well? I've heard it's okay from some and horrible from others.

I find it works fine, as long as you're willing to accept you'll never be WYSIWYG and to avoid too many 3 level ruins.

Totally off topic but "could care less" means you actually care to some degree. If you couldn't care less, the levels of caring are already minimal.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


Doesn't matter.

To kill 10 models with a 6+ you need 12 wounds.
To kill 10 models with a 5+ you need 15 wounds.

15/12= 1,25

5+ is 25% more effective than 6+.

Well, that's a weird way to present it.

A 6+ saves 16.7%
A 5+ saves 33%

Therefore a 5+ is twice as good as a 6+. You kind of backed into a different kind of number with that scenario.

1 wound * .833 = .833 wounds taken
1 wound * .666 = .666 wounds taken

(.833 - .666) / .833 = 20% fewer wounds taken

When you look at the negative space:

1 wound * .167 = .167 wounds saved
1 wound * .333 = .333 wounds saved

(.333 - .167) / .167 = 100% more wounds saved

Yeah, you can look at in many ways, but i think that the resulting effective wounds are the most important parameter.

 Jidmah wrote:

Breton wrote:
I know we're having hagfish soup for lunch today, and you wanted tomato. Just pretend your hagfish mucus is tomato.

See, this is where you are wrong. You have the choice between tomato soup and Khorne's bloody slaughter soup, which is also tomato soup, but requires to punch yourself in the face after each spoon.

There are people who made the successor chapter because they didn't want to make the primogenitor chapter, they were told just use the named character and fluff it out yourself because each chapter has one of these archetype characters. Now they don't. But those players are still sitting on the successor chapter they wanted, and now they're being told just eat the snot and call it tomato.

Literally the only difference between using your own successor paint scheme and your archetype character with an ANGEL OF ABSOLUTION keyword and using the very same models with the DARK ANGELS keyword is not insisting on punching yourself in the face.

True. I got the Kayvaan Shrike model but because my dudes are a space wolves successor chapter (I switched from SW to White Scars and Raven Guard (depending on my mood) because I could not figure out how to get them in CC reliably) fluffwise he'll get a Primaris Space Wolf head but crunchwise he and the rest of my army will be pure Raven Guard if I field him.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Tabletop Simulator should suffice

Does this actually work well? I've heard it's okay from some and horrible from others.

To be honest, playing one of the DoW games is probably a more enjoyable experience if you just want to spend time.
However, if the person you want to play is not able to meat you in real live, or doesn't have the models to play, it's a decent solution. Kind of like how video conference software is still inferior to actually meeting in person, but works well enough.

Spoletta wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Spoletta wrote:


Doesn't matter.

To kill 10 models with a 6+ you need 12 wounds.
To kill 10 models with a 5+ you need 15 wounds.

15/12= 1,25

5+ is 25% more effective than 6+.

Well, that's a weird way to present it.

A 6+ saves 16.7%
A 5+ saves 33%

Therefore a 5+ is twice as good as a 6+. You kind of backed into a different kind of number with that scenario.

1 wound * .833 = .833 wounds taken
1 wound * .666 = .666 wounds taken

(.833 - .666) / .833 = 20% fewer wounds taken

When you look at the negative space:

1 wound * .167 = .167 wounds saved
1 wound * .333 = .333 wounds saved

(.333 - .167) / .167 = 100% more wounds saved

Yeah, you can look at in many ways, but i think that the resulting effective wounds are the most important parameter.

Neither is more important and both are valid, its perspective:

Ork player "my models are twice as durable now, I'll twice as many"
Other player "I need to do 25% more wounds to wipe that unit now"

The thing is, people tend to do the math from the perspective that fits their argument better (usually to generate smaller numbers), or even worse mix the two perspectives.

Breton wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Breton wrote:

In 5th/6th you were told to do that. I feel pretty sorry for people who made successor chapter Dark Angels, they're just getting bent over by GW now. Can't take Sammael, can't (easily) make their own bike captain...

They can just use the DARK ANGELS keyword. Paint doesn't affect rules.

If they wanted to just be Dark Angels they would have just painted Dark Angels. They wanted to be Angels of Absolution to be different. A little.

I'm old enough to remember the 4th ed DA release- where White Dwarf US had GD winners convert up successor versions of the DA characters, and the results were published and later placed on the website.

It's kind of hilarious that this is a fairly uniquely Space Marine problem and it is probably a direct result of them being spammed by GW all the time. Nobody cares or even knows the differences between the different xenos paint schemes. The non-marine Chaos/Imperial factions are largely the same way. You wanna use Vostroyan rules with your Cadian models? No Problem. Blue Cawl? No problem. Blue Iron Hands? WAAAAAAAAAAAC

I'm almost tempted to create a poll:

"Do you know Gorgon Hyvefleet colour scheme?"

Spoletta wrote:
I'm almost tempted to create a poll:

"Do you know Gorgon Hyvefleet colour scheme?"

Forget that. Ask about a slightly more obscure Splinter Fleet!

 Jidmah wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I could win with a selection of random units from that codex. It is a really good army and the KFF is literally the only unit should not consider not taking.

I'd like to take you up on that bet. You get as many KFF as you want and I provide you with the rest of the list, exclusively made of units you have claimed to be awesome in your posts since the codex dropped with the relevant posts provided as proof(this includes burnas, kanz and warbikers).

If I win that game you have to write a thorough apology about how you have no clue about orks and never lose a word about them ever again. If you win, I'll do the same.

I have no desire to play a simulated game.
http://bloodofkittens.com/8th-edition-top-army-list-compendium/

One need only look at the myriad of Tournament lists (several 1,2,3 Tournament finishes at GT's for orks also.) Heck...As many as imperial knights and Astra Militarium. It's pretty clear orks are top contenders. In almost every case they write their list with a KFF first and really the only ones that don't use one are the lists that are using 3 kultures which makes sense...Yet you claim the KFF is terrible and don't even include it...These guys are winning GT's with it...it is clearly great.

Hillarious, xeno,

 DominayTrix wrote:
It's kind of hilarious that this is a fairly uniquely Space Marine problem and it is probably a direct result of them being spammed by GW all the time. Nobody cares or even knows the differences between the different xenos paint schemes. The non-marine Chaos/Imperial factions are largely the same way. You wanna use Vostroyan rules with your Cadian models? No Problem. Blue Cawl? No problem. Blue Iron Hands? WAAAAAAAAAAAC

That is a great point. It's why no one creates a post like "am I ashamed to run my 3 hemlocks in an aliotoc fly wing?" Ofc they aren't. Because no other army has so much stupid snow flake identity crisis. I personally despise it but I love space marines in general. I'd love to not be bitter about it but It makes me outright mad that an ironhand tank is so much better than my Ultramarine tank...It is literally the same damn tank. Plus it's not like an Ultramarine tech marine (or any other tech marine) isn't a forge master and knows how to fix his vehicles ether...The game has gone too far with these army trait extremes.

 Xenomancers wrote:
I have no desire to play a simulated game.

Thats confidence right there kids.

 Xenomancers wrote:

One need only look at the myriad of Tournament lists (several 1,2,3 Tournament finishes at GT's for orks also.) Heck...As many as imperial knights and Astra Militarium. It's pretty clear orks are top contenders. In almost every case they write their list with a KFF first and really the only ones that don't use one are the lists that are using 3 kultures which makes sense...Yet you claim the KFF is terrible and don't even include it...These guys are winning GT's with it...it is clearly great.

Because I'm apparently a glutton for punishment, I dove into the Ork lists. Its about a 60-65% utilization rate for KFFs. Only a handful bring more than one.

That aint remotely close to"almost every case".

Bonus points for the "it was in a GT winning list, it must be AMAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGGGG" logical fallacy. Keep up the good work.

 Xenomancers wrote:

That is a great point. It's why no one creates a post like "am I ashamed to run my 3 hemlocks in an aliotoc fly wing?" Ofc they aren't. Because no other army has so much stupid snow flake identity crisis. I personally despise it but I love space marines in general. I'd love to not be bitter about it but It makes me outright mad that an ironhand tank is so much better than my Ultramarine tank...It is literally the same damn tank. Plus it's not like an Ultramarine tech marine (or any other tech marine) isn't a forge master and knows how to fix his vehicles ether...The game has gone too far with these army trait extremes.

The cognitive dissonance in the space of a single paragraph could shatter planets.

Now now Sterling.
Don't you know that you need a reality first to achieve such an effect

Sterling191 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
I have no desire to play a simulated game.

Thats confidence right there kids.

 Xenomancers wrote:

One need only look at the myriad of Tournament lists (several 1,2,3 Tournament finishes at GT's for orks also.) Heck...As many as imperial knights and Astra Militarium. It's pretty clear orks are top contenders. In almost every case they write their list with a KFF first and really the only ones that don't use one are the lists that are using 3 kultures which makes sense...Yet you claim the KFF is terrible and don't even include it...These guys are winning GT's with it...it is clearly great.

Because I'm apparently a glutton for punishment, I dove into the Ork lists. Its about a 60-65% utilization rate for KFFs. Only a handful bring more than one.

That aint remotely close to"almost every case".

Bonus points for the "it was in a GT winning list, it must be AMAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZIIIIIINNNNNNNGGGGGGG" logical fallacy. Keep up the good work.

 Xenomancers wrote:

That is a great point. It's why no one creates a post like "am I ashamed to run my 3 hemlocks in an aliotoc fly wing?" Ofc they aren't. Because no other army has so much stupid snow flake identity crisis. I personally despise it but I love space marines in general. I'd love to not be bitter about it but It makes me outright mad that an ironhand tank is so much better than my Ultramarine tank...It is literally the same damn tank. Plus it's not like an Ultramarine tech marine (or any other tech marine) isn't a forge master and knows how to fix his vehicles ether...The game has gone too far with these army trait extremes.

The cognitive dissonance in the space of a single paragraph could shatter planets.

Uhhh.. even if your 65% figure was accurate (its not - it's much higher) It would still represent the majority of tournament winning lists - you could make a bill law with those kinds of numbers. You have no argument. None. You are pretty much wrong about everything - you don't even understand what cognitive dissonance means. Please show me which thought above is inconsistent with itself?

Also the no desire to play a simulated game has a lot to do with the fact that I only play 40k on the table top. I don't want to play it any other way because that isn't how the game is supposed to be played.