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 insaniak wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
My actual issue was "why did they have the cavalry on hand to deploy them anyway if they weren't expecting to make a cavalry charge?".

They were originally supposed to deploy on the ground.

I got the impression it was sort of a "take us with you!" moment when Finn left the Water Moon, followed by "and don't forget our livestock!".

Redoing Dark Empire was fine. There's honestly a lot of ideas I liked in the film. Having Palpatine back as a mutual problem for Kylo and Rey works pretty well and taking it as far as the Dark Side being a possessing entity fills in a lot of RotJs "something something Dark Side" dialog fairly well. The main issue is just that it doesn't do anything interesting with that idea. A big part of that is just that Rey Palpatine isn't really a compelling motivation for it. It's exactly why any sort of lineage reveal for her was destined to feel a little pointless. Had Kylo been faced with the same choice; the full power of the Dark Side at the cost of his own autonomy and power, it would have made for a more compelling conflict. A lot of my issues with the end of the film come down more to wanting some bigger ideas out of it; particularly post TLJ.

Which is why all the "revealing" should of been done in the last film. That's just basic writing when it comes to a Trilogy.

1st Film - Introduce the Heroes/Villains
2nd Film - Put them in the worst possible situation ever! OMG there is not hope of getting out!
3rd Film - They get out

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:
Which is why all the "revealing" should of been done in the last film. That's just basic writing when it comes to a Trilogy.

1st Film - Introduce the Heroes/Villains
2nd Film - Put them in the worst possible situation ever! OMG there is not hope of getting out!
3rd Film - They get out

They revealed plenty. JJ just decided to waste his time revealing more to the benefit of nothing. Rey Palpatine would have been just as underwhelming in the 2nd for the same reasons its underwhelming the 3rd. It feels obligatory. It was a cool surprise 40 years ago because it was a surprise. There was never going to be an answer that was satisfying in the same way. It was always going to be a "father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate" because the surprise was mainstream enough to be a parody 33 years ago. That's why Kylo is ultimately the best character in the new trilogy. By owning his role as a pale imitation of Vader, we get something as compelling as the original. Rey's initial reveal was as disappointing as Kylo; had they owned up to it, there would have been potential to make something just as interesting.

 insaniak wrote:
I'm done trying to discuss this all with people who are determined to dislike the movie.

You make it sound that I want to dislike it. I don't. I truly wish I enjoyed it, that I could see it as a good movie, but I can't, in the same way I don't find the latest Transformers film a good movie. I'm happy you enjoy it yourself, and I have no interest in saying "you're wrong for enjoying this" or "you're just determined to enjoy it", but on the flip side, if I'm talking about things that didn't work for me, and my potential solutions, you saying "you're determined to dislike it" feels very reductive.

I dislike the film not because I want to dislike it, but because the film isn't enjoyable for me.

You can choose to poke holes in it and demand answers, or you can do what we all did back when we were kids, and fill in the blanks yourself.

When I was a kid, we had the prequels, and both then and now, I've never felt a need to "fill in the blanks" myself, or demand answers. I've never felt narratively cheated or left scratching my head about space logistics because of them. Did they have their problems, yes, but they never made me think "hold on, if they can do this, why didn't X do Y later?" or "hang on, how did this happen?"* The faults of the prequels aren't the same faults as the sequels. And, for what it's worth, I'd rather watch the prequels any time over the sequels, because I enjoy them a great deal more.

*even in the scene in RotS where those words are literally said verbatim.

 LunarSol wrote:

They revealed plenty. JJ just decided to waste his time revealing more to the benefit of nothing. Rey Palpatine would have been just as underwhelming in the 2nd for the same reasons its underwhelming the 3rd. It feels obligatory. It was a cool surprise 40 years ago because it was a surprise. There was never going to be an answer that was satisfying in the same way. It was always going to be a "father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate" because the surprise was mainstream enough to be a parody 33 years ago. That's why Kylo is ultimately the best character in the new trilogy. By owning his role as a pale imitation of Vader, we get something as compelling as the original. Rey's initial reveal was as disappointing as Kylo; had they owned up to it, there would have been potential to make something just as interesting.

That's not what I mean. I mean any reveal should of happened in the 2nd film because that is how you write 3 act plays. Whether it was a smart decision or not is irrelevant. I was quite happy with Rey just being a nobody who was awakened in the force to help balance it against Kylo and the First Order. Any 2nd act Reveal (whatever that reveal ended up being) should of been the main plot point for the third film. Instead we got nothing which is why they had to speed run plot points in the first 40 minutes of the movie to setup what the whole conflict the trilogy is suppose to be about.

Yes and I agree Kylo going "I'm not Vader, I will never be Vader. I'm me." is very compelling and makes his character arc the most interesting in the whole serious because, funnily enough, unlike Vader he had the guts to actually kill his Master and take control. That's something in an apprentice Palpatine had been looking for for ages.

 Commodus Leitdorf wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

They revealed plenty. JJ just decided to waste his time revealing more to the benefit of nothing. Rey Palpatine would have been just as underwhelming in the 2nd for the same reasons its underwhelming the 3rd. It feels obligatory. It was a cool surprise 40 years ago because it was a surprise. There was never going to be an answer that was satisfying in the same way. It was always going to be a "father's brother's nephew's cousin's former roommate" because the surprise was mainstream enough to be a parody 33 years ago. That's why Kylo is ultimately the best character in the new trilogy. By owning his role as a pale imitation of Vader, we get something as compelling as the original. Rey's initial reveal was as disappointing as Kylo; had they owned up to it, there would have been potential to make something just as interesting.

That's not what I mean. I mean any reveal should of happened in the 2nd film because that is how you write 3 act plays. Whether it was a smart decision or not is irrelevant. I was quite happy with Rey just being a nobody who was awakened in the force to help balance it against Kylo and the First Order. Any 2nd act Reveal (whatever that reveal ended up being) should of been the main plot point for the third film. Instead we got nothing which is why they had to speed run plot points in the first 40 minutes of the movie to setup what the whole conflict the trilogy is suppose to be about.

Yes and I agree Kylo going "I'm not Vader, I will never be Vader. I'm me." is very compelling and makes his character arc the most interesting in the whole serious because, funnily enough, unlike Vader he had the guts to actually kill his Master and take control. That's something in an apprentice Palpatine had been looking for for ages.

It depends. Palp would still make for a fine 3rd act reveal. He's teased in 7 and reinforced in 8 and works well as a continuation of Kylo's story as well as something of an ultimate totem for the themes of both of the first two films. There's actually a lot I really love about how he's inserted into 9, but ultimately rewinding the cast to vastly less interesting versions of themselves means Palpatine doesn't get to be as compelling as he could be. In many ways, its like we got a version of RotJ where Palpatine toys with the emotions of the "awwwww, but I don't wanna turn to the Dark Side" Luke from A New Hope.

Backfire wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Like...this whole time palpatine has been hiding in a secrete system building 500 star destroyers with planet destroying lasers? Like...that should have been the original plan right? 500 deathstars is a lot better than 1. Never mind the fact how the heck do you even man 500 star destroyers in without anyone knowing about it? Etherway this makes the entire story a complete waste of time. Starkillerbase? Nah...500 planet killing star destroyers.

Planet killer trope has really got tired in Star Wars and sequels make it even worse to the point of self-parody. It is now like LEXX where the crew eventually began to blow up planets just to amuse themselves.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Jezz...It wasn't TLJ bad but it had other faults of it's own. TLJ at least looked amazing I just don't care too much about that. This film though looked really Janky at times...especially the strobe effects on palpatine. Also Palpatine looked pretty terrible.

Well with (un)life history of his, understandable he wouldn't be a looker.

My problem was that he SOUNDED terrible. Palpatine was always awesome speaker. Even in the prequels where everyone else sounded like a robot, he had always great lines and good delivery. But here, he was just banal, like they brought Dr Evil as a serious villain for James Bond movie.

Agreed - he didn't sound great ether.

I repeat, a lot of this blame falls on Kennedy, who really should have done a better job, yes he made a LOT up on the fly but Lucas had some rough ideas for each trilogy, Kennedy seemed to be very "ohh whatever you think works" Disney absolutely should have had a lose outline for the trilogy planned. it didn't need to be anything major but some rough data points would have been good.

but sort of a guide as to where they're going would be important. Rey's parentage should have been figured, even if not set in stone. and she definatly should have had a herritage, it's part of the theme of star wars.

George Lucas in 1977 also didn't have to follow up on the original trilogy or fit his new films into a larger cinematic universe...

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
George Lucas in 1977 also didn't have to follow up on the original trilogy or fit his new films into a larger cinematic universe...

and despite winging things did have a rough plan for the saga.

 LunarSol wrote:


It depends. Palp would still make for a fine 3rd act reveal. He's teased in 7 and reinforced in 8 ...

Is he? I never got that impression at all. Everything in those movies points towards Snoke being the new Emperor figure until he's unceremoniously offed, then Kylo takes over, which incidentally is a much more compelling story to tell than the one we eventually got. Brining the Emperor into the final film was one of my biggest gripes for a while host of reasons. He's not been set up beforehand at all. The whole "Rey is his granddaughter" reveal is annoying because as far as anyone who's seen all the SW films knows Palps never had any kids and his whole involvement is completely out of the blue in the first place. Also, let's not forget the convenient handwave of "yeah, he totally survived that fall down that shaft and the total destruction of the Death Star as well". TBH, it's a typical JJ reveal: unexpected because it's completely unearned and in many way illogical.

I thought the movie as a whole was vaguely enjoyable in parts but things seemed to happen for little reason and the plot was pretty much nonsensical. Overall I'd describe the movie as unsatisfying and well below average. It seemed to favour spectacle over any form of coherent writing and while I get that it's basically a big-budget blockbuster, what set the OT apart from other similar movies was that the story was actually compelling and the characters interesting. Having said that, I'd give a shout-out to Adam Driver who I thought did a great job with Kylo. I'd have greatly preferred a trilogy with him as the central character rather than Rey.

Slipspace wrote:
Having said that, I'd give a shout-out to Adam Driver who I thought did a great job with Kylo. I'd have greatly preferred a trilogy with him as the central character rather than Rey.

By this you mean him as the main protagonist, I assume. Because he was certainly a central character of the trilogy.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Slipspace wrote:
Having said that, I'd give a shout-out to Adam Driver who I thought did a great job with Kylo. I'd have greatly preferred a trilogy with him as the central character rather than Rey.

By this you mean him as the main protagonist, I assume. Because he was certainly a central character of the trilogy.

Yes, basically switch him and Rey in terms of screen time and importance to the story. It's the kind of creative risk you won't get out of a Disney movie though so it was always going to be unlikely. In a similar vein, the brief glimpse we got of Darkside Rey seemed infinitely more interesting as a character arc than what we ended up with for her but, again, you're not going to get Disney to sign off on that story.

Slipspace wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:


It depends. Palp would still make for a fine 3rd act reveal. He's teased in 7 and reinforced in 8 ...

Is he? I never got that impression at all. Everything in those movies points towards Snoke being the new Emperor figure until he's unceremoniously offed, then Kylo takes over, which incidentally is a much more compelling story to tell than the one we eventually got. Brining the Emperor into the final film was one of my biggest gripes for a while host of reasons. He's not been set up beforehand at all.

In 7, Maz comments about the secret darkness from the beyond the outer rim. It's not necessarily Palpatine but its implied to be the source of the Sith. I actually wondered if they were going to bring in the Star Forge (and they kind of did), but the idea of the master of the Sith being a collective power of sorts could work as well if it was handled better. Luke specifically calls out Palp in 8 and while it could have been hinted further, the two are fine enough threads for me. It just needed to be handled better in a lot of ways.

The one dumb bit about it is trying to make something of the "strike me down in anger". If that had been the goal in 6 it would have already happened. Luke snaps and takes a swing that Vader blocks. Palpatine had no intention of being killed by Luke. He was just goading him to lose control.

Slipspace wrote:
The whole "Rey is his granddaughter" reveal is annoying because as far as anyone who's seen all the SW films knows Palps never had any kids and his whole involvement is completely out of the blue in the first place. Also, let's not forget the convenient handwave of "yeah, he totally survived that fall down that shaft and the total destruction of the Death Star as well". TBH, it's a typical JJ reveal: unexpected because it's completely unearned and in many way illogical.

I don't disagree with this. I was terrified when they brought JJ back entirely because while I think he's a great pitch man, he's just not the guy to finish off a story.

Slipspace wrote:

I thought the movie as a whole was vaguely enjoyable in parts but things seemed to happen for little reason and the plot was pretty much nonsensical. Overall I'd describe the movie as unsatisfying and well below average. It seemed to favour spectacle over any form of coherent writing and while I get that it's basically a big-budget blockbuster, what set the OT apart from other similar movies was that the story was actually compelling and the characters interesting.

^That sums up my feelings too. TRoS was a spectacle movie and it offered plenty of it. I have been listing its faults here (and I'm not even halfway through but I think I will give up because meh) but I won't say that movie was torture or worst thing ever, or even worst Abrams film. It had many good scenes and nice lines, but when you string them up together, they do not make up a coherent or meaningful story.
TRoS is like when you ask your kid what kind of birthday cake she wants, and she lists absolutely every ingredient which she likes and result is a gross mountain of sugar nobody can eat more than a spoonful without barfing.

 LunarSol wrote:

Slipspace wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:


It depends. Palp would still make for a fine 3rd act reveal. He's teased in 7 and reinforced in 8 ...

Is he? I never got that impression at all. Everything in those movies points towards Snoke being the new Emperor figure until he's unceremoniously offed, then Kylo takes over, which incidentally is a much more compelling story to tell than the one we eventually got. Brining the Emperor into the final film was one of my biggest gripes for a while host of reasons. He's not been set up beforehand at all.

In 7, Maz comments about the secret darkness from the beyond the outer rim. It's not necessarily Palpatine but its implied to be the source of the Sith. I actually wondered if they were going to bring in the Star Forge (and they kind of did), but the idea of the master of the Sith being a collective power of sorts could work as well if it was handled better. Luke specifically calls out Palp in 8 and while it could have been hinted further, the two are fine enough threads for me. It just needed to be handled better in a lot of ways.
.

Eh. That's problematic at best.
For someone who's only familiar with the movies 'beyond the out rim' is a meaningless reference.

For people who are familiar with various books and games, its actively a red herring (assuming JJ had even thought of Palpatine during TFA, which I'm honestly dubious about). If you're familiar with the Thrawn stuff, Palpatine was terrified of whatever was out in the Unexplored Regions (not the Outer Rim, which is the other direction), to the point that he put his Better than Bestest Admiral out there on patrol with an entire battlefleet. KotoR era stuff has the 'True Sith' out there that the lesser sith who bother the Old Republic are terrified of, because there is an actual immortal/godlike Sith Emperor and the Sith species (which isn't actually that big a deal because game balance).

So that sort of reference isn't a thread, but a problem. It refers to people and things that specifically aren't Palpatine.

Got around to seeing this last Monday.
Considering I thought the first film was ok and the second trash I was actually pleasantly surprised.
I thought it was pacier than the previous films, tied up some loose ends without being too cheesy and again had some nice homages to the originals.
Was it a brilliant end to a great trilogy? Not on your nelly but taking it for what it simply is - Star Wars - it wasnt bad.

As an aside, Im not a huge fan of the SW lore etc so if they were to go on and make another trilogy what/who would be the big threat now that the Empire, Order, Sith and Palpatine are fish food?

Voss wrote:

Eh. That's problematic at best.
For someone who's only familiar with the movies 'beyond the out rim' is a meaningless reference.

For people who are familiar with various books and games, its actively a red herring (assuming JJ had even thought of Palpatine during TFA, which I'm honestly dubious about). If you're familiar with the Thrawn stuff, Palpatine was terrified of whatever was out in the Unexplored Regions (not the Outer Rim, which is the other direction), to the point that he put his Better than Bestest Admiral out there on patrol with an entire battlefleet. KotoR era stuff has the 'True Sith' out there that the lesser sith who bother the Old Republic are terrified of, because there is an actual immortal/godlike Sith Emperor and the Sith species (which isn't actually that big a deal because game balance).

So that sort of reference isn't a thread, but a problem. It refers to people and things that specifically aren't Palpatine.

Sure, but Palpatine is also quite capable of carrying that mantle. We also really, really, really, really don't need what Thrawn was out there to stop being reintroduced into cannon.

What we NEED is a KOTOR era trilogy so there is no baggage from any of the trilogies to taint it. Just some really cool Jedi vs. Sith action, with both ground battles and fleet battles galore.

 Ratius wrote:
As an aside, Im not a huge fan of the SW lore etc so if they were to go on and make another trilogy what/who would be the big threat now that the Empire, Order, Sith and Palpatine are fish food?

If they were to hand such a trilogy to J.J. Abrams it'd be Palpatine again who is now all the Sith plus one. And he has a giant death laser dangling between his legs.

 LunarSol wrote:


Sure, but Palpatine is also quite capable of carrying that mantle.

He isn't, particularly.

Per the prequels, he's just some guy from Naboo who turned out to be an evil wizard, and got an Evil Magic Scars makeover from the backlash of his own lightning. And then goes to the OT to die.

Per the OT, he's an evil wizard that died rather conclusively. Fell multiple stories, exploded, and then the space station he was in exploded even more. So he fell to his death and exploded, twice. That isn't 'you should've checked the body territory,' that's we watched him die, get atomized, and then pieces of the place he died were scattered across local muppet space. He was even more dead than a Norwegian Blue.

As a 'secret threat' for the new trilogy, he's non-present and then a pure wtf moment built on gibberish and whistled out of the emptiness that comes from lacking an overarching plot.

Finally saw the movie and it is so, so, so much better than The Last Jedi.

Optimism over cynicism any day.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
What we NEED is a KOTOR era trilogy so there is no baggage from any of the trilogies to taint it. Just some really cool Jedi vs. Sith action, with both ground battles and fleet battles galore.

I'd rather Disney not contaminate the Old Republic era. Leave that alone, let the fans have this. Disney already changed the Expanded Universe elsewhere and changed the canon and setting rules enough there. The Old Republic should be the sacred playground, the big sandbox.

 Compel wrote:

Optimism over cynicism any day.

And yet, its blasphemy not to consider ESB the best of the OT...

 AegisGrimm wrote:
What we NEED is a KOTOR era trilogy so there is no baggage from any of the trilogies to taint it. Just some really cool Jedi vs. Sith action, with both ground battles and fleet battles galore.

The ToR cinematics made by Blur prove that this would be an awesome spectacle to see. Whether or not the writing is good is a separate issue.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
I'd rather Disney not contaminate the Old Republic era. Leave that alone, let the fans have this. Disney already changed the Expanded Universe elsewhere and changed the canon and setting rules enough there. The Old Republic should be the sacred playground, the big sandbox.

I kinda agree with this sentiment. I'm not sure Disney is willing to take the risks this franchise needs in order to make a good trilogy. They obviously want to play it safe (made evident by their first saga), and a KOTOR trilogy done wrong would sour a lot of fans, possibly even more than they currently have so far.

As much as I like RoS and the sequel trilogy as a whole (which seems to be in the EXTREME minority on this site), I do agree that moving away from the Saga era would be a good idea. There's TONs of material to mine from for inspired stories.

I've got my fingers crossed for Keanu Reeves as Darth Revan

-

 Galef wrote:
As much as I like RoS and the sequel trilogy as a whole (which seems to be in the EXTREME minority on this site), I do agree that moving away from the Saga era would be a good idea. There's TONs of material to mine from for inspired stories.

I've got my fingers crossed for Keanu Reeves as Darth Revan

-

I think Revan would make for an excellent movie (not sure if trilogy is the way to go, but who knows). I think there's less chance for them to muddy the story line with extraneous content, since it is hyper-focused on one character.

It would obviously have darker themes than the traditional Star Wars, which I believe is a good thing. Not sure if Disney is willing to go that route though.

While the original game is fantastic, I think everything that came after is kind of a mess as a result of trying to honor player choices as to make the character not really worth trying to adapt unless you've got a really strong plan in mind.

Supposedly a synopsis of the original version of Ep IX by Colin Trevorrow before he was let go for creative differences. It's in progress right now so I don't know how long the stream will end up being.




As always, add salt as needed. This youtuber, unlike most, has worked in Hollywood as a director and editor for decades in case that matters for veracity.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Compel wrote:

Optimism over cynicism any day.

And yet, its blasphemy not to consider ESB the best of the OT...

TESB though... wasn't CYNICAL. Dark yes, cynical no.