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2020/01/22 15:52:42
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: If you took the Star Wars out of TLJ, you’d have a campy movie with a lot of fun stuff and stupid characters. It would sit happily between Fkash Gordon and Chronicles of Riddick.
I've said similar things about it as well. It would have been quite an entertaining sci-fi flick, if it hadn't been trying and failing to be a STAR WARS film.
What you've just said about Rise of Skywalker (I haven't seen it, can't be bothered) is really what the rest of the world has said about The Last Jedi. It was objectively a bad film.
And yet TLJ was critically acclaimed and tallied an 'A' Cinemascore. That's the exact opposite of what you describe. In online self-reinforcing nerd bubbles, sure, it was a creative and conceptual disaster akin to Cats, Gigli, The Postman, or Ishtar. But most of the rest of the world didn't see it that way. I know that makes some uncomfortable, and that's why the "Disney paid off the critics!" conspiracy-mongering started. Soothes the ol' cognitive dissonance. But it's okay to strongly dislike something that lots of other people enjoyed.
Tons of people watched 'Friends' back in the day. I gave it a try but thought it was a painfully pedestrian sitcom and didn't get into it. Doesn't mean that it was 'objectively bad', that everyone who liked it was an idiot, or that there was some conspiracy to hide the truth. It was obviously a *good television show* that just wasn't to my taste. And if someone thought it meant this or that about me, it's not something that would bother me.
Cripes...BBQ. It's like religion in some parts of this country. Complete with holy wars over which regional variant is best. To me, it's good...but just cooked meat. Personally, I'd rather have a steak or -- if the mood struck me for BBQ -- Korean BBQ. Doesn't make everyone else 'objectively wrong' or mean that the Illuminati are pushing slow-cooked proteins on an unwilling public. I'm the one swimming upstream. And it's fine. Really.
Critics loved it because it was different.
Remember, these people get paid to watch movies day in, day out. They watch new movies like you watch new TV episodes... possibly more. They watch SO MANY movies that by the time they establish themselves as serious critics they're BORED with the average movie. Show them something that defies their expectations and they tend to like it simply BECAUSE it defied their expectation.
Even when defying those expectations takes the movie out of the realm of verisimilitude for the established movie world.
As far as the politics of the sequel trilogy... well, I don't think that was as much in the movies, as in the reactions of Lucasfilm employees when TLJ was not universally loved. If I don't like a movie because of plot points X, Y, and Z, and your reaction is 'you must be a racist sexist pig because of A, B, and C'... yeah, that's politics raising it's ugly head.
Eh. What blows a giant hole in that theory is the critics giving Marvel movie after Marvel movie solid marks, even though those are as formula as they come. I know, I know...THEY'RE ALL PAID OFF BY DISNEY!!1! Doesn't work that way, but whatevs.
Critics with some pedigree -- i.e. not some random blogger being paid by the word -- look at films a little more deeply. They look at story, writing, performances, etc. Something different will attract their attention, but if they take their work seriously their review of a film doesn't end there. It wasn't that TLJ was just different -- there are lots of ways of getting to 'different' and plenty are bad. Same goes for 'subverting expectations'. What attracted them to TLJ seemed more specifically about more thematic complexity than other SW films, and even some meta-commentary.
That doesn't mean it's the moviegoing experience everyone wants. That's fine and I guarantee Rian Johnson himself would tell you that. All creative people understand this. But someone not liking a creative work doesn't make said work 'bad' either. Things can be really special AND not at all to someone's taste. Both can be 100% true.
Regarding politics, one side painting with too wide of a brush doesn't mean the bad actors weren't there on the other side. The situation was more complex than either side let on. We really have to get back to being able to handle the barest minimum of complexity in our conversations.
Eh. What blows a giant hole in that theory is the critics giving Marvel movie after Marvel movie solid marks, even though those are as formula as they come.
Critics tend to overvalue novelty, but its not the only factor. It's also worth noting that while Marvel has a formula, its spent a good deal of time avoiding being particularly formulaic. The biggest movies in the franchise took some pretty big risks. It's a franchise of solid, good enough movies with 1 "big idea" every once in a while to keep people on their toes. The most maligned films are easily the most formulaic. Iron Man 2 and Avengers 2 both suffer almost entirely from the inorganic world building detours that have been the major failings of most other cinematic universes. The formula films tend to be workhorse character introductions that are fun, but not particularly riveting. But then they take a chance, go completely crazy and give us Guardians or destroy SHIELD or the Avengers themselves. They let Thanos win or let Thor reboot himself into the kind of film everyone dreamed things like Jupiter Ascending could be. Some of this is just that superheroes are to modern critics what gangster tales were to the generation of critics before; something they loved as a child, brought to life with dedication and care, but as far as being formulaic, the Marvel films that stick with people are generally the ones willing to take big risks time and time again.
2020/01/22 16:54:44
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
gorgon wrote: Regarding politics, one side painting with too wide of a brush doesn't mean the bad actors weren't there on the other side. The situation was more complex than either side let on. We really have to get back to being able to handle the barest minimum of complexity in our conversations.
True, but as I said, if I'm criticizing points X, Y, and Z, but being called a racist sexist pig because of A, B, and C WHICH I NEVER ADDRESSED MUCH LESS CRITICIZED is. at best, a straw-man fallacy.
Were there bad actors among those criticizing TLJ? Yes, yes there were. They were the ones criticizing A, B, and C. What happened to Kelly Trahn on Tiwtter is tragic... but had nothing to do with me. I'm not even ON twitter, and said more than once the actors did the best they could with the sewage sandwich script they were handed.
But when the writing is bad and fails even the most basic tests of verisimilitude and internal logic (why didn't the First Order - who apparently had PLENTY of fuel - just split their fleet, have half trail the Resistance while the other half got in front of them? One Resistance sandwich, coming right up! When Kylo Ren killed Snoke, he became the Supreme Leader of the First Order. Thus, the Red Guard became HIS guards. Why did they then ATTACK HIM?), then criticizing these points is entirely valid and have NOTHING to do with racism or sexism.
Not to mention how insulting your fanbase is a good way to murder a franchise. Yes, they've survived so far, but Solo demonstrates there's a price to be paid for it, and sooner or later that price is too high for a business to pay anymore.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/22 17:03:36
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2020/01/22 17:15:43
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Vulcan wrote: When Kylo Ren killed Snoke, he became the Supreme Leader of the First Order. Thus, the Red Guard became HIS guards. Why did they then ATTACK HIM?)
He murders the leader of the First Order and then kills any witnesses before pinning it on Rey. Hux even briefly presumes the title before Kylo makes it very clear that will not be the case.
2020/01/22 17:54:15
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
[DCM]
Chief Deputy Sub Assistant Trainee Squig Handling Intern
Also, loyalty.
They’re not Orkses. So far as we know.
There are very few declared bodyguards I can think of that would just stand by and give polite applause about that sort of thing?
Automatically Appended Next Post: On the other hand, I do feel for Vulcan and his ilk.
It’s absolutely fine by me not to like any given film. But sadly, TLJ was the subject of a sustained campaign by interwebular tosspots to rubbish it because of frankly dubious reasons.
Same with Ghostbusters, the one in 2016. I enjoyed it, as did others. Others did not. All fine and dandy and that. But there’s those that put it down to ‘muuhhhhhhhhhhhhh...... wimmins. And they’re well documented campaign has tainted negative criticism, however constructive.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/22 18:02:49
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Right, that's my point. Kylo betrays the First Order and kills its leader. There's nothing at that point that makes him the new Supreme Leader and the guards simply act to kill the traitor. When they fail, Kylo gives Hux a weak excuse and takes the title, because... honestly, who is going to challenge him at that point?
2020/01/23 03:01:06
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Vulcan wrote: When Kylo Ren killed Snoke, he became the Supreme Leader of the First Order. Thus, the Red Guard became HIS guards. Why did they then ATTACK HIM?)
He murders the leader of the First Order and then kills any witnesses before pinning it on Rey. Hux even briefly presumes the title before Kylo makes it very clear that will not be the case.
Except that's not what happened. There was a moment's surprise, and then the guards moved to attack Rey and Ren. They SHOULD HAVE done something along the lines of bowing or kneeling to their new master. If they had, THEN your theory would make sense. Instead, they quickly moved to attack Ray and Ren, and they were forced to defend themselves.
Sure, Ren probably spun the story that way afterwards, but I doubt anyone believed it. If Rey was strong enough to fight the entire guard AND Kylo Ren, then she was unlikely to have spared him after killing everyone else.
Right, that's my point. Kylo betrays the First Order and kills its leader. There's nothing at that point that makes him the new Supreme Leader and the guards simply act to kill the traitor. When they fail, Kylo gives Hux a weak excuse and takes the title, because... honestly, who is going to challenge him at that point?
I'm sorry, isn't the WHOLE POINT of the Rule of Two "Kill your master, take his place, take on a new apprentice"? That's Rule One of the Dark Side the past couple thousand years!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/23 19:01:18
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2020/01/23 19:07:46
Subject: Re:Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Yes. But the guards probably don't know that. They're not Sith, just bodyguards.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Sure, Ren probably spun the story that way afterwards, but I doubt anyone believed it. If Rey was strong enough to fight the entire guard AND Kylo Ren, then she was unlikely to have spared him after killing everyone else.
Hux clearly DOESN'T believe it. He's also immediately aware he's completely powerless to do anything about it.
2020/01/23 20:20:06
Subject: Re:Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Grey Templar wrote: Yes. But the guards probably don't know that. They're not Sith, just bodyguards.
They're pretty BAD bodyguards, given that Snoke gets killed before they can react...
At which point, if they're not going to serve Kylo Ren and their old paymaster is dead, why risk getting killed themselves by attacking Ren and Rey?
Well, I would argue 1) all Star Wars villains are bad villains because they constantly order their bodyguards to stand down/leave the room when dealing with the hero. So thats really on Snoke/the Emperor, not the bodyguards.
2) They're probably brainwashed to follow Snoke to the death.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/23 20:26:02
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Grey Templar wrote: Yes. But the guards probably don't know that. They're not Sith, just bodyguards.
They're pretty BAD bodyguards, given that Snoke gets killed before they can react...
At which point, if they're not going to serve Kylo Ren and their old paymaster is dead, why risk getting killed themselves by attacking Ren and Rey?
Well, I would argue 1) all Star Wars villains are bad villains because they constantly order their bodyguards to stand down/leave the room when dealing with the hero. So thats really on Snoke/the Emperor, not the bodyguards.
2) They're probably brainwashed to follow Snoke to the death.
So not professionals, but brainwashed fanatics then. Well, that explains why they failed then.
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2020/01/23 20:52:02
Subject: Re:Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Believe me, nobody in Star Wars is competent at anything they do.
The Empire is laughably terrible at being a domineering empire in terms of tactics and equipment and numbers. The only reason they are successful is because the entire galaxy is full of complete wussies who don't dare resist, despite the fact that weapons of all kinds are easily acquired and indeed are owned in large numbers by the civilian population. And the only reason the Rebellion struggles to overthrow the Empire is because they too are horrible at their job+hindered by the general population's inability to conduct violence.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
Vulcan wrote: They're pretty BAD bodyguards, given that Snoke gets killed before they can react...
Not that they could either. It was pretty subtle up to the point it was revealed. Their attention was probably focused on Rey and Ren just like Snoke himself.
At which point, if they're not going to serve Kylo Ren and their old paymaster is dead, why risk getting killed themselves by attacking Ren and Rey?
It's called loyalty. It's basically the number 1 prerequisite for bodyguards. They probably assumed, not entirely without cause, that Ren was in league with Rey to kill Snoke and help the Resistance.
2020/01/24 01:52:04
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
This is a strange thing to debate. The bodyguards reacted the minute Snoke was killed, which happened quickly. Moreover, Kylo Ren’s loyalty was never in question as far as Snoke was concerned till that point. Why would the bodyguards be worried about him? And the assassination was pretty subtle.
This is a really specific thing to break down. Leaving aside that all the Star Wars movies have some really wonky moments, I’d say that any movie analyzed at this level would probably not hold up.
2020/01/24 02:20:57
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
I detest The Last Jedi but aside from the choreography goofs that I did not notice at all in that scene when I saw it in the cinema, I really have no issue at all with how that scene played out.
I may have issue with it happening *at all* in the scheme of things, but that's more general complaints about the movie than what happened in that specific scene.
2020/01/25 03:04:29
Subject: Re:Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Vulcan wrote: They're pretty BAD bodyguards, given that Snoke gets killed before they can react...
Not that they could either. It was pretty subtle up to the point it was revealed. Their attention was probably focused on Rey and Ren just like Snoke himself.
At which point, if they're not going to serve Kylo Ren and their old paymaster is dead, why risk getting killed themselves by attacking Ren and Rey?
It's called loyalty. It's basically the number 1 prerequisite for bodyguards. They probably assumed, not entirely without cause, that Ren was in league with Rey to kill Snoke and help the Resistance.
Ah... in the real world, if you get killed, your bodyguard won't go on a suicidal rampage trying to kill your killer. This goes double if it was done in a manner they have no way of defending against. If they're law enforcement, they'll try to arrest you, but other than that once the principle gets killed the job has just ended and you're not getting paid to die for a dead man.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/25 03:20:54
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2020/01/25 03:24:20
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Which is weird when you think about it, because the Star Wars property is so typically strong on its verisimilitude.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Which is weird when you think about it, because the Star Wars property is so typically strong on its verisimilitude.
Sarcasm?
Me, for the entire fight, I was wondering who hired the Power Rangers, what their motivation was, and why the choreography was so terrible and telegraphed, even by Power Rangers standards.
Efficiency is the highest virtue.
2020/01/25 05:43:14
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Azreal13 wrote: Which is weird when you think about it, because the Star Wars property is so typically strong on its verisimilitude.
Sarcasm?
.
Spoiler:
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
It’s absolutely fine by me not to like any given film.
.
stop getting the Internet wrong...
still not entirely sure the wammin hater troll mans, and their SJW counterparts actually exist, but a lot of content creators rely on them for clicks and coin so no need for any actual proof
"AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME...SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED."
2020/01/27 02:02:52
Subject: Re:Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
SamusDrake wrote: Well, for those wanting to bring back Ben, your wish is their command...
Lol.
Intern:. "Who really cares?"
Kylo(heavy breathing):."I DO!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/27 02:03:38
"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."
2020/01/27 02:48:43
Subject: Re:Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Vulcan wrote: They're pretty BAD bodyguards, given that Snoke gets killed before they can react...
Not that they could either. It was pretty subtle up to the point it was revealed. Their attention was probably focused on Rey and Ren just like Snoke himself.
At which point, if they're not going to serve Kylo Ren and their old paymaster is dead, why risk getting killed themselves by attacking Ren and Rey?
It's called loyalty. It's basically the number 1 prerequisite for bodyguards. They probably assumed, not entirely without cause, that Ren was in league with Rey to kill Snoke and help the Resistance.
Ah... in the real world, if you get killed, your bodyguard won't go on a suicidal rampage trying to kill your killer. This goes double if it was done in a manner they have no way of defending against. If they're law enforcement, they'll try to arrest you, but other than that once the principle gets killed the job has just ended and you're not getting paid to die for a dead man.
they're proably not guarding snoke for the money. these aren't contract bodyguards for a celberty singer. they're hand chosen body guards for the supreme leader of the First Order. Chosen specificly for their fanatical loyalty to him.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2020/01/27 14:17:44
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
It’s absolutely fine by me not to like any given film.
.
stop getting the Internet wrong...
still not entirely sure the wammin hater troll mans, and their SJW counterparts actually exist, but a lot of content creators rely on them for clicks and coin so no need for any actual proof
Oh they definitely exist. You just don't see them that much because they're often at home.... clicking click bait and answer the call to make sure that people aren't saying the wrong things on the interwebs.
2020/01/27 15:10:08
Subject: Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
Regarding SW villains asking their bodyguards to either stand down to leave the room when facing the "hero" in the movie: It's more than just arrogance on their part (though that certainly play a part), but also an acknowledgement by said villain that his bodyguards are likely no match for the hero and will thus get in the way.
Of all the decisions I disliked in TLJ, the gaurds attacking Ren/Rey was never one of them. That makes perfect sense and Snoke/Ren were NOT Sith and didn't have some Dark side Rule of 2 thing going on. Guards saw their master killed by a traitor and acted accordingly, it's that simple. Plus it gave us one of the highlight saber fights in the whole trilogy. THEN Ren spun the "the girl killed Snoke" biz to deceive Hux and take the Supreme leader title by intimidation
-
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/27 15:11:37
they're proably not guarding snoke for the money. these aren't contract bodyguards for a celberty singer. they're hand chosen body guards for the supreme leader of the First Order. Chosen specificly for their fanatical loyalty to him.
To Snoke, and not to the First Order, and the rest of the leadership let him do it knowing they could be used against them at Snoke's whim.
Well, that makes sense. It's no dumber than allowing a General to exercise detailed command over naval elements, or allowing Hux to be in charge of anything of importance.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Galef wrote: Plus it gave us one of the highlight saber fights in the whole trilogy.
Ah... sure. Whatever you say. I'm sure my opinion of it was expressed somewhere up-thread, probably repeatedly. No need for me to repeat it again.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/01/28 02:55:37
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2020/01/28 03:14:16
Subject: Re:Star Wars Rise of Skywalker - WARNING, SPOILERS.
they're proably not guarding snoke for the money. these aren't contract bodyguards for a celberty singer. they're hand chosen body guards for the supreme leader of the First Order. Chosen specificly for their fanatical loyalty to him.
To Snoke, and not to the First Order, and the rest of the leadership let him do it knowing they could be used against them at Snoke's whim.
Well, that makes sense. It's no dumber than allowing a General to exercise detailed command over naval elements, or allowing Hux to be in charge of anything of importance.
you're looking at the first order as a group that's intreasted in checks and balances....
thats now how the first order works
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
