Vulcan wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

Right, that's my point. Kylo betrays the First Order and kills its leader. There's nothing at that point that makes him the new Supreme Leader and the guards simply act to kill the traitor. When they fail, Kylo gives Hux a weak excuse and takes the title, because... honestly, who is going to challenge him at that point?

I'm sorry, isn't the WHOLE POINT of the Rule of Two "Kill your master, take his place, take on a new apprentice"? That's Rule One of the Dark Side the past couple thousand years!

BrianDavion wrote:

 Vulcan wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

they're proably not guarding snoke for the money. these aren't contract bodyguards for a celberty singer. they're hand chosen body guards for the supreme leader of the First Order. Chosen specificly for their fanatical loyalty to him.

To Snoke, and not to the First Order, and the rest of the leadership let him do it knowing they could be used against them at Snoke's whim.

Well, that makes sense. It's no dumber than allowing a General to exercise detailed command over naval elements, or allowing Hux to be in charge of anything of importance.

you're looking at the first order as a group that's intreasted in checks and balances....
thats now how the first order works

 Lance845 wrote:
The rule of 2 has had masters with multiple apprentices before. The master just pits the apprentices against each other to prove which is strongest and which is dead. Palpatine had both duku and maul remember?

 insaniak wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The rule of 2 has had masters with multiple apprentices before. The master just pits the apprentices against each other to prove which is strongest and which is dead. Palpatine had both duku and maul remember?

Dooku was recruited after Maul was lost. But yes, the rule of 2 has always been more of a ... guideline... than a rule.

 Lance845 wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:
The rule of 2 has had masters with multiple apprentices before. The master just pits the apprentices against each other to prove which is strongest and which is dead. Palpatine had both duku and maul remember?

Dooku was recruited after Maul was lost. But yes, the rule of 2 has always been more of a ... guideline... than a rule.

No he wasn't Dooku was the guy who helped set up the clone facilities AND the droid army AND the whole separatist cause. Dooku had been working for Palpatine for years by the time Episode 1 rolled around.

In May 2011, Lucas was in Orlando, Florida, to celebrate the opening of Star Tours – The Adventures Continue at Walt Disney World. He was invited to breakfast by Disney CEO Bob Iger, who asked Lucas if he would be willing to sell his company to Disney. Lucas had begun to consider retiring, but was not ready to do so at that time.[38] Lucas considered directing Episode VII for a May 2015 release[39] and then selling his company,[40] but decided to leave the franchise in the hands of other filmmakers, announcing in January 2012 that he would step away from making blockbuster films.[41]

In early 2012, after being disappointed by the weak performance of Red Tails, Lucas announced to The New York Times that he was planning to retire.[42] While he was in New York, he asked Kathleen Kennedy to lunch, knowing that she was in town working on Steven Spielberg's Lincoln. He asked Kennedy if she would be a co-chair at Lucasfilm with him, with the intention of transferring leadership entirely to her after about a year. She began working for him on June 1, 2012; Lucas soon proposed that they work together on the sequel trilogy.[43] They brought in Michael Arndt to write a draft of Episode VII based on Lucas's synopsis. Star Wars screenwriting veteran Lawrence Kasdan was hired to support Arndt.[b] After making an appearance at Star Wars Celebration VI in late August, Lucas took Mark Hamill and Carrie Fisher to lunch and asked if they would be willing to reprise their roles for the new films.[44][45] They agreed, as did Harrison Ford after being promised that Han Solo would be given meaningful closure.[44]

Details of his sequel trilogy treatments included the conclusion of the Skywalker family's story, with its third generation being portrayed in their twenties.[46][47] Lucas hoped to explain concepts he had imagined when he originally drafted his saga in the 1970s. Most specifically he revealed the "symbiotic relationships" between the Jedi, the Force, midi-chlorians (microscopic lifeforms, first mentioned onscreen in 1999's The Phantom Menace), and the Whills (all-powerful creatures first mentioned in the title of the original outline of Star Wars, Journal of the Whills):[48]

[The next three Star Wars films] were going to get into a microbiotic world. But there's this world of creatures that operate differently than we do. I call them the Whills. And the Whills are the ones who actually control the universe. They feed off the Force. Back in the day, I used to say ultimately what this means is we were just cars, vehicles, for the Whills to travel around in. We're vessels for them. And the conduit is the midi-chlorians. The midi-chlorians are the ones that communicate with the Whills. The Whills, in a general sense, they are the Force. ... But it's about symbiotic relationships. I think, personally, one of the core values we should have in the world, and kids should be taught, is ecology, to understand that we all are connected. (Lucas, 2018)[49]

By June 2012, Lucas had agreed to sell his company, provided that Kennedy would replace him as president of Lucasfilm. Iger agreed, while insisting that Disney would have final say over future movies.[50] Lucas's final stipulations before the sale in late 2012 were that his story treatments would be used and that the number of Disney employees who could read them would be limited.[51] Lucas gave Kennedy the final draft of his story treatments during the October 2012 sale.[52] The same month, the Disney sale and production of the sequel trilogy were announced to the public.[53] Lucas stated, "I always said I wasn't going to do any more, and that's true, because I'm not going to do any more. But that doesn't mean I'm unwilling to turn it over to Kathy to do more."[54] Both plot outlines, the one written in the 1980s and the one written in the 2010s, were given to Iger around the time that Disney acquired Lucasfilm.[55]

In January 2013, George Lucas held the first story briefing about the as-yet untitled Episode VII at Skywalker Ranch. Related concept art stemming from these session includes the following story elements:[56]

A teenager female young Jedi Padawan named Kira, described as a "loner, hothead, gear-headed, badass." (The female Padawan was retained, albeit renamed Rey. The phonetically similar name Qi'ra would be used for the girlfriend of a young Han Solo in the anthology film Solo: A Star Wars Story.)
The teen character friend was a teenager named Sam who carried a blaster. He was renamed into the stormtrooper character, Finn. (Both are young adults instead of teens, in the film).[57]
Regarding the character of Luke Skywalker:
An older Luke Skywalker who, decades after the fall of the Empire, exiled himself to the remote planet where the first Jedi temple was located. The first Jedi temple concept art was bell-shaped, and designed by VFX art director James Clyne. (The idea and designs would later be reworked as the planet Ahch-To, briefly seen at the end of Episode VII: The Force Awakens, and explored in Episode VIII: The Last Jedi.)
Luke would have started off reluctant to train the female Padawan, but eventually have a change of heart and agree to train her. (This idea was fully incorporated in The Last Jedi.)
Lucas seemingly had planned for Luke dying at the end of Episode VII. (This element was instead incorporated into Episode VIII.[58] Conversely, some months later, Mark Hamill contradicted the statement and said that George Lucas' original vision for the ending of Episode IX was to have Luke dying there instead of a simple cameo, leaving his sister Leia as a Jedi).[59]
Luke was going to be a "Colonel Kurtz type, hiding from the world in a cave". Luke was going to be in a self-imposed exile, haunted by the betrayal of one of his students, and spiritually in a dark place". (Which is how Luke was presented in The Last Jedi, this preceded the involvement of both, J.J. Abrams and Rian Johnson).[57]
Luke was going to appear with dialogue in the first film. (Pushing Luke to a speechless cameo at the end of the first film, was writer Michael Arndt's idea; he entered after Lucas had left).[60]
The main antagonist would be a man named Skylar that would be corrupted by a character named Talon, until both became the same character Skylar. In some drafts, this character was not anyone's son, and in others it was not decided whose son he was. Skylar ultimately became Ben Solo, the fallen son; this was George Lucas's idea (not J.J. Abrams), and his backstory was to be explored beginning in Episode VII.[60]
At some point after that conference, Lucas decided not to do the film himself. In 2015, Lucas revealed (to his disappointment) that his outlines had been discarded in order to "make something for the fans".[61][62] The same year, Episode VII writer and director J. J. Abrams revealed that Disney had given him a mandate to discard Lucas's story and "start from scratch".[63] Disney was faced with the challenge of pleasing devoted Star Wars fans more so than with the company's other franchises.[64]

The first film in the sequel trilogy was titled Episode VII: The Force Awakens and was written by Lucasfilm veteran Lawrence Kasdan, along with its director J. J. Abrams, and Michael Arndt. Bob Iger's memoirs, published in 2019, recount that Lucas was upset after hearing the plot of The Force Awakens in meetings, specifically about elements that were derivative of the original 1977 film.[c] Lucas felt betrayed by Iger and Abrams because they discarded some of his sequel trilogy ideas.[67] In 2018, Lucas revealed a few elements of his discarded pre-Disney script about midichlorians, a microbiotic world, and the Whills.[68]

As announced by Lucasfilm, the sequel trilogy meant the end of most of the existing Expanded Universe, so as to give "maximum creative freedom to the filmmakers and also preserve an element of surprise and discovery for the audience". Only Episodes I–VI would remain canon to the franchise, along with The Clone Wars animated film and series. Most everything produced after the announcement would also be considered canon.[69]

BrianDavion wrote:
So basicly the george lucas plan was even worse

Did you know? The Sith Eternal fleet seen in #StarWars: #TheRiseofSkywalker was created by Sith cultists on Exegol, who indoctrinated Exegol’s population with Sith values and raised and trained their children to become officers, mechanics and soldiers for the Final Order

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Still curious to know how one single planet, over 30 or so years, can create more Star Destroyers, with even more superior weaponry, than the entire Empire could.

 Geifer wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Still curious to know how one single planet, over 30 or so years, can create more Star Destroyers, with even more superior weaponry, than the entire Empire could.

Sith values?

Voss wrote:

 Geifer wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Still curious to know how one single planet, over 30 or so years, can create more Star Destroyers, with even more superior weaponry, than the entire Empire could.

Sith values?

yep. They had exactly two enginneers, a master and an apprentice, and the apprentice has to kill the master to advance. Sith values.

 Galef wrote:
I got the impression because the Officer that killed Hux (I forget his name) mentioned that he served Palps for years that the "Sith" fleet was being constructed DURING the reign of the Empire. Palps always has plans on the back burner and I think his end goal was to create terror with a single Death Star, then back that up with a whole fleet of Star Destroyers with DS tech.
I imagine the reason the Empire didn't have them ready during the orig trig was because some rebel farmboy destroyed the first DS and they had to divert resources from building the Sith fleet to get a new one ready.
Which kinda plugs the plot hole on who they were able to build the 2nd DS so fast when it took almost 20 years to build the first one.

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Plus... Those ships would render the death star completely redundant anyway.

 Galef wrote:

 Captain Joystick wrote:
Plus... Those ships would render the death star completely redundant anyway.

Exactly. Palpatine creates a DS to be a terror symbol for the empire, then backs it up with super laser Star Destoyers that make the inevitable destruction of said DS irrelevant

Palpatine wins, that's always the plan

-

 Grimskul wrote:
The First Order should have been an underground terrorist movement that would have provided a contrast to the Rebels own cells during the time of the Empire, basically doing a role-reversal, with the First Order finding sympathizers (super easy given the Empire's infrastructure didn't collapse overnight), and taking advantage of the New Republic's unwillingness to wield military might like the Empire to spread their influence. It becomes a lot less simple and gives some grey area as well as to how you deal with insurgencies like this without becoming as tyrannical as the Empire was.

 Grimskul wrote:

The First Order should have been an underground terrorist movement that would have provided a contrast to the Rebels own cells during the time of the Empire, basically doing a role-reversal, with the First Order finding sympathizers (super easy given the Empire's infrastructure didn't collapse overnight), and taking advantage of the New Republic's unwillingness to wield military might like the Empire to spread their influence. It becomes a lot less simple and gives some grey area as well as to how you deal with insurgencies like this without becoming as tyrannical as the Empire was.

 Grimskul wrote:
Yeah, if there's anything that really peeves me about the new trilogy (amongst an entire mountain of things), reducing it back to the super-weapon/deathstar threat TWICE just smacked of laziness and boredom to me. The worst part is that it was just the scale too. Starkiller station, bigger and spooookier Death Star! The exegol fleet? Deathstar x 1000.

The First Order should have been an underground terrorist movement that would have provided a contrast to the Rebels own cells during the time of the Empire, basically doing a role-reversal, with the First Order finding sympathizers (super easy given the Empire's infrastructure didn't collapse overnight), and taking advantage of the New Republic's unwillingness to wield military might like the Empire to spread their influence. It becomes a lot less simple and gives some grey area as well as to how you deal with insurgencies like this without becoming as tyrannical as the Empire was.

BrianDavion wrote:
So basicly the george lucas plan was even worse

 Easy E wrote:
I liked bitter old Luke. Very reflective of real life. You do something to change the world, and realize it didn't change squat.