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So there is apparently a rumor that cult marines will go up to 2 wounds (rubrics , noise marines etc). If that would be true do you guys think it will be enough to straight up fix them?

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359378-chaos-rumors-in-psychic-awakening-2/?p=5421382

From a WE aspect, if say not entirely. If they give us a better way to get into combat instead of rhinos or other transport. Also a deny overwatch would be stellar. But, 2W is a nice start.

Also, if I remember correctly. Rubrics were 2w back in 4th/5th.

Biasn wrote:
So there is apparently a rumor that cult marines will go up to 2 wounds (rubrics , noise marines etc). If that would be true do you guys think it will be enough to straight up fix them?

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359378-chaos-rumors-in-psychic-awakening-2/?p=5421382

Uh....yeah, as a Tsons player my army would MOST DEFINITELY be very strong if rubrics had 2w (and presumably scarabs had 3? Because otherwise scarabs are gonna be pretty laughable.)

No, 2 wounds would not fix them as their points would probably go up, also D2 weapons super popular weapons in many armies anymore.

Well i assume the points would stay the same otherwise it's just a wash or maybe even making them worse.

Rubrics and PM probably proft the most out of that.

Noise marines have other issues, like basically not wanting to use noise weapons.

And khorne berzerkers get a tad tougher, which is nice but frankly they either die in the enemy shooting phase or kill everything they touch so nope, they are not fixed.

Further, If Chosen would get that aswell that would probably fix them. (maybee even bump possesed to 3 but that would probably be slightly excessive.)

It would probably make them about as pts efficient as Primaris. Zerkers would benefit the most IMO, Noise Marines the least, Rubrics and Plague Marines would both become a lot better but not as much better as Zerkers. But if Chaos got better Chapter Tactics or non-Soup benefits in addition to 2 wounds they'd be even more OP than SM IMO.

Don't get your hopes up I really doubt they'd double the wounds characteristic of a non-Primaris unit.

A man can hope right? Would be a right step to kinda make them more in line with new SM stuff.

2W plague marines would be awesome. No more fielding cultists or pox walkers unless I want to.

2W Rubrics would be pretty tough when taking into account "All is Dust".

More wounds is always good IF it doesn't come with a big price hike. It would definitely make sense for chosen.

But nah. Gw ain't giving that to anything but primaris. Just hope for good a good "vigilus " style treatment in pa2 as that's probably all we're getting.

 Jidmah wrote:
2W plague marines would be awesome. No more fielding cultists or pox walkers unless I want to.

Absolutely, my mind is lurching into plaguemarine spam with blight haulers. Out of all the cult marines PM's would be the big winners due to disgustingly resilient.

If this also passed on to the terminator equivalents then blightlords become really good.

None of this will help much in the loyalist matchup.

 Nithaniel wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
2W plague marines would be awesome. No more fielding cultists or pox walkers unless I want to.

Absolutely, my mind is lurching into plaguemarine spam with blight haulers. Out of all the cult marines PM's would be the big winners due to disgustingly resilient.

If this also passed on to the terminator equivalents then blightlords become really good.

None of this will help much in the loyalist matchup.

Alpha legion Plague marines?
Hell, that would be disgusting to move.

 Nithaniel wrote:
Absolutely, my mind is lurching into plaguemarine spam with blight haulers. Out of all the cult marines PM's would be the big winners due to disgustingly resilient.

If this also passed on to the terminator equivalents then blightlords become really good.

T5 also is a bit of protection against most D2 weapons, as those tend to be S8 or S9 and won't be wounding on 2s that way.

Not Online!!! wrote:Alpha legion Plague marines?
Hell, that would be disgusting to move.

Eh, plague marines barely do anything when they don't get to use Arch Contaminator and Inexorable Advance, plus they still aren't awesome in combat, anything with decent AP and at least S5 will crush them.

Aren't cult marines a little too cheap to have 2 wounds each?

Karol wrote:
Aren't cult marines a little too cheap to have 2 wounds each?

Maybe by a point or two. Primaris marines tend to be ~18 points, while cult marines are 16.

 Jidmah wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:Alpha legion Plague marines?
Hell, that would be disgusting to move.

Eh, plague marines barely do anything when they don't get to use Arch Contaminator and Inexorable Advance, plus they still aren't awesome in combat, anything with decent AP and at least S5 will crush them.

With hateful assault the flail on PM's is still ok if you can get re-rolls and arch contaminator can make them solid.

If they do this I really hope that the Chosen will get it as well.

 Jidmah wrote:

Karol wrote:
Aren't cult marines a little too cheap to have 2 wounds each?

Maybe by a point or two. Primaris marines tend to be ~18 points, while cult marines are 16.

Are they? With all the SM Doctrines and stratagems in mind? Since apparently the rumor also says there won't be changes to CSM CT's.

Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.

Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.

 Jidmah wrote:

Karol wrote:
Aren't cult marines a little too cheap to have 2 wounds each?

Maybe by a point or two. Primaris marines tend to be ~18 points, while cult marines are 16.

Several of the cults also have not insignificant additional costs due to wargear pricing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.

Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.

Rubrics dont get normal site, and their special ammo isnt free.

a 5 man intercessor is 85 points 2w each (30" 4 -1 1 bolters and free stalker bolt rifle (4 -2 2) if you want it and granade lunchers for 1 point) and they have 2 attacks each in melee (3 if veteran)
a 5 man of Rubric marines if 96 points 1w each (4 24" -2 1 bolters + 1mw smite that might blow the squod up on perils) 1 attack each + all is dust which while good it's definitely not worth 5w more on the squod
nop definitely cult marines are not nearly undercosted compared to primaris

Karol wrote:
Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.

Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.

And termies/tacs are reaaaaaally bad. So why not make atleast the cults playable?

deTox91 wrote:
a 5 man intercessor is 85 points 2w each (30" 4 -1 1 bolters and free stalker bolt rifle (4 -2 2) if you want it and granade lunchers for 1 point) and they have 2 attacks each in melee (3 if veteran)
a 5 man of Rubric marines if 96 points 1w each without upgrades (4 24" -2 1 bolters + 1mw smite that might blow the squod up on perils) 1 attack each
nop definitely cult marines are not nearly undercosted compared to primaris

You did leave off the all is dust rule, +1 to all saves vs D1 weapons is very nice.
They also get the soul reaper cannon with some nice AP and they ignore the penalty for moving and firing it.

Karol wrote:
Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.

Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.

A Space Marine Terminator is 34 points with a Storm Bolter and Powerfist.

Now for some math. HtK stands for "Hits to Kill," T is Terminator, PM is Plague Marine.

Weapon..................HtK (T)..........HtK (PM)
Lasgun.....................36...................13.5
Bolter........................24...................13.5
H. Bolter....................9......................6
Assault Cannon........9......................4.5
Autocannon..............4.5...................3.375
Krak Missile.............2.62..................~2.5
Melta.......................1.96..................~1.65

So, a little math later, one can see there's basically no weapon that a 1-wound Plague Marine is more durable to than a Terminator. So you really want to cost Plague Marines as just shy of the price of a Terminator that has more attacks at a better profile in close combat, twice as much shooting, AND more durable?

Edit: That ~ indicates some rough math. I used 11/10 as a multiplier for the FNP on a d6 damage weapon-probably overestimating the durability increase, but even with that, it's still not as durable.

Karol wrote:
Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.

Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.

not every army needs to be at the same level as grek knights, karol. The cult marines as they are right now are already underperforming compared to other options.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

They also get the soul reaper cannon with some nice AP and they ignore the penalty for moving and firing it.

Which bumps the squad cost up to 104 points.

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

deTox91 wrote:
a 5 man intercessor is 85 points 2w each (30" 4 -1 1 bolters and free stalker bolt rifle (4 -2 2) if you want it and granade lunchers for 1 point) and they have 2 attacks each in melee (3 if veteran)
a 5 man of Rubric marines if 96 points 1w each without upgrades (4 24" -2 1 bolters + 1mw smite that might blow the squod up on perils) 1 attack each
nop definitely cult marines are not nearly undercosted compared to primaris

You did leave off the all is dust rule, +1 to all saves vs D1 weapons is very nice.
They also get the soul reaper cannon with some nice AP and they ignore the penalty for moving and firing it.

you got me before the edit, added the all is dust in, while for the soul reaper cannon I wouldn't count it as a "plus", it can be taken only in 10 man squods which are not a smart move as you might lose almost 20~ points models to moral (no "and they shell know no fear" for rerolls as SM do) and it costs 10 points just the reaper cannon (heavy 4 5 -3 1) making the 10 man squod cost 194 points compared to 170 of intercessors


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sterling191 wrote:

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

They also get the soul reaper cannon with some nice AP and they ignore the penalty for moving and firing it.

Which bumps the squad cost up to 104 points.

also you can't take it in 5 man squads only on 10 (moral issues)

TheAvengingKnee wrote:

deTox91 wrote:
a 5 man intercessor is 85 points 2w each (30" 4 -1 1 bolters and free stalker bolt rifle (4 -2 2) if you want it and granade lunchers for 1 point) and they have 2 attacks each in melee (3 if veteran)
a 5 man of Rubric marines if 96 points 1w each without upgrades (4 24" -2 1 bolters + 1mw smite that might blow the squod up on perils) 1 attack each
nop definitely cult marines are not nearly undercosted compared to primaris

You did leave off the all is dust rule, +1 to all saves vs D1 weapons is very nice.
They also get the soul reaper cannon with some nice AP and they ignore the penalty for moving and firing it.

pumping them to 2W would make them be prime targets got D2 weapons. people would shoot bolters at other stuff.
They only get access to the soulreaper cannon in a squad of 10 since the codex dropped, meaning you can't fill detachment slots easily because youre not playing with MSUs.

deTox91 wrote:

also you can't take it in 5 man squads only on 10 (moral issues)

Always forget about that, which should communicate how often those are (not) taken.