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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 14:07:14
Subject: Re:2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws
Sioux Falls, SD
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Sterling191 wrote:deTox91 wrote:
also you can't take it in 5 man squads only on 10 (moral issues)
Always forget about that, which should communicate how often those are (not) taken.
I always forget about it(as do a lot of the people I play with) because we either kill so few models in a turn that they don’t take one, or wipe out the unit, or the nids are synapse and just laugh when they lose 10 gaunts.
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Blood for the bloo... wait no, I meant for Sanguinius! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 14:12:05
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base (and give Primaris something else like S5/T5).
But since that isn't going to happen this edition (or the next probably), bumping Cult Marines (including Chosen) would be a good start. Even with just a 1-2ppm increase it would still be welcome and give Chaos Marines of all colors a true Primaris equivalent.
Although I'm actually surprised Chaos Primaris haven't become a thing yet. Nothing in their fluff suggests that they are immune to corruption and regular Marine Chapters turn Renegade from time to time.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 14:32:57
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba
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Galef wrote:I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base (and give Primaris something else like S5/T5).
But since that isn't going to happen this edition (or the next probably), bumping Cult Marines (including Chosen) would be a good start. Even with just a 1-2ppm increase it would still be welcome and give Chaos Marines of all colors a true Primaris equivalent.
Although I'm actually surprised Chaos Primaris haven't become a thing yet. Nothing in their fluff suggests that they are immune to corruption and regular Marine Chapters turn Renegade from time to time.
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I think it's most likely because GW basically sells two different types of product, one driven by nostalgia to existing customers, and one pointed outwards, aiming to attract new customers.
The difference between the recent CSM release and the Primaris release is a great example of those two strategies side by side in action. Nostalgia products are very carefully aimed to not piss off existing whale consumers, the consumer is intended to buy 1-2 kits of each new thing so repeated poseability is not a concern, but keeping things compatible and not tweak on the forumla too hard is tantamount. Innovation should be just enough to get a purchase, but not enough to alienate that existing consumer with an idea in his head of what the product is.
Primaris Marines change foundational aspects of what a Space Marine is and (most importantly, honestly) how they look. All their design changes are intended to make them look more familiar and appealing to a non- 40k player, and they are designed with the assumption that a person buying in does not have an existing collection, so all the major releases are self-contained and designed to work with each other instead of other existing models like the Master of Possession, Greater Possessed or Discolord were. You get the Shadowspear box set? Your special librarian works with the existing models in shadowspear. Their rules are also designed to ideally have no "wrong" way to put your kit together - there should be nothing in the box that is a potential "trap" for new players, no incongruous weapon options you can glue together accidentally, no super expensive pointless sergeant upgrades that are a waste of points...at least, not in the basic box. There's a reason all the powerfists, power weapons, plasma pistols, etc that are basically nostalgia options for existing players are on separated upgrade sprues.
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"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"
"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"
"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"
"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 14:33:07
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Ork Admiral Kroozin Da Kosmos on Da Hulk
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Karol wrote:Then they are already undercosted, a t5 model with two saves should cost at least 30pts, without weapons. It would be comperable in resiliance to a termintor.
Same with 1ksons, tougher then a regular marine, with normal smite, and special ammo for free, should be at least 21 pts. Probably more.
Only if they are painted silver
You might want to have a look at IH interceptors for what you get for 30 points, and those don't exactly see a lot of play.
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7 Ork facts people always get wrong:
Ragnar did not win against Thrakka, but suffered two crushing defeats within a few days of each other.
A lasgun is powerful enough to sever an ork's appendage or head in a single, well aimed shot.
Orks meks have a better understanding of electrics and mechanics than most Tech Priests.
Orks actually do not think that purple makes them harder to see. The joke was made canon by Alex Stewart's Caphias Cain books.
Gharkull Blackfang did not even come close to killing the emperor.
Orks can be corrupted by chaos, but few of them have any interest in what chaos offers.
Orks do not have the power of believe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 14:40:06
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Hallowed Canoness
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I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 14:41:54
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Crimson wrote:If they do this I really hope that the Chosen will get it as well.
I'd say unlikely. Chosen are already cheaper and more flexible in some regards. It certainly could put them out in the cold though.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2019/11/07 14:48:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 15:07:02
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Hungry Ork Hunta Lying in Wait
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Galef wrote:I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base (and give Primaris something else like S5/T5).-
That gives some serious issues I find compared to a lot of other choices, I'm very glad Primaris aren't S5/T5! My Tyranid warriors already suck in comparison to Primaris marines, alongside so many other supposedly 'tough' infantry units point for point. (Necrons, Tyranids and so on).
Chosen/cult marines would be amazing with 2w a piece, hell if any marine deserves it, Plague and Ruberic marines especially since Plague marines are mostly expendable regenerating mass and Ruberics literally have no weakpoint that isn't being ripped apart.
Chosen getting 2W to me makes sense, especially since these are marines holding favour of chaos and extra ruinous powers can easily equal if not surpass the effects Cawl made for sheer killiness, issue is now what do we do with Terminators and Possessed? If Plague and Ruberic marines go 2W then their terminators would need to be bumped up to 3 and things start to get messy fast.
Would still love to see it, but I could easily see it veering into either 'too good' or 'too bad' very quickly!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 15:08:14
Subject: Re:2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Two wounds would be a huge deal, and would need a couple points extra-cost for sure. As neat as it would be, it would make Rubrics, etc. extremely good. Two wounds on a basic model is a tremendous asset.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 15:14:29
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Dunno... if they increase the points with it i would rather have rubrics stay at 1 wound and shave a couple points off. They just aren't really worth anything and are worse than alot of other troops.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 15:19:52
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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Gir Spirit Bane wrote: Galef wrote:I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base (and give Primaris something else like S5/T5).-
That gives some serious issues I find compared to a lot of other choices, I'm very glad Primaris aren't S5/T5! My Tyranid warriors already suck in comparison to Primaris marines, alongside so many other supposedly 'tough' infantry units point for point. (Necrons, Tyranids and so on).
Chosen/cult marines would be amazing with 2w a piece, hell if any marine deserves it, Plague and Ruberic marines especially since Plague marines are mostly expendable regenerating mass and Ruberics literally have no weakpoint that isn't being ripped apart.
Chosen getting 2W to me makes sense, especially since these are marines holding favour of chaos and extra ruinous powers can easily equal if not surpass the effects Cawl made for sheer killiness, issue is now what do we do with Terminators and Possessed? If Plague and Ruberic marines go 2W then their terminators would need to be bumped up to 3 and things start to get messy fast.
Would still love to see it, but I could easily see it veering into either 'too good' or 'too bad' very quickly!
The S/T5 suggestion would also go along with bumping S/T across many other units. GW boxed themselves in for design space but limiting T to only up to 7/8 on most things
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 15:49:20
Subject: Re:2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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One thing not being discussed is the fact that these units are all troops choices in their particular armies but elites in non cult legions so giving them 2 wounds would make basic csm even worse.
Leaving chosen out would mean many players would only play cult armies.
I'm not saying it's bad to give them more wounds but something would need to be given to non cult units to balance it out. Preferably not just making them cheaper.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 15:57:41
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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One thing could be that chosen will go to 2 Wounds since they are the "cult" equivalent of undivided right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:02:51
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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vict0988 wrote:It would probably make them about as pts efficient as Primaris. Zerkers would benefit the most IMO, Noise Marines the least, Rubrics and Plague Marines would both become a lot better but not as much better as Zerkers. But if Chaos got better Chapter Tactics or non-Soup benefits in addition to 2 wounds they'd be even more OP than SM IMO.
Don't get your hopes up I really doubt they'd double the wounds characteristic of a non-Primaris unit.
I'd say Noise Marines would benefit a decent amount. Assuming around the same point costs as now, buying them a Sonic Blaster is only a little more expensive than the ABR Intercessor, and they would ignore cover and have a Chainsword they can buy.
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:06:42
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer
The dark hollows of Kentucky
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Biasn wrote:One thing could be that chosen will go to 2 Wounds since they are the "cult" equivalent of undivided right?
Yes that could be argued and I quiet like them but they don't fill a troops slot. Which means undivided would suddenly have considerably weaker troops.
Personally I'd settle for being able to take raptors as troops again in my night lords but that wouldn't help the other undevided legions.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:08:35
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Powerful Ushbati
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All CSM should be 2 wounds. Otherwise it will just be another two years of waiting until Chaoticus Primaris Fallenus™ come out and we have to buy our entire army all over again.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:10:08
Subject: Re:2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Morphing Obliterator
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An extra wound isn't going to fix the existing CSM problems.
It would barely move the needle.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:20:58
Subject: Re:2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Not only 2W sounds more like wishlist than anything else, but it would not help CSM at all.
Primaris SM have 2W and 2A but it's not the reasons why they are good. They are good because they have good weapons, traits and stratagems that support them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:22:32
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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This will be a substantial bonus, but it needs to coincide with an increase in points. Nothing too big, but a slight bump for sure.
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-~Ishagu~- |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:30:59
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
No, it's so the average number of wounds is 2 for Terminators (who are 2 wounds) and 1 for Plague Marines (who are 1 wound).
I could do the math on 90% kill chance, but that's a LOT of anydice work-the averages work well enough to prove my point, I think.
Ishagu wrote:This will be a substantial bonus, but it needs to coincide with an increase in points. Nothing too big, but a slight bump for sure.
Just like how when Tactical Marines got new strats and free AP on their weapons, they went up!
Wait...
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:32:22
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter
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So are Guard going to get 6 shots per model or 8 shots per model next edition to make up for the fact that they keep making everything else bigger and tougher?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:33:06
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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JNAProductions wrote:Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
No, it's so the average number of wounds is 2 for Terminators (who are 2 wounds) and 1 for Plague Marines (who are 1 wound).
I could do the math on 90% kill chance, but that's a LOT of anydice work-the averages work well enough to prove my point, I think.
Ishagu wrote:This will be a substantial bonus, but it needs to coincide with an increase in points. Nothing too big, but a slight bump for sure.
Just like how when Tactical Marines got new strats and free AP on their weapons, they went up!
Wait...
Oh relax lol. Chaos Marines have been better than the loyalists for the last two years. A change in core stats should come alongside a price bump, not to mention that as things stand Chaos don't lose anything for allying with other sub factions, unlike the loyalist Astartes.
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-~Ishagu~- |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:34:23
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Ishagu wrote: JNAProductions wrote:Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
No, it's so the average number of wounds is 2 for Terminators (who are 2 wounds) and 1 for Plague Marines (who are 1 wound).
I could do the math on 90% kill chance, but that's a LOT of anydice work-the averages work well enough to prove my point, I think.
Ishagu wrote:This will be a substantial bonus, but it needs to coincide with an increase in points. Nothing too big, but a slight bump for sure.
Just like how when Tactical Marines got new strats and free AP on their weapons, they went up!
Wait...
Oh relax lol. Chaos Marines have been better than the loyalists for the last two years. A change in core stats should come alongside a price bump, not to mention that as things stand Chaos don't lose anything for allying with other sub factions, unlike the loyalist Astartes.
"They were better before, so they deserve to be crap now" is a terrible argument. Even "They were better before, so it's okay that they're crap now" is terrible.
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:36:24
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Morphing Obliterator
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AnomanderRake wrote:So are Guard going to get 6 shots per model or 8 shots per model next edition to make up for the fact that they keep making everything else bigger and tougher?
I'm developing a theory that GW is pumping up the lethality to get the game down to a single turn involving very little beyond the initiative roll. This would allow them to increase the default points level for tournaments while reducing the time taken for each round. We could have 12 round tournaments done in a single day.
Step 1: Deploy.
Step 2: Roll Initiative
Step 3: Pick up your models, move to your next match.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:36:36
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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JNAProductions wrote: Ishagu wrote: JNAProductions wrote:Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I think what you mean by "Hits to kill" is "number of hits so that the average number of wound is 1". It's a very natural way of thinking, but, while harder to computer, "Number of hits so that you have a 90% chance of killing" is more interesting. (change 90% for value you consider appropriate)
No, it's so the average number of wounds is 2 for Terminators (who are 2 wounds) and 1 for Plague Marines (who are 1 wound).
I could do the math on 90% kill chance, but that's a LOT of anydice work-the averages work well enough to prove my point, I think.
Ishagu wrote:This will be a substantial bonus, but it needs to coincide with an increase in points. Nothing too big, but a slight bump for sure.
Just like how when Tactical Marines got new strats and free AP on their weapons, they went up!
Wait...
Oh relax lol. Chaos Marines have been better than the loyalists for the last two years. A change in core stats should come alongside a price bump, not to mention that as things stand Chaos don't lose anything for allying with other sub factions, unlike the loyalist Astartes.
"They were better before, so they deserve to be crap now" is a terrible argument. Even "They were better before, so it's okay that they're crap now" is terrible.
I'm not making that argument lol.
I'm telling you to relax. We don't know what updated Chaos will be getting yet.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/07 16:38:39
-~Ishagu~- |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:37:52
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Humming Great Unclean One of Nurgle
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Ishagu wrote:I'm not making that argument lol.
I'm telling you to relax. We don't know what updated Chaos will be getting yet.
Why should I have to wait to be updated for my army to not suck compared to Marines?
Hell, we technically got a 2.0 Codex! Why did ours suck so hard compared to Loyalists'?
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Clocks for the clockmaker! Cogs for the cog throne! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:38:25
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Ishagu wrote:Oh relax lol. Chaos Marines have been better than the loyalists for the last two years. A change in core stats should come alongside a price bump, not to mention that as things stand Chaos don't lose anything for allying with other sub factions, unlike the loyalist Astartes.
FFS, until a couple months ago you didn't lose anything by allying with other sub-factions.
But hey, keep rolling with the collective punishment reasoning.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:41:14
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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Chaos don't suck, but they aren't currently as good.
Chaos lists went 5 and 1 at major events recently. Just be patient until PA comes out so we can see what we're working with.
I Think TS and DG are due a new codex, too.
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-~Ishagu~- |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:45:24
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Ishagu wrote:Chaos don't suck, but they aren't currently as good.
Chaos lists went 5 and 1 at major events recently. Just be patient until PA comes out so we can see what we're working with.
I Think TS and DG are due a new codex, too.
First of all, the Loyalist 'be patient' line is going to get about as much goodwill as you imagine it would, in fact, the opposite.
Second, CSM is getting jack gak, we got a codex within the last six months, we're not going to see anything beyond PA for at least 6 months.
Lastly, please cite your data, don't spout the '4 out of 5 dentists' line.
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:49:00
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Ultramarine Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control
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The BCP app has lots of performance data from events like the SoCal open?
I really think we should wait and see what PA2 brings.
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-~Ishagu~- |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2019/11/07 16:49:47
Subject: 2 Wounds for Cult Marines enough?
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Morphing Obliterator
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Ishagu wrote:The BCP app has lots of performance data from events like the SoCal open?
I really think we should wait and see what PA2 brings.
Oh you mean SCO where the only Chaos lists that placed above 50 were RK lists?
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"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative." |
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