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Karol wrote:
wasn't that how fantasy ended, they hyped up a ton of books, and hinted at new stuff coming up, only to then make AoS and leave people with hundrades of dollars spend on stuff, they could no longer use?

It was literally called "The End Times". Nothing was hinted and everyone was going in blind. This process doesn't even compare to how brutal that was.

If Chaos were to get any kinds of buffs to their profile, it would be some Rando chart.

+1 Wound
+1 Attack
+1 WS
+1 Ld
+1 Charge/advance

And then on a roll of a 1 you get nothing.

2W will not fix cult marines, but it would help.

Berzerkers get a lot out of it because their main issue is durability. 2W means more shooting will have to be committed to stop them, or that more will survive the same amount of shooting and get into CC. But it doesn't help with their overall problem of being a melee unit.

Plague Marines get a lot of efficiency out of it due to their other durability bonuses, but it doesn't address the issue that keeps them from being fielded. PMs are already fairly durable for their cost. What they lack is firepower. Their main problem is s4 ap 0 on their bolters, and Chaos having no source of re-roll wounds of 1 for ranged. If they got plague weapon on their bolters too then it'd get interesting.

Rubrics get a fair bit out of it. Their firepower is already decent at ranged, and they are supposed to be bad at melee but tough to shift. Probably the biggest improvement.

Noise Marines don't benefit much for the same reason as plague marines. They could use the extra durability, but their big problem is lack of firepower due to s4 ap0. Sonic blasters are not good at their current cost. If sonic weapons got restatted to be more killy, then this would help. But then melee noise marines are still not worth it because they are also s4 ap0.

In all cases except berzerkers, if this comes with a point increase then its crap because that dilutes their offensive efficiency even more.

Overall, Chaos marine infantry won't be worth using until it receives special rules/buffs of equivalent magnitude to the new SM codex. 2W could be part of that, but it's not enough to make these worth taking.

Also, reminder that Chaos being involved in winning tournaments is due to units other than CSM infantry. I'm not content to have CSM infantry stay bad just because disco lords + daemon princes + plague bearer lists are scoring, and you shouldn't be content with this situation either.

Ill never understand the logic of "If they give a buff to this bad unit they should make it more expensive!"
But.... Doesnt that neuter the objetive of the buff? Unless the buffs are so big you need to make them more expensive to compensate.
Not that I oppose things being more expensive. Quite the contrary. I like it, less models per army plis GW. But I find it a faulty logic.
And lol at people cryng for cheap infantry and their poor 1 damage weapons.

1W marines are absolute terrible and they fell extremely horrible to play or even play agaisnt with how easy they die to basic shooting. This is not a defense of the crazy marine supplements. But I always feel bad with those 16-25 ppm T4 3+sv marine units dyng like smuchts.
Cult marines should be Chaos primaris.
I mean, in AoS all elite infantry is 2W and nothing has happened. And the game is less killy than 40k.

But this post reminds me the "INFANTRY SQUADS WILL BE 5PPM I WAS TOLD". So many pages of rage for nothing.

Meh. We're probably being trolled anyway.

 Galas wrote:
Ill never understand the logic of "If they give a buff to this bad unit they should make it more expensive!"
But.... Doesnt that neuter the objetive of the buff? Unless the buffs are so big you need to make them more expensive to compensate.
Not that I oppose things being more expensive. Quite the contrary. I like it, less models per army plis GW. But I find it a faulty logic.
And lol at people cryng for cheap infantry and their poor 1 damage weapons.

1W marines are absolute terrible and they fell extremely horrible to play or even play agaisnt with how easy they die to basic shooting. This is not a defense of the crazy marine supplements. But I always feel bad with those 16-25 ppm T4 3+sv marine units dyng like smuchts.
Cult marines should be Chaos primaris.
I mean, in AoS all elite infantry is 2W and nothing has happened. And the game is less killy than 40k.

But this post reminds me the "INFANTRY SQUADS WILL BE 5PPM I WAS TOLD". So many pages of rage for nothing.

For me, this issue is the amount of the increase proportionately. 12-13ppm Marines doubling in wounds is an almost doubling of durability (I say "almost" because multi-damage weapons still remove them at the same rate)

In reality, they should (for their current points cost) only get a half wound increase. But half wounds aren't a thing, thank goodness.
So you double their wounds, but increase them by only 1-2ppm. 15ppm Marines are about right for 2W as-is (with doctrines and such) and unless Chaos get doctrine equivalents, 13-14ppm is right for Chaos Marines.

And yes, they are currently 13ppm for 1W, but given all that Loyalist get for 12ppm, CSMs should be 11ppm right now. So giving them 2W for no point increase works.
But Loyalists getting 2W should come with a 2-3ppm increase

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 AnomanderRake wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
...Provided the 2nd wound comes at no cost...

So are you going to make D1 weapons cheaper or double their rate of fire to compensate for the fact that you're making things 2x as durable against them for free?

Factions like AM already get an obnoxious amount of firepower for the points it costs to field them. I've played against AM armies that can have (I could be fuzzy on exact numbers) a unit of I think 10 units throwing out 40 shots at me when I am trying to close distance with my troops. The weight of fire is already pretty crazy, so we don't need to see 1d weapons get a bump if we see a handful of troops go to 2W. I find that suggestion silly.


Edit - Now, it is fair to leave the door open for future changes, as we have seen GW do this edition. So if they did implement this change, and then it turns to be too much of a boost, we would see an adjustment. That being said, I still don't see how 1d weapons need a boost, because they certainly already provide plenty of punch in large number - which is how they should be used in this edition, yeah?

 Galas wrote:
Ill never understand the logic of "If they give a buff to this bad unit they should make it more expensive!"
But.... Doesnt that neuter the objetive of the buff?

This. If the units are in need of a buff they are alredy paying more points than they are worth, meaning there is room to add power to the unit without making it OP.

Probably better to have a 9th edition with enough changes to make 1 wound models that aren't chaff like guard or cultists good choices...

Currently the trend is towards 2 wound models to get round the sheer volume of fire in the shooting phase, if that continues every shooting army will basically need a 2 wound shooting set up.

I think the 'solution' of primaris having 2 wounds and anti horde silly level firepower units (some infantry units potentially putting out more anti infantry fire than dedicated super heavies...) just bends things more out of shape.

Biasn wrote:
So there is apparently a rumor that cult marines will go up to 2 wounds (rubrics , noise marines etc). If that would be true do you guys think it will be enough to straight up fix them?

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/359378-chaos-rumors-in-psychic-awakening-2/?p=5421382

As you would see if you read further down in the B&C thread, the pic with those rumors come from me at my Hexfleet Virules Facebook page (link in sig). Some jackass took my post and carefully cropped out my page name and references and then spread that all over Discord. I mentioned on the B&C what happened (where I post under the username Lagrath), after which Spikey Bits and Faet reposted the cropped picture and referenced my B&C handle rather than my page, hah.

I think 2 wounds is the least likely of those changes, but I posted it as a possibility because more than one person with good contacts mentioned that it was happening. I don't have any direct knowledge or confirmation that it is true, but it's popped up enough to be a worthwhile rumor.

 Galef wrote:
I've said from the beginning of 8E that ALL Marines should have been 2W/2A base . .

Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.

Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....

And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws

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Honestly I will heartily accept anything that makes 8th less deadly.

You want 2W cult marines? Great, do it.

You want 2W chosen? Sure.

You want T5 on ork nobz and better? Sounds right to me.

The offense vs defense paradigm in the game right now is completely F-d up for everything that's not the lowliest infantry.Tanks go up like firecrackers. Elite infantry dies like chumps. Anti-infantry guns pour out 40 dice in a shooting phase. basic marines pop a strat and hit you with 40 S4 Ap-2 ignore cover shots.

 Galef wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.

Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....

And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws

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Don't bother with Insectum. He's convinced that Manlet Marines were powerful even after all the power creep that happened straight with the Eldar codex onwards.

 Galef wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.

Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....

And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws
-

The sergeants of all factions do not need to be more wounds. Ork "Sergeants" have more wounds simply because they respect the biggest Ork around. The size of an Ork is linked to their status, almost directly. Exarchs are not "Sergeants", they are more like heroes. Originally they had roughly the stats of a Space Marine Captain, and acted as individuals.

A Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran is neither of those. He's just a more experienced Space Marine. The only reason I don't mind it on Terminators is because the extra wound is a mechanical function of the armor, not the marine.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Don't bother with Insectum. He's convinced that Manlet Marines were powerful even after all the power creep that happened straight with the Eldar codex onwards.

A: SM weren't top tier, but I had plenty of success with them. The new books feel like straight up cheating.

B: Don't bother with Slayer, he thinks CSM's don't belong in the CSM codex.

First of all. There is nothing wrong with many cult marines. Just give them freaking doctrines. There is no excuse for them to not have the same AP bonus as their imperial counter parts. Some might need point increases like noise marines and berserks after the changes but...overall that would fix them or at least make them playable. Though it is fair to say - most choas power revolves around making units shoot twice. This amplifies the doctrine bonus significantly. CP of that ability would have to be increased.

They are the tactical/stern/vangaurd equivalents. Choas has not primaris equivalents because they don't have the tech. Realistically - their primaris are possessed - which are in fact very good under the right situation and buffs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.

Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....

And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws
-

The sergeants of all factions do not need to be more wounds. Ork "Sergeants" have more wounds simply because they respect the biggest Ork around. The size of an Ork is linked to their status, almost directly. Exarchs are not "Sergeants", they are more like heroes. Originally they had roughly the stats of a Space Marine Captain, and acted as individuals.

A Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran is neither of those. He's just a more experienced Space Marine. The only reason I don't mind it on Terminators is because the extra wound is a mechanical function of the armor, not the marine.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Don't bother with Insectum. He's convinced that Manlet Marines were powerful even after all the power creep that happened straight with the Eldar codex onwards.

A: SM weren't top tier, but I had plenty of success with them. The new books feel like straight up cheating.

B: Don't bother with Slayer, he thinks CSM's don't belong in the CSM codex.

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The basic Chaos Marine profile has no place in the CSM codex. It doesn't represent Legions proper.

"The new books" You mean Ironhands and Imperial fists right? Ultramarines are really strong but they aren't winning events because no one even plays them. They are that much weaker than IH/IF it is laughable how those 2 supplements made it through.

Pray tell, under what circumstances are Possessed good?

@Xenomancers: I understand you have your biases regarding the other books. But the UM feels like cheating, too.

which are in fact very good under the right situation and buffs.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Nope. A Space Marine is as tough as an Ork, wrapped in armor as protective as heavy Aspect Armor, and stronger and more disciplined than both. That's where they should be.

Which Ork? Nobs have 2Ws and are just Ork Sgts. So surely at least Marine Sgts/CSM unit Champions should also be 2Ws? Eldar Aspect Exarchs (their Sgt equipvalents) are also 2Ws, so....

And since Elite units like Vets and Chosen are basically units of all Sgts/Champions, then by your own analogy, those units at the very least should have 2Ws
-

The sergeants of all factions do not need to be more wounds. Ork "Sergeants" have more wounds simply because they respect the biggest Ork around. The size of an Ork is linked to their status, almost directly. Exarchs are not "Sergeants", they are more like heroes. Originally they had roughly the stats of a Space Marine Captain, and acted as individuals.

A Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran is neither of those. He's just a more experienced Space Marine. The only reason I don't mind it on Terminators is because the extra wound is a mechanical function of the armor, not the marine.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Don't bother with Insectum. He's convinced that Manlet Marines were powerful even after all the power creep that happened straight with the Eldar codex onwards.

A: SM weren't top tier, but I had plenty of success with them. The new books feel like straight up cheating.

B: Don't bother with Slayer, he thinks CSM's don't belong in the CSM codex.

Spoiler:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
The basic Chaos Marine profile has no place in the CSM codex. It doesn't represent Legions proper.

Yeah, the Chaos Marine profile has no place in the codex which is why it should be tossed out in favor of making Chosen the base Troops.

I'm not wrong. The entry is really only there for Renegades, which would be better represented through the Loyalist codex via switching of keywords.

I've been over this multiple times.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pray tell, under what circumstances are Possessed good?

Duuuude..... The biggest problem with possessed is getting them there (and maybe a little expensive in perspective of new marines).

D3+2 S6(7 with a GP) AP2 attacks causing mortal wounds on 6s to wound (in addition to normal dmg) with a 3+/5++ W2 @ 20 points.

Requires a MoP, WL, and CP spend though - pretty minimal overall, but you need rhinos for them (and anti-sniping).

Possessed are base Strength 5 with d3 attacks. +1 for Shock Assault, usually.
A Dark Apostle can give them +1 to-wound with a Prayer.
Vessels For The Neverborn can give them +1 Strength and Attack. (1 CP)
And the Warlord Trait from that formation can give you natural 6s to-wound as an extra Mortal.
Heralds (of the Daemon variety) can give them +1 Strength per mark they have, which (for 1 CP) can be all 4.
Greater Possessed can give them an extra +1 Strength.
Veterans of the Long War, of course, can give them +1 to-wound.
Prescience can give them +1 to-hit.

So, in total, you can get 20 Possessed, with d3+2 attacks, at Strength 11, with +2 to-wound and +1 to-hit.

But, the issue is cost. In a vacuum, that looks nice, but in practice... Not so much.

 Karthicus wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
...Provided the 2nd wound comes at no cost...

So are you going to make D1 weapons cheaper or double their rate of fire to compensate for the fact that you're making things 2x as durable against them for free?

Factions like AM already get an obnoxious amount of firepower for the points it costs to field them. I've played against AM armies that can have (I could be fuzzy on exact numbers) a unit of I think 10 units throwing out 40 shots at me when I am trying to close distance with my troops. The weight of fire is already pretty crazy, so we don't need to see 1d weapons get a bump if we see a handful of troops go to 2W. I find that suggestion silly.


Edit - Now, it is fair to leave the door open for future changes, as we have seen GW do this edition. So if they did implement this change, and then it turns to be too much of a boost, we would see an adjustment. That being said, I still don't see how 1d weapons need a boost, because they certainly already provide plenty of punch in large number - which is how they should be used in this edition, yeah?

The weight of fire keeps getting pushed higher and higher because weaker weapons (particularly lasguns) are completely pointless without four shots a model. Consider a Space Marine in cover. 4+ to hit/5+ to wound/2+ save means you need 36 lasgun shots on average to remove that model. 72 lasgun shots if it's a Primaris Marine or a Cult CSM model under this proposed change. FRF/SRF exists because durability creep has squashed the bottom end to the point that lasguns are pretty pointless without it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been over this multiple times.

And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pray tell, under what circumstances are Possessed good?

Forget the exact build but they can be made pretty resilient with some way to do mortals on 6's rerolling wounds. It's silly but they are good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Xenomancers: I understand you have your biases regarding the other books. But the UM feels like cheating, too.

It's not bias. It is objective truth. Ultramarines are terrible compared to ironhands or IF.

Ultramarines are competitive don't get me wrong...they are not competitive against ironhands or IF....Youve got to get real. For all the squaking about marines being OP it is really just the superdoctrines of ironhands and IF and over abundance of power on traits...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Possessed are base Strength 5 with d3 attacks. +1 for Shock Assault, usually.
A Dark Apostle can give them +1 to-wound with a Prayer.
Vessels For The Neverborn can give them +1 Strength and Attack. (1 CP)
And the Warlord Trait from that formation can give you natural 6s to-wound as an extra Mortal.
Heralds (of the Daemon variety) can give them +1 Strength per mark they have, which (for 1 CP) can be all 4.
Greater Possessed can give them an extra +1 Strength.
Veterans of the Long War, of course, can give them +1 to-wound.
Prescience can give them +1 to-hit.

So, in total, you can get 20 Possessed, with d3+2 attacks, at Strength 11, with +2 to-wound and +1 to-hit.

But, the issue is cost. In a vacuum, that looks nice, but in practice... Not so much.

More importantly you give them a -2 to hit and a 4++ save. Mortals on a 6 warlord trait and +2 to wound abilities.

 JNAProductions wrote:


But, the issue is cost. In a vacuum, that looks nice, but in practice... Not so much.

Yea that's way too much stuff. A WL and MoP or GP do the job just fine. The rest is usually massive overkill unless you're knight hunting.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
@Xenomancers: I understand you have your biases regarding the other books. But the UM feels like cheating, too.

It's not bias. It is objective truth. Ultramarines are terrible compared to ironhands or IF.

Ultramarines are competitive don't get me wrong...they are not competitive against ironhands or IF....Youve got to get real. For all the squaking about marines being OP it is really just the superdoctrines of ironhands and IF and over abundance of power on traits...

IH and IF have easy power-combos, so they're popular for tournaments. That doesn't preclude UM feeling like cheating against the rest of what's out there. Overall I am not a fan of the supplements.

But this is off-topic, so let's move on.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I've been over this multiple times.

And you've been wrong multiple times. CSMs aren't automatically bad*** veterans of millenia, they run the whole gamut.

Yeah and you're talking about Renegades which would be better represented via the Loyalist codex.

So yeah I am right.

I don't even want to think how this will affect the cost. I mean, is wounds really the answer that CSM need? I would much rather my Bezerkers be more Bezerkery. I would much rather the powers of the gods that I am paying money to toss around actually do something other than give one model +1 something.

CSM needs to be more glass cannon. They need to be easier to be able to rip apart anything they can lay their hands on. They should be the melee super focused army that can't be stopped. Instead they are getting out meleed by green cockney mushrooms and paper elves.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I mean, is wounds really the answer that CSM need?

No, it isn't THE answer. Most would agree that THE answer is going to involve points drops and something equivalent to Doctrines.
But 2W Cult marines is AN answer, specifically to the question of "What is the Chaos equivalent to Primaris"

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