What units do you want to see improved or changed, and why?

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**Argive**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Karol wrote:
I wouldnt know where to start.

Well some dexes have units that need improving, and other dexes just need improvements overall.

Probably the worst exemple out of the dex therefore?

It does depend some on why it's the worst unit in the book. The reasons GK Purgators are kind of crap are intimately tied into the reasons why GK in general are kind of crap (forced to buy expensive melee weapons with only 1 Attack, forced to be psykers for little to no practical gain, Tactical Marine statline), for instance.

A demon prince sized plastic model then

Its the pinnacle of Eldar occult/technology and is a incarnation of their shattered god of war that breathes fire and is made of melting/superheated metal...
TTBH I think he's very nieche HQ for eldar(as in hes actualy a decent beatstick), and I would play him a lot if he was say 50-60 points cheaper.

**BrianDavion**

low-medium power Melee units.

by that I mean, that super powerful melee units seem to definatly have a place, smash captains etc. but units like howling banshees, assault marines etc. just seem too weak. and I'd really like to see that improved, I think a big part of it is they just lack sufficant attacks. Using say.. assault marines vs tac marines, for example, why would I waste my time on attempting assault, with a unit with 2 S4 ap - attacks, when I could instead make 2 S4 AP - attacks at long range. I'd really like GW to go back and buff these types of units over all,

**Drudge Dreadnought**

Heavy/Elite infantry of all sorts has kind of lost its role. Terminators, Nobz, Meganobz, etc. These are units that, in previous editions, were not efficient to kill with small arms fire. They usually needed plasma or heavy weapons to kill efficiently. But in 8th, we end up with a situation where small arms are not less efficient against these units (point per point.)

Most of these guys just need another wound (usually putting to w3) to regain their lost role. This will also introduce targeting choices for high D weapons between elite infantry and vehicles.

Most of us will remember the silliness of Nob bikers and Paladin armies in 5th where being W2 and having those whacky wound allocation rules made them really ridiculous. Those lists were too powerful. But there was something to those hard to kill units. It just shouldn't be quite that bad. But with 8th's wound and D system, it wouldn't be.

**Gir Spirit Bane**

*cracks knuckles*

Most Tyranid monstrous creatures.

Only 2 in the codex have a invun, Hive Tyrant (good unit!) or Maelceptor (Literally never seen it fielded. Ever.)

Our toughness is very meh and our armour saves are poor to middling (very common to have 4+ on MC's, and our only 2+ save unit the tyrannofex lost it in 8th and our option to take it on Hive Tyrants is gone aswell)

We just need more wounds or toughness to make up for lack of invun saves because lists are designed to deal with 24W T8 5++ knights so what hope does our non invun T7/T8 14W 3+ Mc's have?

**Karol**

AnomanderRake wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
Karol wrote:
I wouldnt know where to start.

Well some dexes have units that need improving, and other dexes just need improvements overall.

Probably the worst exemple out of the dex therefore?

It does depend some on why it's the worst unit in the book. The reasons GK Purgators are kind of crap are intimately tied into the reasons why GK in general are kind of crap (forced to buy expensive melee weapons with only 1 Attack, forced to be psykers for little to no practical gain, Tactical Marine statline), for instance.

purgators aren't the worse people take them naked, to get detachments. Really bad stuff is something like a GK techmarine, costs more then a loyalist one, although one has to say GW did cut his cost in half comparing to what was in the codex originaly, but he doesn't have the thunder cannon option. Would he be better with it? of course, would it make GK good, because of the change, I have my doubts. On the other hand something like interceptors, probably one of best GK units, could really be army making, if it had some extra rule support. Or at least had characters that could go with it, without being shot to bits for being over 9wounds.

And then there is selfish reasons, I would really like for either GK termintors or paladins to be real good. Doesn't have to be centurion or scout dreadnought good, but some synergy rules, maybe buffing characters that are near them or getting buffed if there are characters near them. But again this is me, being selfish and not picking worse GK unit to fix.

**Not Online!!!**

So,let's see:

CSM:

Spoiler:

R&H

Spoiler:

Orkz

Spoiler:

**godardc**

Kanluwen wrote:
godardc wrote:

That makes no sense why would they be equiped differently ? They are just raw recruits so being less competent is somehow logical but they have to have the same gear

If you want the fluff reason?
It's because "Conscripts" covers everything from locally sourced recruits to actual Guardsmen undergoing their indoctrination/training.
Generally, they get a flak vest rather than the whole 'suit' of armor(hence the lesser save) and whatever weapons can be locally sourced.

Mechanically, it allows for a rework of the whole damn lasgun finally. Plus, tired of whining about Conscripts being "too good!".

Then call them militia of something

**Not Online!!!**

godardc wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
godardc wrote:

That makes no sense why would they be equiped differently ? They are just raw recruits so being less competent is somehow logical but they have to have the same gear

If you want the fluff reason?
It's because "Conscripts" covers everything from locally sourced recruits to actual Guardsmen undergoing their indoctrination/training.
Generally, they get a flak vest rather than the whole 'suit' of armor(hence the lesser save) and whatever weapons can be locally sourced.

Mechanically, it allows for a rework of the whole damn lasgun finally. Plus, tired of whining about Conscripts being "too good!".

Then call them militia of something

Militia is how GW refers to standard infantry of R&H....

**Tyranid Horde**

Howling Banshees and/or the less seen aspects in the Eldar book.

Psychic Awakening was a half-assed job and just added to the rules bloat in the game and didn't add meaningful changes to the units that were struggling.

**Karol**

What if foot eldar all got something like a flat 3" buff to movment and charge?

exept for the homos and wrecks.

**Not Online!!!**

Karol wrote:
What if foot eldar all got something like a flat 3" buff to movment and charge?

exept for the homos and wrecks.

That would not solve the issues for beeing weak Melee aspects (too few attacks with s3 suck believe me and i run a horde of S3 /4 melee, which can take losses what eldar can't)

And the shooty aspects wouldn't want to go to melee for obvious reasons.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tyranid Horde wrote:
Howling Banshees and/or the less seen aspects in the Eldar book.

Psychic Awakening was a half-assed job and just added to the rules bloat in the game and didn't add meaningful changes to the units that were struggling.

Welcome to vigilus 3 eerrrrmrm i meant PA.
Also welcome to the club, GW couldn't even be bothered to not mark bind the Renegade traits for CSM soo i am not surprised that it is basically worthless.
Atleast you got your own build a trat rules , unlike us....

ok that also doesn't really help does it.

**Tyranid Horde**

Unfortunately just movement buffs don't affect the core issues with the aspect warriors in general. They're meant to fit a niche and with the editions changing they weren't changed to keep up with them so they feel like legacy units at this point.

**godardc**

Not Online!!! wrote:
godardc wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
godardc wrote:

That makes no sense why would they be equiped differently ? They are just raw recruits so being less competent is somehow logical but they have to have the same gear

If you want the fluff reason?
It's because "Conscripts" covers everything from locally sourced recruits to actual Guardsmen undergoing their indoctrination/training.
Generally, they get a flak vest rather than the whole 'suit' of armor(hence the lesser save) and whatever weapons can be locally sourced.

Mechanically, it allows for a rework of the whole damn lasgun finally. Plus, tired of whining about Conscripts being "too good!".

Then call them militia of something

Militia is how GW refers to standard infantry of R&H....

Yes exactly that's why I proposed militia: because 6+ and autogun instead of 5+ and lasgun look pretty much the same. Imperial Militia if you prefer.

**Not Online!!!**

godardc wrote:
Not Online!!! wrote:
godardc wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
godardc wrote:

That makes no sense why would they be equiped differently ? They are just raw recruits so being less competent is somehow logical but they have to have the same gear

If you want the fluff reason?
It's because "Conscripts" covers everything from locally sourced recruits to actual Guardsmen undergoing their indoctrination/training.
Generally, they get a flak vest rather than the whole 'suit' of armor(hence the lesser save) and whatever weapons can be locally sourced.

Mechanically, it allows for a rework of the whole damn lasgun finally. Plus, tired of whining about Conscripts being "too good!".

Then call them militia of something

Militia is how GW refers to standard infantry of R&H....

Yes exactly that's why I proposed militia: because 6+ and autogun instead of 5+ and lasgun look pretty much the same. Imperial Militia if you prefer.

No. Militia also still pays 4 ppm.
So yes i am opposed to such a change.
Further not all of these units use Autoguns, because they don't have too thanks to the lasgun.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Morale
Character rules
Stratagems
Orks
Necrons
Vehicles
Weapon Balance
Fall Back
Keywords not really having that much of an impact even though they are supposed to be important.

Just from the top of my head.

Edit : Oh, you mean units. Sorry, misread.
In that case

- Squigbuggy
---Useless. There is no real niche for it in an ork list. Its meant to provide long range fire support, but mech guns are better than that, its expensive, the mine is useless, and it doesn't have support abilities.
Here's how I would improve it:
Give it indirect fire, to give it more of a niche and to represent squigs getting lobbed out and going after targets
Give it ammo types that provide buffs, like smoke squigs (provides cover) or beer squigs (buffs morale and offense)
Allow the mine to move (because its a squig, which I'm assuming still has legs)

- Snazzwagon
--So have a unit that's meant to be a harassment / kamikaze type light vehicle, but its expensive for its role and damage output, and it has variable explosion distance which counteracts its improved explosion chance
Reduce cost to 70-80 and increase explosion radius to 6"

-Burnaboyz
-- Just useless. Needs to be D6 on the flamers.

- Deathmarks
-- Needs their marking ability back so they can actually have a good chance of assassination before dying.

- Flayed Ones
-- Just needs to be cheaper, really.

- Monolith

- Destroyer Lord
-- More attacks, 2+ WS and an invul. Its buff would be fine if destroyers could also take melee weapons. Having a unit that wants to be in combat buff a unit that wants to shoot feels weird.
That or allow the Destroyer lord to give a minor buff to non-Destroyers, but a strong buff to Destroyers.

-All necron HQ in general
-- Need better auras. Necron buff ranges are really short compared to other factions.

**Kanluwen**

godardc wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
godardc wrote:

That makes no sense why would they be equiped differently ? They are just raw recruits so being less competent is somehow logical but they have to have the same gear

If you want the fluff reason?
It's because "Conscripts" covers everything from locally sourced recruits to actual Guardsmen undergoing their indoctrination/training.
Generally, they get a flak vest rather than the whole 'suit' of armor(hence the lesser save) and whatever weapons can be locally sourced.

Mechanically, it allows for a rework of the whole damn lasgun finally. Plus, tired of whining about Conscripts being "too good!".

Then call them militia of something

Why?

That's what Conscripts are for the Guard book's purposes.

**BrianDavion**

Tyranid Horde wrote:
Unfortunately just movement buffs don't affect the core issues with the aspect warriors in general. They're meant to fit a niche and with the editions changing they weren't changed to keep up with them so they feel like legacy units at this point.

agreed. as I said this is an issue that impactds more then just eldar melee units. a lot of the basic basic old time melee units, like the eldar ones, assault marines etc, all have the same problem, too few attacks with weapons that just don't have sufficant oomph.

**the_scotsman**

Karhedron wrote:
The Avatar of Khaine. Back in 2nd edition, this guy could go toe-to-toe with a Bloodthirster! I would like to see him get a new kit on par with the plastic greater Daemons and stats to match.

I kind of prefer him in his current form tbh. He's got similar damage output to bloodthirsters, but lower wounds. If a bloodthirster charges him, with average rolls he actually kills it - it takes him down to 1 wound, he deals 8.5 damage to it, then he goes first on his turn and finishes it off.

**Hawky**

Conscripts - Remove regimental bonuses but make them still able to take orders, -1 point cost, they lose double the models from failed morale, perhaps?

Veterans - Give us back the camo cloaks and carapace armor. The elite slot is not that big deal, though, at least for me.

Commissars - They should have a bigger impact on morale.

Pretty much every FW model the IG has, especially flyers and superheavies. - They are all outdated and generally overcosted / too weak.

Chimera - Point reduction

HW squad (not team) - +1 armor or invulnerable or -1 to hit when they remain stationary

Leman Russ Vanquisher - Supposed to be a dedicated tank killer. Actually the worst variant to shoot tanks with.

**Kanluwen**

Literally the whole reason we have "Conscript Platoons" now is because they wanted to carry over the "Hive Gang Militia" from the Armageddon book.

We do not need, nor should any Guard player want them to be able to take Orders or be equipped even remotely similar to Guardsmen.

**foisty-moisty**

Only the one change I can think of; make Hotshot Lasguns S4 - they are meant to be designed to deal with power armour and wounding on 5s is dumb. I'd be happy if they reduced the AP to balance them out a bit.

**the_scotsman**

foisty-moisty wrote:
Only the one change I can think of; make Hotshot Lasguns S4 - they are meant to be designed to deal with power armour and wounding on 5s is dumb. I'd be happy if they reduced the AP to balance them out a bit.

You know that increasing the strength and reducing the AP would make them...the same, right?

**Stevefamine**

Hawky wrote:
Conscripts - Remove regimental bonuses but make them still able to take orders, -1 point cost, they lose double the models from failed morale, perhaps?

Veterans - Give us back the camo cloaks and carapace armor. The elite slot is not that big deal, though, at least for me.

Commissars - They should have a bigger impact on morale.

Pretty much every FW model the IG has, especially flyers and superheavies. - They are all outdated and generally overcosted / too weak.

Chimera - Point reduction

HW squad (not team) - +1 armor or invulnerable or -1 to hit when they remain stationary

Leman Russ Vanquisher - Supposed to be a dedicated tank killer. Actually the worst variant to shoot tanks with.

3

as someone who bought a IG army and hasnt built it in 2 years.... yeah I would like these exact changes

**the_scotsman**

I would 100% accept Conscripts at 3 points if they did not count as <Regiment> models.

They would not receive orders, nor certain bonuses, but would still be affected by Commissars and Ministorum Priests as those buffs are generically "astra militarum". They would not receive regiment bonuses, just as other analogous units in other codexes like Gretchin do not.

You still get a HELL of a deal on a Conscript as opposed to a Gretchin - twice the firepower, +1 toughness, 5+ save, access to better morale and offense buffs compared to the two flavors of runtherds.

**The_Real_Chris**

the_scotsman wrote:
I would 100% accept Conscripts at 3 points if they did not count as <Regiment> models.

They would not receive orders, nor certain bonuses, but would still be affected by Commissars and Ministorum Priests as those buffs are generically "astra militarum". They would not receive regiment bonuses, just as other analogous units in other codexes like Gretchin do not.

You still get a HELL of a deal on a Conscript as opposed to a Gretchin - twice the firepower, +1 toughness, 5+ save, access to better morale and offense buffs compared to the two flavors of runtherds.

I think being able to field massive ground denial in the form of 3 point models is a bit much - better to have them as slightly better incarnations of their current selves. So probably need the same WS/BS as their parent regiment, but trade orders and on a 4+ and LD 3 points lower than a sergeant for the ability to field large units?

**Vankraken**

foisty-moisty wrote:
Only the one change I can think of; make Hotshot Lasguns S4 - they are meant to be designed to deal with power armour and wounding on 5s is dumb. I'd be happy if they reduced the AP to balance them out a bit.

A lot of weapons lost their purpose in the change from the all or nothing AP to the armor reducing system. Combine that with the changes to cover saves and it really made a lot of weapons effectively redundant.

**Vaktathi**

To be fair, the Hotshot lasgun has never worked terribly well. Ideally they'd be something like assault 3 18" (their AP or cost could be adjusted), but the 18" range coupled with rapid fire has basically ensured that stormtroopers only ever really function as min sized one-shot suicide units.

Another unit to talk about is the Deathstrike. This is a unit that really doesn't fit a tabletop game like 40k, it really should more be a mission objective device than a tactical battlefield unit. However, if it's going to be hamfisted into that role, it needs to be functional, and its just not. A one-shot variable number of mortal wounds (that wont outright kill anything either) that goes off randomly at some point in the middle of the game is just not a functional game piece. If it's going to be that unpredictable and vulnerable, with a single shot and at the cost of a battle tank, it better be capable of trivially greasing a Knight or or large group of several tough infantry units, it has to be a game changer, and at this point its not.

**Karol**

why not give them two modes of fire, would that help? a higher AP single shot, and a more dakka shorter range one.

**Kanluwen**

Vaktathi wrote:
To be fair, the Hotshot lasgun has never worked terribly well. Ideally they'd be something like assault 3 18" (their AP or cost could be adjusted), but the 18" range coupled with rapid fire has basically ensured that stormtroopers only ever really function as min sized one-shot suicide units.

Yup. It's why I've been pushing for the Assault profile instead.

Another unit to talk about is the Deathstrike. This is a unit that really doesn't fit a tabletop game like 40k, it really should more be a mission objective device than a tactical battlefield unit. However, if it's going to be hamfisted into that role, it needs to be functional, and its just not. A one-shot variable number of mortal wounds (that wont outright kill anything either) that goes off randomly at some point in the middle of the game is just not a functional game piece. If it's going to be that unpredictable and vulnerable, with a single shot and at the cost of a battle tank, it better be capable of trivially greasing a Knight or or large group of several tough infantry units, it has to be a game changer, and at this point its not.

Honestly, it would be better served as a terrain piece of some sort--or benefit from having Master of Ordnances on the field or something. There's a lot that can be done to make it work(because if we go with 'realistics' for stuff, we shouldn't see named characters yadda yadda yadda).

**The Newman**

I'd say Custodes have largely lost their place as a genuine elite army with the updates to Marines. They don't have the resilience or damage output to compete for the points anymore.