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 Strg Alt wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

At 15mm, all they'd be doing is further alienating the people who actually play Fantasy.

15 mm scale? Who had this stupid idea?! If they want to bring Fantasy back they need to do two things first:

1. Apologize to all WHFB players.
2. Trash AoS.

I second that. I would certainly forgive gw if they did yhat!

Ragweek wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

At 15mm, all they'd be doing is further alienating the people who actually play Fantasy.

15 mm scale? Who had this stupid idea?! If they want to bring Fantasy back they need to do two things first:

1. Apologize to all WHFB players.
2. Trash AoS.

I second that. I would certainly forgive gw if they did yhat!

So the lesson you want GW to learn form randomly dropping games and making gamers sad is to - repeat it again?

I mean I guess its fair, but then again if its the lesson you want GW to learn surely its setting you up for a future fall since if you want them to repeat it for AoS there's nothing to stop them repeating it again for the Old World rebirth.



IT doesn't even have to touch on the fact that AoS is now selling better than Old World had sold in quite a long time. Even if many of the faults of Old World falling were on GW and even if AoS started with one of the worst game launches in a long while. Personally I'd rather GW learned positive lessons that resulted in a net gain for them and customers/gamers so that everyone benefits.

I loved the old world and I don’t play AoS.
Very sad at what happened of course.

But to be honest, I would never forgive them if they scrapped Sigmar.
Reason being, once was a mistake. Twice, that’s just too much..

(And by all accounts, it was a good move by GW really. It’s just bitterness that makes the vocal rounds every so often..)

 Just Tony wrote:

I remember when people were saying AOS would be dead and gone before the first year was up. Then the second year, Then... well, you get the point. People played WFB for over 30 years before GW did AOS, the only thing that changed is GW themselves making it harder for people to start up.

While this is true, I think it was also because they didn't have a ready alternative to play if they wanted a game in the Warhammer Fantasy universe. It was AoS, or you went looking for hold-outs who kept playing 8E or earlier. Kings of War plays very differently, and the magic system is not anywhere close to how WHFB is. I think AoS surviving is due to a lack of a WHFB-feeling alternative, and backing from GW to get people to play. Resurrecting Oldhammer creates a problem as do you now split the base of players within your own systems? AoS wouldn't like to rebase back to squares, and Oldhammer players wouldn't want the new stuff done in round bases. They've kind of wedged themselves here.

If Oldhammer keeps square bases, and essentially tries to do a "well in this reality the end times didn't happen and nothing blew up, keep playing as normal", how do they reclaim lost ground, especially if they are competing with themselves for people to play AoS? Do they make a new rule-set? Will it be as in-depth as it had been before? Because if it isn't a solid rule set intertwined with the lore, why would people buy this instead of playing 6th or 8th, 9th Age, or ditching it all together to play something a lot easier and more tactical in KoW? I get to keep the lore I want and use it wherever I want, which is why I am making a Stirland themed force for Kings of War. If Oldhammer sucks, is mainly just a money grab, doesn't come with decent rules, and will be possibly ditched if they find it isn't selling as well, or potentially threatening AoS, then why would I wish to spend money on this system?

This is less a "Hooray, GW is listening and giving us back our WHFB!" and more a "Let's squeeze the base for some nostalgia bucks and then move on" kind of marketing brain fart from GW.

The one thing I hope everyone understands, is this: whatever you may hope this is, the one thing it will NOT be is more affordable than what we already have. GW doesn’t care how small it’s niche is. The decision to have this out of specialist games tells me that TOW will be boutique and expensive as they can make it.

An apology is a bit much to hope for but I'd love it if GW acknowledged they mishandled the end of Fantasy or something similar. Getting rid of AOS is ridiculous though, why should people who like that suffer just because I dislike it?

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

At 15mm, all they'd be doing is further alienating the people who actually play Fantasy.

15 mm scale? Who had this stupid idea?! If they want to bring Fantasy back they need to do two things first:

1. Apologize to all WHFB players.
2. Trash AoS.

True. It should be 6mm to bring truly epic battles in fantasy in useful scale.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

At 15mm, all they'd be doing is further alienating the people who actually play Fantasy.

15 mm scale? Who had this stupid idea?! If they want to bring Fantasy back they need to do two things first:

1. Apologize to all WHFB players.
2. Trash AoS.

I assume thats just trolling for lolz...

But I will comment anyway as I think this sort of attitude creates needless tension. Trashing AOS would be just like trashing WHFB in the fist place. As a fan of WHFB which I assume you are, why would you wish that on anyone having it happen to you?

I dont hate AOS why would I waste energy on that? I just don't care about AOS.. Some people love it though so let them enjoy it.

But I would like WHFB/Old world reboot to be its own thing.

Given 30k/40k relationship its not unreasonable to expect some form of cross over e.g cataphractii terminators etc. from 30k making their way into 40k.

I am thinking that Index 40k is the thing for me.... too many books. Too many faqs ... i will buy into the new system and the indexes or legends or whatever. I pretty much stopped recommending the game tho. For obvious reasons. And i will feel the same about a WHFB legends ...

I mean I was salty...and to a degree I am still salty about WHFB being gone but the idea of trashing AoS is mindbogglingly stupid. AoS sells models, that was the whole point of it. WHFB was not moving product and now AoS is. I agree the launch of AoS was badly handled even if I did kinda like the idea of no points and just playing narrative scenarios.

Always gotta remember that the choice at the time for GW's finances was not AoS or WHFB. It was AoS or nothing.

I would be heavily against trashing AOS. And thats speaking as someone that can't stand any part of the game.

People love it. Don't take something away that people love.

Build a bridge and give the folks like me that prefer more depth and complexity and risk/reward their game back as well as keep AOS for what it provides for the people that love it.

 auticus wrote:
I would be heavily against trashing AOS. And thats speaking as someone that can't stand any part of the game.

People love it. Don't take something away that people love.

Build a bridge and give the folks like me that prefer more depth and complexity and risk/reward their game back as well as keep AOS for what it provides for the people that love it.

Indeed. The way forward to is for gamesworkshop to live up to its name, and to make and support as many living games as it can. There's no better send off to the kirby era that first entrenched itself in a two game system mentality, and then killed off old fantasy than both bringing back old fantasy, and supporting multiple games.

There was a time when Games Workshop was releasing new games all the time. The problem was exactly what people are describing with Warmaster. It didn't matter how great the game was, people didn't want to start another whole game system. So there weren't enough people buying the stuff to justify all the cost of creating an entirely new game and range of miniatures. And they couldn't afford to keep them around permanently. They're better off spending that effort to create a new faction in 40k or Age of Sigmar.

I was pissed when fantasy got the axe as that made up 90% of my collection and games.
Then we got the rules for AoS that were more akin to a joke than rules.

As it stands now though, I actually prefer it.
The rules were bloated to the point it was just becoming a joke as each new edition wiped them clean and changed a large chunk.
The balance was constantly skewed hugely (granted, AoS isn’t amazing for balance)

Also, I actually prefer the flexibility that modelling AoS stuff has.
Units and models can be far more dynamic and interesting now due to not having to rank up.
Before they had to be squished and static so that they’d fit together in a unit.

I also find it far easier to get a pickup game at clubs or my local GW as people seem more willing to play it.


While I’m still a diehard WHFB fan, it was dying and not gracefully.
It needed a good kick.
I don’t agree with the army squatting but sadly, that’s how GW chose to do it.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

 auticus wrote:
I would be heavily against trashing AOS. And thats speaking as someone that can't stand any part of the game.

People love it. Don't take something away that people love.

Build a bridge and give the folks like me that prefer more depth and complexity and risk/reward their game back as well as keep AOS for what it provides for the people that love it.

Indeed. The way forward to is for gamesworkshop to live up to its name, and to make and support as many living games as it can. There's no better send off to the kirby era that first entrenched itself in a two game system mentality, and then killed off old fantasy than both bringing back old fantasy, and supporting multiple games.

Problem is, I think its already past that point. GW can't (and doesn't) support all the games that are currently in the pool. Some get a trickle of support in fits and starts, others already seem forgotten, and even the main games are laboring under the production strain, to the point that we've had two years of filler books and not a lot of miniatures.

You are not going to get an apology from a corporation, Sorry, it just doesn't happen. Their stock is riding the gravy train, to them, everything is fine.

Much as I personally hate the Sgmarines, all they need to do is to put out the skirmish rules, once again, that they already had as a supplement in WD many moons ago.

I also play Fantasy, it hasn't gone anywhere. I don't need GW to repro the same figs that have set me right for many years, just so I can take it in the backhole on yet another game system that some chowderhead over there in their fake assed game design section can crap on and sell a metric gak ton of cards for.

Fantasy rules from ANY old game are perfectly fine to get other people in on, at and on a budget.

What really neds to happen is a new Dakka Section opened up for "OLDHAMMER". Where we can start discussing home brew rules, and conversions, and gather info from Warhammer fantasy that has been lost to the curse of being forgotten in the chase of gotta catch them all "New lickies and chewies".

There should be rules for a couple of Sigmarines and a regiment of lower armed figs to join together as a warband, and be used against a few animals, and or a lost and the damned hero with a butt load of cultists, and a couple of beastmen. (ALA Lost and the Damned, or Warhammer fantasy skirmish.)

Thinking of a skirmish level game on par with Mordhiem, where you add in a Necromancer and a couple of undead troops, and a giant bat, or a Wood elf troop, of rangers, or a Dwarf hold guard vs someone attacking them...

You want to know the biggest problem with AOS? No one plays it. They like the skirmish games, but with prices through the roof, numbers of shops have wall to wall GW, and no one buys until the 6 month sales to get rid of old product- to make room for even more expensive add ons.

Local? My closest shop got rid of the tables, and added in more card game playing space. You want people to buy- you have to make the game manageable and playable.

You want to know the biggest problem with AOS? No one plays it.

And that's why it's in 2nd place in that independend sales list that gets published every half a year.

 Argive wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

At 15mm, all they'd be doing is further alienating the people who actually play Fantasy.

15 mm scale? Who had this stupid idea?! If they want to bring Fantasy back they need to do two things first:

1. Apologize to all WHFB players.
2. Trash AoS.

I assume thats just trolling for lolz...

But I will comment anyway as I think this sort of attitude creates needless tension. Trashing AOS would be just like trashing WHFB in the fist place. As a fan of WHFB which I assume you are, why would you wish that on anyone having it happen to you?

I dont hate AOS why would I waste energy on that? I just don't care about AOS.. Some people love it though so let them enjoy it.

But I would like WHFB/Old world reboot to be its own thing.

Given 30k/40k relationship its not unreasonable to expect some form of cross over e.g cataphractii terminators etc. from 30k making their way into 40k.

I am dead serious. First you apologize and scrap this horrible setting from the face of the Earth and we can talk about this new 15 mm WHFB of yours

Who is going to buy it? Warmaster failed hard. And if you get to your senses and release the game in a sensible scale there is still one big obstacle which GW will never overcome:

A ruleset which is not written to insult my intelligence.

Are they able to do this? Nope, not in your wildest dreams. They chased away all competent games developers in the past by creating a toxic environment which ridiculed anyone who likes tabletop gaming. Only a masochist would stick around those morons or people who have not even an ounce of self-respect.

I get my WHFB enjoyment today by playing 9th Age. It's rules build upon WHFB and it abandoned a sales driven rule mindset, a feature which GW will never be able to implement.

When did GW even hint that the new game was 15mm? That's nothing more than gamers throwing around "I wish" ideas.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Argive wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
As per the above, at 16-20 models per unit, at 15mm scale, GW could sell actual, viable unit boxes at a price-point familiar to their customers.

At 15mm, all they'd be doing is further alienating the people who actually play Fantasy.

15 mm scale? Who had this stupid idea?! If they want to bring Fantasy back they need to do two things first:

1. Apologize to all WHFB players.
2. Trash AoS.

I assume thats just trolling for lolz...

But I will comment anyway as I think this sort of attitude creates needless tension. Trashing AOS would be just like trashing WHFB in the fist place. As a fan of WHFB which I assume you are, why would you wish that on anyone having it happen to you?

I dont hate AOS why would I waste energy on that? I just don't care about AOS.. Some people love it though so let them enjoy it.

But I would like WHFB/Old world reboot to be its own thing.

Given 30k/40k relationship its not unreasonable to expect some form of cross over e.g cataphractii terminators etc. from 30k making their way into 40k.

I am dead serious. First you apologize and scrap this horrible setting from the face of the Earth and we can talk about this new 15 mm WHFB of yours

Who is going to buy it? Warmaster failed hard. And if you get to your senses and release the game in a sensible scale there is still one big obstacle which GW will never overcome:

A ruleset which is not written to insult my intelligence.

Are they able to do this? Nope, not in your wildest dreams. They chased away all competent games developers in the past by creating a toxic environment which ridiculed anyone who likes tabletop gaming. Only a masochist would stick around those morons or people who have not even an ounce of self-respect.

I get my WHFB enjoyment today by playing 9th Age. It's rules build upon WHFB and it abandoned a sales driven rule mindset, a feature which GW will never be able to implement.

So you hate the company that badly that you comment on topics about its games.
Seems kind of tragic at best.

I love and enjoy the Old World

I have grown to love and enjoy the Mortal Realms

 Overread wrote:
When did GW even hint that the new game was 15mm? That's nothing more than gamers throwing around "I wish" ideas.

They didn't, and all the teaser images they've shown are the old 20mm or 25mm square bases.

Cronch wrote:

You want to know the biggest problem with AOS? No one plays it.

And that's why it's in 2nd place in that independend sales list that gets published every half a year.

What is your point?

Out of my whole post- that's the best you can come up with? I guess every conversation needs "THAT GUY".

Mortal Realms is cool as a mad heavy metal fever dream of blasted Frazetta landscapes fully of bloodthirsty barbarians and decadent sorcerors, with rare bastions of Order standing guarded by stern faced figures. It is more of a mood and a aesthetic than a place, to me.

The Old World is a tongue in cheek pastiche of the real world, but for all that it has a lot more depth and character, even if a lot of it is assumed familiarity.

For me the Old World is more attractive as it is, but if GW did more to develop the Mortal Realms into something a bit more distinct and detailed, I would really like it I think.

 Grot 6 wrote:

Cronch wrote:

You want to know the biggest problem with AOS? No one plays it.

And that's why it's in 2nd place in that independend sales list that gets published every half a year.

What is your point?

Out of my whole post- that's the best you can come up with? I guess every conversation needs "THAT GUY".

The point is your argument is flawed since you're asserting no one plays or buys AOS. Games Workshop made the right decision axing Fantasy since no one played/bought the models or rulesets. When the new games drops I will not lose hours of my life playing a horrible ruleset that is either hero hammer or cavhammer. I sincerely hope they don't devote too many resources to this new iteration.

 Da Boss wrote:
Mortal Realms is cool as a mad heavy metal fever dream of blasted Frazetta landscapes fully of bloodthirsty barbarians and decadent sorcerors, with rare bastions of Order standing guarded by stern faced figures. It is more of a mood and a aesthetic than a place, to me.

The Old World is a tongue in cheek pastiche of the real world, but for all that it has a lot more depth and character, even if a lot of it is assumed familiarity.

For me the Old World is more attractive as it is, but if GW did more to develop the Mortal Realms into something a bit more distinct and detailed, I would really like it I think.

I don't think they can unless they reboot the whole thing really..
Whenever I have tried to read some of the fluff pieces about AOS I just switch off... As soon as it gets into the realm of "planes" etc it just becomes tedious
The old world is a real place with physical limitations, its a vast planet. AOS isn't a real place... None of the places feel "real". It seems like they just happened in a "poof of magic" and they can "poof of magic" out of existance and it wouldn't matter. Not sure if that makes sense.

Perhaps I don't understand it.
I tried getting into it but it just does nothing for me and I cant get invested..

 Grot 6 wrote:

Cronch wrote:

You want to know the biggest problem with AOS? No one plays it.

And that's why it's in 2nd place in that independend sales list that gets published every half a year.

What is your point?

Out of my whole post- that's the best you can come up with? I guess every conversation needs "THAT GUY".

Everything else you said was a wishlist, this one statement was an objective falsehood, since it is 2nd best selling wargame in the US currently.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Cronch wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:

Cronch wrote:

You want to know the biggest problem with AOS? No one plays it.

And that's why it's in 2nd place in that independend sales list that gets published every half a year.

What is your point?

Out of my whole post- that's the best you can come up with? I guess every conversation needs "THAT GUY".

Everything else you said was a wishlist, this one statement was an objective falsehood, since it is 2nd best selling wargame in the US currently.

Perhaps I don't understand it.

I find reading the lore helps in understanding the lore

Removed - Rule #1 please and next time, kindly use spoiler tags when quoting a large slab of text.

 Da Boss wrote:
Mortal Realms is cool as a mad heavy metal fever dream of blasted Frazetta landscapes fully of bloodthirsty barbarians and decadent sorcerors, with rare bastions of Order standing guarded by stern faced figures. It is more of a mood and a aesthetic than a place, to me.

The Old World is a tongue in cheek pastiche of the real world, but for all that it has a lot more depth and character, even if a lot of it is assumed familiarity.

For me the Old World is more attractive as it is, but if GW did more to develop the Mortal Realms into something a bit more distinct and detailed, I would really like it I think.

The BL authors have been working really hard on making it more detailed and interesting place - David Guymer, Josh Reynolds, Andy Clark, Nick Horth and others have created some great characters stories and places

 Jjohnso11 wrote:

 Grot 6 wrote:

Cronch wrote:

You want to know the biggest problem with AOS? No one plays it.

And that's why it's in 2nd place in that independend sales list that gets published every half a year.

What is your point?

Out of my whole post- that's the best you can come up with? I guess every conversation needs "THAT GUY".

The point is your argument is flawed since you're asserting no one plays or buys AOS. Games Workshop made the right decision axing Fantasy since no one played/bought the models or rulesets. When the new games drops I will not lose hours of my life playing a horrible ruleset that is either hero hammer or cavhammer. I sincerely hope they don't devote too many resources to this new iteration.

Hopefully the underlined text shows the added 2 word problem here.