Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Is there any background overview book for AOS under $25? Something like the old Guide to the Old World or an RPG sourcebook?

Supposed to be a RPG soon, but yeah I would love some pure lore books......

also check out https://ageofsigmar.lexicanum.com/wiki/Main_Page and have a wonder about.....

 BertBert wrote:

 Orodhen wrote:


Even though GW has made some questionable decisions in the past, they're not stupid.

The buy-in cost for an entirely new scale would stifle the growth of a new game. Whereas many people already have WHFB stuff that they could use after purchasing some new books and maybe a few models.

It's much easier to get into a game when people around you are already capable of playing.

Fair enough, but a new Old World model range in the same scale is very likely to negatively impact AoS sales. There is also a recent precedent for a specialist game in a different scale in Adeptus Titanicus, so it's not as crazy an idea as you might think.

I assume AoS is here to stay and GW is planning to keep it as their main fantasy skirmisher, so I don't see where a new Old World product might fit in.

AoS is here to stay. It is growing in popularity in the tourney scene so it ain't going anytime soon unless GW drops the ball completely.

Regarding the fear of cannibalizing sales I would have agreed with you if GW didn't already have LotR which is technically another Fantasy Skirmisher in direct competition and has absolutely no crossover with existing GW products. However, WHOW(Warhammer Old World) still has a lot of models still in production on the Games Workshop website. Many of the factions still exist in one way or another in AoS and books like Cities of Sigmar has given many of the oldest models a new life.

I would even add that with the new "pointy" aelves release there is a chance they might bring reimagining/updates of old High Elf models that subsequently could be used in WHOW, but only time will tell.

The cannibalization will only happen if they don't allow for any type of crossplay as it would mean a person with a round base army would have to buy an entirely new - yet same - army on square bases just to play it and that would only be in the realms of the whales of whales. If they allow for crossplay then you'll see people going back and forth depending on what they want out of the system.

Here's my official 'return of WFB' prediction, based on long observation of GW.

They'll be releasing it in a scale and style completely incompatible with both older WFB models AND AoS models, and as many other miniature ranges as they can. 30 or 35mm, maybe. Or they might go with 18mm.

That way everyone 'has to' buy all new minis to play...

I think they must recognize that if they kept.with thier.current scale it potentially means sales due to people wanting to do cool.conversions

I don’t know why I keep coming back here, knowing there won’t be any new info. I can’t keep doing it for a couple of years ha ha.

Also I think it’d be WTOW (or WHTOW, though I never like the H getting a letter as it’s part of the first word..) if we are going to acronym

Can't help but feel like the sudden return to the old world is just GW realising after the success of the Total War games that there is still a market there to tap into.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Can't help but feel like the sudden return to the old world is just GW realising after the success of the Total War games that there is still a market there to tap into.

Yeah, I reckon that's true - that and they probably got a bunch of feedback in their last community survey. I put down "I want sisters back" in the survey before they brought those back, and I put down "I still want WFB" in the one preceding this announcement. If enough people did the same for WFB (and GW is on record saying how surprised they were by the number of people asking for sisters) that's a pretty legit data point, and the sales figures for the Old World IP videogames is another very legit data point for the execs at GW.

It's not a far stretch that someone at GW said "hmmm... there seems to be a whole bunch of people who want this product that we can make - do you think we can make money from that" and someone else replied "yes, I think so."

I mean, that's kind of how you're supposed to competently run a corporation.

It also implies that if you're passionate about GW products it's worth your while to respond to the survey when it comes out every year.

 NurglesR0T wrote:
Can't help but feel like the sudden return to the old world is just GW realising after the success of the Total War games that there is still a market there to tap into.

Well i did get some fine cast replaced.. I repeatedly asked for updating existing fine cast range to plastic or switching back to metals and some sort of a living ruleset...

"Living ruleset" is a pipe dream it seems until they can figure out a way to monetise it...
But I agree. If enough people ask for something to spend the shmeckles on, GW will deliver.

There is also one thing that might happen. WHOW might end up being their "Apocalypse" fantasy game. Larger scale battle system that could service both AoS and WHFB models.

It kinda makes some perverted sense as it means they can offer AoS for people playing 1000 or 2000 point skirmishes, and then provide WHOW for people who want massive epic fights with formations and whatnot. Hell, they'd probably write the rules depending on movement trays much like 40k Apocalypse is done.

Because one of the biggest hurdle for people wanting to get into WHFB at the time was the time and wallet consuming effort. However, if they make it so you can jump into WHFB after collecting AoS then the progression would be easier.

2000pts in AoS really doesn't count as "skirmish". A lot of armies can bring well over 100 models at that point.

Anyway, I seriously doubt there will be any overlap between the two Warhammers, just like in HH (which is ostensibly what inspired TOW) you can't just plop your tau down and go at the heresy-era mahreens.

It's not mass battle either. Then again as long as you are restricted to 30mm models you never have anything but skirmish of various sizes.

I think it's really pedantic to claim having hub-to-hub deployment across most of the board is "skirmish". Wargaming, barring maybe 3mm scale or bar-room brawls with 10 men per side, will never have 1:1 representation of any kind.

 Eldarsif wrote:
There is also one thing that might happen. WHOW might end up being their "Apocalypse" fantasy game. Larger scale battle system that could service both AoS and WHFB models.

They have stated on their facebook that there will not be any Stormcast present in the old world.

I don't understand why people seem to be bending over backwards to make this as convoluted as possible. It will be a Warhammer Fantasy Game set in the old world at 28mm/32mm scale. (Like the 8 editions previously)

Danny76 wrote:
I don’t know why I keep coming back here, knowing there won’t be any new info. I can’t keep doing it for a couple of years ha ha.

Also I think it’d be WTOW (or WHTOW, though I never like the H getting a letter as it’s part of the first word..) if we are going to acronym

Sounds better to be me. I prefer "Woe toe" to "Wow how" when saying it out.

 Eldarsif wrote:
There is also one thing that might happen. WHOW might end up being their "Apocalypse" fantasy game. Larger scale battle system that could service both AoS and WHFB models.

It kinda makes some perverted sense as it means they can offer AoS for people playing 1000 or 2000 point skirmishes, and then provide WHOW for people who want massive epic fights with formations and whatnot. Hell, they'd probably write the rules depending on movement trays much like 40k Apocalypse is done.

Because one of the biggest hurdle for people wanting to get into WHFB at the time was the time and wallet consuming effort. However, if they make it so you can jump into WHFB after collecting AoS then the progression would be easier.

They already had legacy lists for all the old armies, so why would they need a 3 year lead time to make some patchwork add on to AOS to have WTOW High Elves be able to face AOS Shark Aeaeaeaeaeaeaelves? It makes no sense. The hurdle to getting into WFB is that there's currently no WFB on the shelves. Right now we have AOS, which is basically WMH40K:TG and plays nothing like WFB. At all. Teasing the base along with the official release stating their intent to bring back gaming in the "Old World" doesn't lend itself to the AOS equivalent of "Quake skins DLC".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Hollow wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
There is also one thing that might happen. WHOW might end up being their "Apocalypse" fantasy game. Larger scale battle system that could service both AoS and WHFB models.

They have stated on their facebook that there will not be any Stormcast present in the old world.

I don't understand why people seem to be bending over backwards to make this as convoluted as possible. It will be a Warhammer Fantasy Game set in the old world at 28mm/32mm scale. (Like the 8 editions previously)

It's simple really. It's either people feel their game threatened by the existence of the other game, or they feel that their game is the only one that matters and is the super special bestest, so it obviously MUST just be their game so just give up a nd play their game in the first place.

The 32mm scale thing really annoys me because I detest scale creep. But if it means some of the older miniatures becoming available again, and the aesthetic choices of the Old World coming back, I will be happy enough. If they biggersize everything to 32mm I will be out. 28mm has been the scale standard for this sort of thing for years, and the slow creep upwards is more to do with a lack of discipline from model designers than any intrinsic benefit.

Personally I don't think TW WArhammeris the only metric GW is using. Remember loads of people love Dawn of War- only a small portion of that population will ever be customers who buy more than one box of token models to try it out.


I think GW is looking more at the wargame market itself - at games like 9th Age and such. I think they are doing what they did with Bloodbowl and realising that there is a profitable market there to tap into. Furthermore with the way GW hires more passionate staff its likely that there might well be a good core of Old World fans within GW's ranks who have also pushed for it to be added as a side project.

With staff who want to do it and with potential healthy profits on the table - plus if it all fails they can just roll the models into AoS anyway - its a very low risk situation for GW. Remembering that whilst AoS has loads of insane stuff going on; the vast majority of armies are pretty standard fare. Perhaps add a new beasty or construct or something and away you go.


If GW are smart and use round bases with movement trays then swapping between the two (as people do with Horus Heresy models) would be effortless.

 Vulcan wrote:
Here's my official 'return of WFB' prediction, based on long observation of GW.

They'll be releasing it in a scale and style completely incompatible with both older WFB models AND AoS models, and as many other miniature ranges as they can. 30 or 35mm, maybe. Or they might go with 18mm.

That way everyone 'has to' buy all new minis to play...

My crystal ball verified your prediction.

I still remember with horror when GW changed the format of the infantry stand in Space Marine aka Epic. Turned me right off the game and paved my plunge into 40K.

 Vulcan wrote:
Here's my official 'return of WFB' prediction, based on long observation of GW.

They'll be releasing it in a scale and style completely incompatible with both older WFB models AND AoS models, and as many other miniature ranges as they can. 30 or 35mm, maybe. Or they might go with 18mm.

That way everyone 'has to' buy all new minis to play...

This seems the most likely case to me as well. Don't cannibalize your main product line and "incentivize" us WHFB grogs to buy into new rules, miniatures and peripherals.

I dont predict the change of scale. Even GW isnt that stupid. The backlash would be... epic.

Minor games like Adeptus Titanicus is a different pair of shoes.

It's simple really. It's either people feel their game threatened by the existence of the other game

I have seen this several times as well. One of the driving points of why people play AOS and 40k is simply because it has a massive community.

If thats a primary motivator, the thought of losing players to your system to go do a different system easily generates resentment.

 Da Boss wrote:
The 32mm scale thing really annoys me because I detest scale creep. But if it means some of the older miniatures becoming available again, and the aesthetic choices of the Old World coming back, I will be happy enough. If they biggersize everything to 32mm I will be out. 28mm has been the scale standard for this sort of thing for years, and the slow creep upwards is more to do with a lack of discipline from model designers than any intrinsic benefit.

considering how everything GE makes is designed.on computer, and it would he very easy to press.a.button and rescale everything the scale creep is intentional, imo.

Cronch wrote:
2000pts in AoS really doesn't count as "skirmish". A lot of armies can bring well over 100 models at that point.

Anyway, I seriously doubt there will be any overlap between the two Warhammers, just like in HH (which is ostensibly what inspired TOW) you can't just plop your tau down and go at the heresy-era mahreens.

However, for the longest time you could play Horus Heresy in Warhammer 40k which did help Horus Heresy survive outside of its own environment.

Carlovonsexron: That is actually a very good point. It does seem that a lot of people like it, but I personally hate the scale creep.

 Hollow wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
There is also one thing that might happen. WHOW might end up being their "Apocalypse" fantasy game. Larger scale battle system that could service both AoS and WHFB models.

They have stated on their facebook that there will not be any Stormcast present in the old world.

I don't understand why people seem to be bending over backwards to make this as convoluted as possible. It will be a Warhammer Fantasy Game set in the old world at 28mm/32mm scale. (Like the 8 editions previously)

Not convoluted at all and nowhere am I saying that Stormcast will be in the Old World. The fact is that AoS has a huge range of miniatures that originated as WHFB models.

It's more like Chaos Daemons in 40k and AoS. You can buy it for your army in AoS, but many - not all - of those Daemons are cross-compatible into 40k which might entice you to collect some 40k along your AoS force so you can play both systems. This is like double-dipping dream for GW and if they intend to keep WHOW in the original scale then commercially it would be in their best interest to allow for the same crossplay experience.

Original point is that we already have a lot of WHFB models still being sold and made, but are being put onto round bases or have been rebased onto round bases. Therefore it would in GW's best financial interest to allow those round based and round rebased models to be used in WHOW somehow.

This of course only applies if they keep the same scale. If the scale is changed somehow then none of this matters.

It's simple really. It's either people feel their game threatened by the existence of the other game, or they feel that their game is the only one that matters and is the super special bestest, so it obviously MUST just be their game so just give up a nd play their game in the first place.

I want WHOW to succeed, but I won't re-rebase my models just so I can use them in WHOW and then lose out on those units in AoS. I have no interest in binary choice of either game; I want the option of playing both games without having to paint and collect the same army twice.

I always surmised that scale creep had to do with adding more details to a miniature. If a designer wanted to port certain details from the artist's rendering to the miniature but couldn't because the mold- they would make the model larger to make it possible?

Imagine if this is a way for GW to cash grab by releasing apocalypse for Fantasy and reinstating the restrictions on using lords only at 2000 pts and above and the troop tax with larger minimum sizes per block of troops.

Waitaminit, when did they officially change the rules about using squares in AOS? I thought you could use either/or. If that's the case, W:TOW on squares shouldn't matter in the slightest. If it DOES matter, don't third party manufacturers sell square to round converters?

 Just Tony wrote:
Waitaminit, when did they officially change the rules about using squares in AOS? I thought you could use either/or. If that's the case, W:TOW on squares shouldn't matter in the slightest. If it DOES matter, don't third party manufacturers sell square to round converters?

GW basically isn't making a competitive game so they go with the "what came in the box" argument along with the "what you want" one.

That said they do publish an official base size chart listing all the round base sizes for the game (after much gamer requesting).

Most competitive groups and events will require rounds since that's basically the system the game is designed around now.

At your local club level for casual games depends on your opponent. Some might care, some might not; some might care only if you've been playing with those square based grey models for years and really feels like you should put some more itme into the hobby etc....

AoS is also dependent on the bases to indicate whether one row or two rows can attack or not(melee weapons have rangues) as well as how auras work. In friendly games people will not harangue you about the bases, but in more competitive scenes correct bases will most likely be enforced.

It's why a lot of people have rebased their models. All my High and Dark Elf stuff has been rebased onto round bases.

Yeah in a fun game with friends I really don't care what base the model is on.

If you were playing competitive though..lets just say a 40 man unit of skeleton warriors with spears (Giving them a 2" reach) supported by a Vampire Lord...lets just say the small base size allows another rank of skeletons to attack. That usually means a STUPID number of extra attacks which would not be super fair.

Honestly i'm still leaning towards the first Old World Product being Mordheim. Cuz man I would give all of the money for Mordheim.