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I can't bear waiting for that.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It also ignores that the Temple Guard wearing ceremonial skulls and armor was the big difference between them and the standard Saurus

He doesn't ignore it, actually it is part of his point. Even for the elite guard of the most powerful sorcerers in the Old World, they differentiate themselves not by magical flaming weapons of ice and acid electricity, but simply by "mundane", low-fantasy stuff like skulls and gold.

 Argive wrote:

pm713 wrote:I'm very confused about how a female ice magic warrior is politically correct.

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Argive wrote:
"go go politicaly correct warrior ice chicks yeah!!!"

Says more about you than it says about the model.
Bis.

Because having 'ard looking Rus inspirered kossac blokes in furs would be "politcialy incorrect and racist" for today's times.
As if it should matter.... So here we are with ice wielding freezewitch subzero frosty frosts instead because design phiolosphy cant follow the OG source material. If you dont get it you dont get it...

Overreaction much?

This is only one new unit that Kislev gets and one that fits them quite well. Kislev is not only known for its Cossack-like warriors, but also for their Ice witches, something that has been a part of their lore since the RPG books. The land of Kislev itself is attuned to this form of Magic.

They also mention both Winged lancers and Ungols, so you've got your "Kossac blokes" covered. The flavour of the faction isn't going away just because they've added novice ice witches that use their magic on buffing their weapons. I'm expecting Bear Riders to come out of this faction.

Stop using "political correctness" as some sort of scapegoat to justify complaints and whining.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Kislev was always ruled by a Ice Queen though. So having a cadre of elite ice magic wielding warrior women makes sense thematically, a lot like how Alarielle had a cadre of magic bow wielding handmaidens under her command.

I think an elite cadre of female ice-mages would make thematic sense.

But female ice-mages who are also martial warriors and also the royal guard...?

I don't know, just seems a bit mixed up to me.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I may be in the minority here but I actually agree with Coenus Scaldingus.
One is just a different species, the other is obviously magical.

I mean, if Lizardmen were to be grounded in reality, they'd need 90% more feathers on most things. Our knowledge what dinosaurs looked like moved significantly since the 90s and sauruses are as outlandish as ice weapons.
Not to mention they're not actually aztec, their weapons look way too clunky to be macuahuitls, and skinks don't use atlatls, which is again, silly since they're supposed to be inspired by mesoamerica. Lizardmen are just ahistoric mess designed by AOS hacks, clearly.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It also ignores that the Temple Guard wearing ceremonial skulls and armor was the big difference between them and the standard Saurus

He doesn't ignore it, actually it is part of his point. Even for the elite guard of the most powerful sorcerers in the Old World, they differentiate themselves not by magical flaming weapons of ice and acid electricity, but simply by "mundane", low-fantasy stuff like skulls and gold.

...
Whether they're "the elite guard of the most powerful sorcerers in the Old World" or not--they differentiated themselves with ceremonial garb and weapons.

How hard is that to understand? The armor present is the whole difference between them and standard Saurus. The gold on them is ceremonial as well, showcasing their status.

And let's not forget as well that their weapons weren't "made from stone" anyways. Lizardmen had weapons that were effectively magical meteorite stone, not regular ol' rocks.

Much though I'm of the "Keep it very low fantasy" version of Warhammer, I quite like the look of Army of Elsas.

If they're one unit in isolation. Having the Ice Queen turn up at every skirmish is a nonsense (and why I never liked special characters) but her sending some of her elite troops to keep an eye on things? Sure, why not. But not every unit, please. Keep it guys in furry hats in the main.

And bring on the Bear Riders.

(It also occurs to me that in Frozen, magic IS hated and feared and weird. And the fact that it's really difficult to control is ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF THE PLOT. Frozen would fit just fine into Warhammer.)

(Yes, I know that the Ice Queen of Kislev comes from a lot further back than Disney's take on The Snow Queen)

 Graphite wrote:
Much though I'm of the "Keep it very low fantasy" version of Warhammer, I quite like the look of Army of Elsas.

If they're one unit in isolation. Having the Ice Queen turn up at every skirmish is a nonsense (and why I never liked special characters) but her sending some of her elite troops to keep an eye on things? Sure, why not. But not every unit, please. Keep it guys in furry hats in the main.

And bring on the Bear Riders.

(It also occurs to me that in Frozen, magic IS hated and feared and weird. And the fact that it's really difficult to control is ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF THE PLOT. Frozen would fit just fine into Warhammer.)

(Yes, I know that the Ice Queen of Kislev comes from a lot further back than Disney's take on The Snow Queen)

It also doesn't really fit Kislev in general given that the Ice Queens sisterhood is what overall effectively rules Kislev and keeps other cults and magics out.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Graphite wrote:
Much though I'm of the "Keep it very low fantasy" version of Warhammer, I quite like the look of Army of Elsas.

If they're one unit in isolation. Having the Ice Queen turn up at every skirmish is a nonsense (and why I never liked special characters) but her sending some of her elite troops to keep an eye on things? Sure, why not. But not every unit, please. Keep it guys in furry hats in the main.

And bring on the Bear Riders.

(It also occurs to me that in Frozen, magic IS hated and feared and weird. And the fact that it's really difficult to control is ONE OF THE MAIN POINTS OF THE PLOT. Frozen would fit just fine into Warhammer.)

(Yes, I know that the Ice Queen of Kislev comes from a lot further back than Disney's take on The Snow Queen)

It also doesn't really fit Kislev in general given that the Ice Queens sisterhood is what overall effectively rules Kislev and keeps other cults and magics out.

Depends on what period its set in as well - Kislev has changed over the centuries - it was even ruled by a Vampire for a few hundred years...

IIRC is about IC 2010 when Otillia III was the Empress in Talebheim, Ludwig was in Altdorf and Helmut in Marienburg so Kiselv has only been a entity for about 500 years so they might be a legacy of Khan Queen Miska or her daughter Shoika

If people react this heavily to something that’s actually fluffy and has previously been in their setting before, I want GW to go full on Disney.

I’d love to see a few ice golems to trigger people a bit more.



One thing I’ve never understood is peoples inability to show any reason towards others opinions.
Everyone has a different view on every army (good, bad or neutral)
Only on the internet do you see people bash others because they don’t like the same thing.
It’s almost as if some people don’t realise that everyone has their own opinions on design.

I also like how far some people are willing to go just to put someone down on liking an army that they don’t.
Makes it far easier to just find people of this nature and block them.

 vipoid wrote:
I think an elite cadre of female ice-mages would make thematic sense.

But female ice-mages who are also martial warriors and also the royal guard...?

I don't know, just seems a bit mixed up to me.

Same.
Ice witches as characters, and the faction spellcasters, would work perfect.

Cronch wrote:
I mean, if Lizardmen were to be grounded in reality, they'd need 90% more feathers on most things.

Let me google Skink on my favorite search engine.

Not seeing any feather on this lizard. Might be relevant when talking about most LIZARDmen .

Cronch wrote:
sauruses are as outlandish as ice weapons.

Let's agree to disagree on that then.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Whether they're "the elite guard of the most powerful sorcerers in the Old World" or not--they differentiated themselves with ceremonial garb and weapons.

Wait, are you arguing with the strange strawman that elite warriors shouldn't be differentiated by ceremonial garb and weapons?
Well, congrats on so easily defeating the strawman, but you can rest easy, nobody ever argued against that specific point. Some of us would just like said that such stuff would be better as just better crafted, more expensive and better quality than normal gear, rather than super-duper mega-flashy magical stuff.

 posermcbogus wrote:
Those older models compaired to these newer sketches really feel starkly different, beyond the magic, the weapons are all elaborate and overwrought, unlike the simple functionalism of the older sculpts. The clothes, the sidelocks, straps and jewels all feel too ornate. They'd suit poncy elves, but Kislev? Those weird steppe russain/mongol/polish hussars? It's out of character

Yup, real life hussars were all about functionalism, no rich clothes here, no straps or dangles, no detail, nothing elaborate or overwrought, no nothing

pm713 wrote:
I'm very confused about how a female ice magic warrior is politically correct.

Didn't you get the memo? Any woman out of kitchen is somehow PC/SJW/[insert another inane strawman ABC here]. Female models? Haram. Female players? Double HARAM

Never mind both Kislev and real life Eastern Europe differed from Western Europe/Western Old World in being pretty egalitarian, anything but 'burly male cossacks' (which by the way shows hilarious ignorance about Eastern European civilizations, not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so) would lead to some bravely charging straw windmills, with no regard to historical accuracy or nuance. The facts don't fit one's imagination and prejudices? Then they must be SJW fabrication or something then

Skink lizard is clearly not the same a the lizardmen skink, which seems to be based on a dinosaur body plan, as evident by the veritcal, not splayed wide position of legs. Since WFB is so firmly grounded in our world, just with magic, we must assume that's the case, as no lizards ever had that kind of hips (though some crocodilions did if i recall)

Doesn't really matter, lol.

If it has things like Lizardmen or Elves going to war, no matter how non-magical or mundane, it's not even remotely low fantasy by any standard.

 Irbis wrote:

 posermcbogus wrote:
Those older models compaired to these newer sketches really feel starkly different, beyond the magic, the weapons are all elaborate and overwrought, unlike the simple functionalism of the older sculpts. The clothes, the sidelocks, straps and jewels all feel too ornate. They'd suit poncy elves, but Kislev? Those weird steppe russain/mongol/polish hussars? It's out of character

Yup, real life hussars were all about functionalism, no rich clothes here, no straps or dangles, no detail, nothing elaborate or overwrought, no nothing

pm713 wrote:
I'm very confused about how a female ice magic warrior is politically correct.

Didn't you get the memo? Any woman out of kitchen is somehow PC/SJW/[insert another inane strawman ABC here]. Female models? Haram. Female players? Double HARAM

Never mind both Kislev and real life Eastern Europe differed from Western Europe/Western Old World in being pretty egalitarian, anything but 'burly male cossacks' (which by the way shows hilarious ignorance about Eastern European civilizations, not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so) would lead to some bravely charging straw windmills, with no regard to historical accuracy or nuance. The facts don't fit one's imagination and prejudices? Then they must be SJW fabrication or something then

The 16th century hussars and burly cossac was a theme GW went with for kislev originaly... So I guess they were pretty ignorant about eastern european civilization according to you. And now this explains exactly why the change in design approach to PC this.

Please dont try to lecture me about where I was born and raised in.
I must have missed all the history lessons where woman were out in the front liines of the turk invasions and the sicz zapororwska uprising...

Also kislev was not ruled by the "ice queen" like its some sort of AOS timeless realm....
It was ruled by a Ice queen for a time. Her father tamed/beat a fethin bear and rode it into tow for god sake and thats how their family became recognised and came to rule as far as I remember.. After his death she picke dup the mantle coz she a bad ass too.

To clarify: I have no issue about the ice witches being chicks or dudes.. I have an issue with this clear shift into generic "ice magic warriors" rather than stick to the roots of Rus/Cossac inspired kislev being the main driving asthetic.
Because its ice magic warriors today. and Magic carpet riding ice djns tomorrow and so on.

All of their weapons and equipment is clearly inspired by central asian people, which were also either part of Rus or bordered them (like the Crimean Khanate). The only "non historical" stylings are the ice bits on the weapons. Which is in line with Steam Tanks, Bear-riding and barbarians being able to field larger armies than civilized kingdoms.

I don't quite get the complaints about the new unit. I don't too much about Kislev, but looking at the wiki, these don't seem to have any significant problems lore-wise?

Ice Magic, and Ice Witches, seem to be quite a big part of Kislev culture. They go around testing for any sign of Ice Magic Ability as part of their Equinox Festival. Girls who show some signs of being able to use Ice Magic are then taken to be trained and become apprentice Witches - but only the girls, as male magic users aren't allowed in Kislev Culture due to superstition. So thematically there isn't a really a problem with a unit of female Ice Magic users. It doesn't seem out of place for them to be royal guard/as part of the Ice Court either, as being involved in the political side of things is something they also do to a significant extent.

As for their weapons being wrapped in magical ice, Ice Magic already allows the creation of weapons like that - there's a "Frost Blade" that manifests a blade of ice, and also a "sword of ice" spell which is similar. An elite guard consisting of ice magic users who are able to enchant their weapons with seems seems fine considering those.

I really don't see how this unit supposedly doesn't fit Kislev?

Honestly guys just wait until we see whats coming out of Total War: Warhammer 3.

It would not surprise me if units that are being worked on right now are partially based on whats coming with Kislev in that game.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It doesn't seem out of place for them to be royal guard/as part of the Ice Court either, as being involved in the political side of things is something they also do to a significant extent.

You do understand that those are totally different things, right?

This would be the medieval equivalent of having the British PM guarded by an elite team of MPs.

 vipoid wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It doesn't seem out of place for them to be royal guard/as part of the Ice Court either, as being involved in the political side of things is something they also do to a significant extent.

You do understand that those are totally different things, right?

This would be the medieval equivalent of having the British PM guarded by an elite team of MPs.

But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat and from there it's a short step to royal guard especially if women have special status.

 vipoid wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
It doesn't seem out of place for them to be royal guard/as part of the Ice Court either, as being involved in the political side of things is something they also do to a significant extent.

You do understand that those are totally different things, right?

This would be the medieval equivalent of having the British PM guarded by an elite team of MPs.

It isn't like that, really. The political and military side of things are not entirely separate for the Ice Witches, they use their powers to defend Kislev and are a sisterhood who guides and manipulates aspects of Kislev culture.

A culture where ice magic is of great importance using mages who are trained to fight, and who also have an interest in what's going on, as royal guard/part of the Ice Court does not seem that odd to me.

pm713 wrote:

But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat

So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.

Hence, I think it's fair to assume that their magic training (or whatever) generally precludes them from also learning any significant combat ability.

pm713 wrote:
and from there it's a short step to royal guard especially if women have special status.

But . . . why?

Surely if these ice-witches have significant power and status, then it should be the other way around - they should be the ones being guarded, not acting as guards for others. Even moreso on the battlefield where, unless the Ice Queen is attending in person, they are likely to be the most important people on the battlefield.

 vipoid wrote:

pm713 wrote:

But it does make sense that you'd train your mages to fight well in combat

So then why aren't other mages trained well in combat? Other human mages certainly aren't. Elven mages (including dark elf sorceresses) aren't either. Granted, it's been a while since I played WHFB but unless I'm misremembering there were almost no mages with good combat ability.

Hence, I think it's fair to assume that their magic training (or whatever) generally precludes them from also learning any significant combat ability.

pm713 wrote:
and from there it's a short step to royal guard especially if women have special status.

But . . . why?

Surely if these ice-witches have significant power and status, then it should be the other way around - they should be the ones being guarded, not acting as guards for others. Even moreso on the battlefield where, unless the Ice Queen is attending in person, they are likely to be the most important people on the battlefield.

Culture? Just because mages aren't trained in combat in one place, doesn't mean they're not in another. Especially in somewhere like Kislev, which is right on the wastes doorstep. Stop trying to shoehorn everything into the same box.

Cronch wrote:
Skink lizard is clearly not the same a the lizardmen skink, which seems to be based on a dinosaur body plan, as evident by the veritcal, not splayed wide position of legs.

Did you somehow miss the "man" part of lizardman?
If the skinks were based on dinosaurs they would have feathers, checkmate atheist!

 Irbis wrote:
not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so

Well Bretonia is anachronistic to the Empire by a few hundred years, so...

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I really don't see how this unit supposedly doesn't fit Kislev?

Not about Kislev, it's about the general WFB mood.
Previously there were like 3 or 4 whole units with magic weapons, and those just looked like a slightly more ornate weapons. Similarly, there were very very few units of magic users.
Even simply having characters that were magic users and good fighters used to be very rare, like I know it was the case for vampires but beside that I can't think of any other such character.
Here we have a whole unit of magic user good fighters with magic weapons that looks very flashy magical instead of just more ornate weapons.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

Culture? Just because mages aren't trained in combat in one place, doesn't mean they're not in another.

Nope, you're right. Clearly everyone else in the Old World is just brain-dead and can't see the advantage in giving their mages martial training. Nor it seems do mages ever take the initiative to get such training themselves, even the ones living in the most backstab-happy cultures in existence.

Thank goodness for Kislev - the only place where people have actual, functioning brains.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Cronch wrote:
Skink lizard is clearly not the same a the lizardmen skink, which seems to be based on a dinosaur body plan, as evident by the veritcal, not splayed wide position of legs.

Did you somehow miss the "man" part of lizardman?
If the skinks were based on dinosaurs they would have feathers, checkmate atheist!

 Irbis wrote:
not to mention being completely anachronistic for supposed Old World era by only oh, a few hundred years or so

Well Bretonia is anachronistic to the Empire by a few hundred years, so...

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I really don't see how this unit supposedly doesn't fit Kislev?

Not about Kislev, it's about the general WFB mood.
Previously there were like 3 or 4 whole units with magic weapons, and those just looked like a slightly more ornate weapons. Similarly, there were very very few units of magic users.
Even simply having characters that were magic users and good fighters used to be very rare, like I know it was the case for vampires but beside that I can't think of any other such character.
Here we have a whole unit of magic user good fighters with magic weapons that looks very flashy magical instead of just more ornate weapons.

One must also remember that GW's ability to produce things was a factor. Flashy things and fancier things were difficult to produce.. So they for the most part didn't for most of the lifecycle of the old world, despite there being lore things justifying them. They were also trying to hit into historicals as well when they were popular.

Also Ogre Kingdoms counted as having good magical power mages. Butchers wanted more things for the pot!

 vipoid wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

Culture? Just because mages aren't trained in combat in one place, doesn't mean they're not in another.

Nope, you're right. Clearly everyone else in the Old World is just brain-dead and can't see the advantage in giving their mages martial training. Nor it seems do mages ever take the initiative to get such training themselves, even the ones living in the most backstab-happy cultures in existence.

Thank goodness for Kislev - the only place where people have actual, functioning brains.

Welcome to humanity, where everyone thinks doing things their way is the correct way and turn their noses up at anyone else's ideas. Enjoy your stay.

 vipoid wrote:

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:

Culture? Just because mages aren't trained in combat in one place, doesn't mean they're not in another.

Nope, you're right. Clearly everyone else in the Old World is just brain-dead and can't see the advantage in giving their mages martial training. Nor it seems do mages ever take the initiative to get such training themselves, even the ones living in the most backstab-happy cultures in existence.

Thank goodness for Kislev - the only place where people have actual, functioning brains.

What are Chaos Sorcerers, what are Bright Wizards, how about Vampires?

Seems like it would be a hybrid unit that is decent in combat and magic, and use that flexibility to take on opponents, while in a straight up combat or magic duel they would be out classes by specialist fighters or dedicated mages.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
One must also remember that GW's ability to produce things was a factor. Flashy things and fancier things were difficult to produce.. So they for the most part didn't for most of the lifecycle of the old world, despite there being lore things justifying them.

Oh there might have been practical reasons for it, but it doesn't change that this is how I remembered the old world, and how I would like the reboot to be. Not like AoS.