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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
And ASOIAF models are 32mm with more realistic proportions compared to GW's 32mm heroic as feth scale. Look how much space they need on the trays.

5th edition Bretonnians were more realistically scaled and ranked up in nice tight formations.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, GW models keep getting bigger, the weapons alone are massive on new models and most of them are 32mm heroic scale.

Anyone wanting their AOS models to work in TOW is basically asking for the removal of tight formations.

If someone wants to chop up their giant dancing models to fit in formation that's fine, but it's no longer WHFB if GW goes the ASOIAF route with the bases. It would affect the rules, unit size and aesthetics. Song minis take up less space than current GW models too.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
And ASOIAF models are 32mm with more realistic proportions compared to GW's 32mm heroic as feth scale. Look how much space they need on the trays.

GW's models being hero scale doesn't have much effect on how much space they need. 5th edition Bretonnians were more realistically scaled and ranked up in nice tight formations.

Eh, their horses were way undersized. I love my Brets, but the 5 edition knights look like they are riding ponies rather than large destriers.

actually, the old horses are in the right scale, it was the light cavalry that came later which was too big

Goose LeChance wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Goose LeChance wrote:
And ASOIAF models are 32mm with more realistic proportions compared to GW's 32mm heroic as feth scale. Look how much space they need on the trays.

5th edition Bretonnians were more realistically scaled and ranked up in nice tight formations.

Yeah that's what I'm saying, GW models keep getting bigger, the weapons alone are massive on new models and most of them are 32mm heroic scale.

Anyone wanting their AOS models to work in TOW is basically asking for the removal of tight formations.

If someone wants to chop up their giant dancing models to fit in formation that's fine, but it's no longer WHFB if GW goes the ASOIAF route with the bases. It would affect the rules, unit size and aesthetics. Song minis take up less space than current GW models too.

You do realize that there's plenty of current AoS models that are nothing more than the old WHFB kits now packed with new round bases, don't you?
If those models worked ranked up in WHFB 8e, they'll work ranked up again..... (some people might want/need to rebase some stuff)

Hell, 90% of my Sigmar armies are just my old WHFB stuff. Most still on their square bases. And the stuff that's new to Sigmar - my Idoneth & Kharadan & Stormcast & such? I don't expect them to be part of this new game.
I suspect that I'll be fine.

Hm, what are the kits that have been released for AoS covering units also in WHFB? Chaos Warriors come to mind as having ranking troubles, but then the Chosen and Ogroids look like they'd rank up fine.

The new Chosen might rank up but I'm extremely sceptical about them fitting a 25mm base. Similarly, while it might be possible to rank the new Chaos Warriors, I don't think it's something you can expect a newbie to do.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hm, what are the kits that have been released for AoS covering units also in WHFB?

There's not that much I guess (chiefly because a lot of factions get only 1 new model per edition) but there's also no reason to assume units introduced in AoS wouldn't be ported back into their corresponding TOW faction.

Gloomspite Gitz and all sorts of Daemons come to mind that were done in AoS times -both resculpts and new units - and would for sure be retrofitted into TOW.

Now that we're considering it... there's some significant base size increases in the monster department. Nobody surely thinks they're going to stick greater demons back on a 50x50?

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hm, what are the kits that have been released for AoS covering units also in WHFB? Chaos Warriors come to mind as having ranking troubles, but then the Chosen and Ogroids look like they'd rank up fine.

There's entire armies that other than 1-3 kits & different bases are still the same models they were selling at the close of WHFB.
For my Cities? The only new kit showing on GWs site is the Galen/Dorelia Ven Denst witchhunters. Every other kit is a veteran of 1+ editions of WHFB.
Seraphon? Only the new version of Kroak, Starblood Stalkers, & a terrain piece are AoS new.
Skaven? Beasts of Chaos? Gloomspite? Etc? Same story. A few new pieces, otherwise same old army now on round bases....

Seriously, scroll through GWs site & make a list

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hm, what are the kits that have been released for AoS covering units also in WHFB?

There's not that much I guess (chiefly because a lot of factions get only 1 new model per edition) but there's also no reason to assume units introduced in AoS wouldn't be ported back into their corresponding TOW faction.

Gloomspite Gitz and all sorts of Daemons come to mind that were done in AoS times -both resculpts and new units - and would for sure be retrofitted into TOW.

Now that we're considering it... there's some significant base size increases in the monster department. Nobody surely thinks they're going to stick greater demons back on a 50x50?

Thirsters had already gone to the 100×150 so I don't see any reason the other greater daemons wouldn't be upsized.

As for new units, it's the fluff. Many simply did not exist in the Old World (or did not exist until End Times), and shoehorning them in would no doubt provoke a... negative response. Others did exist in fluff only (Tzaangors) or could be reasonably included by extrapolation (Tzaangor Shaman) without issue. Hard to say what they'll do.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hm, what are the kits that have been released for AoS covering units also in WHFB? Chaos Warriors come to mind as having ranking troubles, but then the Chosen and Ogroids look like they'd rank up fine.

From the top of my head:

Orcs and Goblins
Squig Herd
Squig Hoppers
Stone Trolls
Goblin Wolf Riders (soon)

Warriors of Chaos
Chaos Warriors
Chaos Knights
Chaos Chosen

Daemons of Chaos
Great Unclean One
Beast of Nurgle
Lord of Change
Flesh Hounds of Khorne
Keeper of Secrets
Fiends of Slaanesh

Vampire Counts
Skeleton Warriors
Zombies
Dire Wolves
Fell Bats
Blood Knights
Black Coach

Lizardmen
Lord Kroak

I didn't include any small individual characters such as Skaven Warlock Bombardier, Master Assassin, Vampires on foot etc. because they are not really relevant in this context.

Thanks!

ccs wrote:

You do realize that there's plenty of current AoS models that are nothing more than the old WHFB kits now packed with new round bases, don't you?
If those models worked ranked up in WHFB 8e, they'll work ranked up again..... (some people might want/need to rebase some stuff)

Of course the old models that were taken from WHFB will still rank up on square bases.

New stuff made for AOS? not so much...

Goose LeChance wrote:

ccs wrote:

You do realize that there's plenty of current AoS models that are nothing more than the old WHFB kits now packed with new round bases, don't you?
If those models worked ranked up in WHFB 8e, they'll work ranked up again..... (some people might want/need to rebase some stuff)

Of course the old models that were taken from WHFB will still rank up on square bases.

New stuff made for AOS? not so much...

Nothing you can't fix, actually. Just a question of putting the right miniatures at the right places. And using a good knife to cut and glue parts that are too much in the way of others.

It didn't take me long to do that, in the end :



It's pretty much doable with any other AoS miniature, TBH. Also depends which game you intend to play with them. Not all square base and movement trays are equal sizes, after all.

I've had to cut off the arms of whats-it-called warcry chaos barbarian warband that used bone/stone weapons because some of their duel weapon minis are too wide. Chaos Warriors so far seems to fit well and looked well enough with the older WHFB CW minis.

I feel like if you're having to cut off arms/weapons, that's a pretty solid indicator that the models do (/did) not, in fact, rank up...

I'm pretty interested in how they're going to treat Empire. Guns were always worded to be a fairly recent addition to the Empires arsenal, at least the pistols and flintlock muskets they're modelled with.

I wonder if GW will revert them to basic matchlocks or remove handheld guns entirely?

I’m pretty sure they had blackpowder weapons then, in previous canon, but in terms of gameplay? They might end up being one-shot but high strength as older guns tended to go for larger bores and powder charges to make up for unreliability by increasing impact.

Historically the biggest deal with powder weapons was getting consistent powder; obviously the dwarves have this licked but they (naturally) charge serious money for it, if it’s available at all, so that stuff is unlikely to make it into peasant militia rifles when there are cannon to feed. So the rifles get whatever the local alchemist has come up with this week, based on what supplies he could get in last week.

 Mr_Rose wrote:
I’m pretty sure they had blackpowder weapons then, in previous canon, but in terms of gameplay? They might end up being one-shot but high strength as older guns tended to go for larger bores and powder charges to make up for unreliability by increasing impact.

Historically the biggest deal with powder weapons was getting consistent powder; obviously the dwarves have this licked but they (naturally) charge serious money for it, if it’s available at all, so that stuff is unlikely to make it into peasant militia rifles when there are cannon to feed. So the rifles get whatever the local alchemist has come up with this week, based on what supplies he could get in last week.

It's actually pretty recent as the date set in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 1st & 2nd edition was 1991 IC, that's when the Imperial Gunnery School was built in Nuln and cannons started to get used. Dwarfs Guns & Steel had it that the dwarf high king gave consent for the expatriat dwarfs to help the elector count build it, and 2nd edition Companion book basically just said it drained the province's coffers for a decade before they saw return to the investment. (1E page 40 & 109, 2E page 99). Also 4th edition roleplay also added in 2000 IC the von Tassenick count of Nordland refused to the new-fangled guns to his state troops. Incidentally it does make guns available to empire mercenaries in Mordheim since that's 2000 IC.

That puts the guns of the empire to near the end of the Time of Chaos - Age of Three Emperors - Great War Against Chaos (1359 - 1547, 1547 - 2304 IC).

 Lord Damocles wrote:
I feel like if you're having to cut off arms/weapons, that's a pretty solid indicator that the models do (/did) not, in fact, rank up...

Yeah, recently assembled some vulkites and no way they would rank up decently. Nor look any good* if they did. Some though, like Hearthguard, I believe they were originally designed and planned for an End Times release then pushed back.

*Not that their poses look good anyways.

Jarms48 wrote:
I'm pretty interested in how they're going to treat Empire. Guns were always worded to be a fairly recent addition to the Empires arsenal, at least the pistols and flintlock muskets they're modelled with.

I wonder if GW will revert them to basic matchlocks or remove handheld guns entirely?

Blackpowder in general should be around; setting looks to be around 200 (ish) years or so after Mordheim and they had flintlocks then.

Guns predated the steam tank right? And wasn’t the inventor of that around 2000.
So I guess they’d had at least 500 years of time up to End Times/original setting.

Jarms48 wrote:
I'm pretty interested in how they're going to treat Empire. Guns were always worded to be a fairly recent addition to the Empires arsenal, at least the pistols and flintlock muskets they're modelled with.

I wonder if GW will revert them to basic matchlocks or remove handheld guns entirely?

Personally I am expecting a retcon so the Empire can use all their old miniatures in the new setting.

Grail Seeker wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
I'm pretty interested in how they're going to treat Empire. Guns were always worded to be a fairly recent addition to the Empires arsenal, at least the pistols and flintlock muskets they're modelled with.

I wonder if GW will revert them to basic matchlocks or remove handheld guns entirely?

Personally I am expecting a retcon so the Empire can use all their old miniatures in the new setting.

Maybe. On the one hand that would be the thing to help entice old players into it, on the other hand when does GW not take the opportunity to shoot itself in the foot for the sake of "new shiny"

Danny76 wrote:
Guns predated the steam tank right? And wasn’t the inventor of that around 2000.
So I guess they’d had at least 500 years of time up to End Times/original setting.

yeah, Steam Tank was around the 2000, yet we still have matchlock as standard state troop weapon in 2500, with wheelock for elites/heroes and dwarfs use flintlock

there did not happen a lot regarding weapon development in 500 years where in real live it took ~150 years from the matchlock to the flintlock,

The Empire is one of the later users of gunpowder, the Dwarfs have known about it for millienia but it took a long time to sanction it for use in warfare.

Cathay had gunpowder weapons 2000 years before Sigmar as they sold them to Lahmia at that time to fight Nagash and they proved very effective.

A primitive canon was used in the battle against Nagash led by Sigmar, blasting Krell.

Handguns are much later but I don't think we have a definative date - but firearms are a option in the Mordheim game set in 2010.

 kodos wrote:

Danny76 wrote:
Guns predated the steam tank right? And wasn’t the inventor of that around 2000.
So I guess they’d had at least 500 years of time up to End Times/original setting.

yeah, Steam Tank was around the 2000, yet we still have matchlock as standard state troop weapon in 2500, with wheelock for elites/heroes and dwarfs use flintlock

there did not happen a lot regarding weapon development in 500 years where in real live it took ~150 years from the matchlock to the flintlock,

Fantasy in general, as a genre, has a piss poor conception of timescales.

Of course, one could also say that just because a technology can advance doesn't mean it will. The Chinese discovered gunpowder in the 9th or 10th century, but they were never as fast to develop it as the Europeans and Muslims who acquired it a few hundred years later. Outside of artillery and rocketry, Chinese firearms developed into rudimentary hand cannons and then didn't change much for 500 years. The Europeans and Ottomans meanwhile took the weapons and went hogwild developing them.

Technology is also not a linear thing. There are many inventions that are discovered and then lost. Even in today's world with the internet and the super easy and free exchange of knowledge there are still things that get developed, discovered and then lost.

There's also a load of other things that can happen. For example look at 3D printing. It's been around since the 80s and yet its not until the last few years that its really taken off in a big way. Not through any technological discovery, but because the firm holding the patents had them expire and could no longer restrict access and charge a fortune for the licence.

Many firms might buy up tech like that and sit on it. Perhaps just to prevent the competition using it; perhaps because they intend to use it and then never get the money together. Perhaps the market just never moves the right way etc...


Look at how the development of antibiotics shut down research in alternatives because we had a solution that worked. Now we are having to go back to older research and less funding research and look at countries that were locked out of some antibiotics for alternatives, some of which are way behind where they could have been had they had proper investment.



There are so many many things that can change stuff up and cause technology to stagnate, go backwards or for major revelations to go undiscovered for generations when they are so simple.

Also, wizards.

Fantasy as a Genre is usually good at time scale and some are very good

the problem with Warhammer is that the nations are real live copies frozen in time

Estelia, Tilea, Bretonnia, the Empire and Kislev are different parts of Europe at a specific time so there cannot be a big development over 2000 years because than they would lose their unique setting

Yet some interesting real life development, Rifles were manufactured for several hundred years, but not adapted to military service at a larger scale until the Minie/Lorenz bullet was developed that allowed for the same rate of fire with rifled muskets as with smoothbore ones

Yet something like the Flintlock replaced the Matchlock very quick for obvious reasons (saver and more reliable) while the wheelock was kept for longer but not on standard military weapons as it was more expensive to make

In addition early gunpowder weapon developments were driven by siege artillery and less by infantry weapons in Europe but light anti infantry cannons and grenades in China

From Warhammer models, we "know" that Dwarfs have breach loading rifled cannons, and flintlock or percussion lock guns which most likely are rifles (no sign of breach loading so a Minie style bullet) and this is most likely their secret technology which they don't share

Yet Dwarfs sell weapons and the progressive weapon smiths who have troubles with the conservative ones, live and work in the Empire, so that over a period of 500+ years, the unreliable, and unsave matchlock was not replaced by a flintlock although there are people who know how to make it is not really believable

Dwarves are hyper protective over their technology. There is every chance that if you were found to be trading advanced weapons to another race you'd likely be imprisoned in some dwarfish fashion.

They would then set too in tracking down and recovering any of the sold items and ensuring others didn't recreate it.


Which is another aspect to consider, its one thing to buy and use a weapon but its another to make them. Native Americans, from my limited understanding, would trade for guns, but lacked the proper infrastructure and in-community knowledge to replicate the technology. Plus it was likely easier to just trade for more.

Heck consider how many things in your very house you use every single day but you could never re-create them. You might understand the theory of how they work and even are made ,but actually making them is vastly different.


So there might well be limited on what even the progressive dwarves are allowed and tolerated to trade with other races.


Plus don't forget 500 years to humans isn't the same as it is to dwarves. 500 years is many generations of men, but that might just be 1 single dwarf generation (I forget how old their upper limit is but its certainly into the 100s of years).



Warhammer, like many wargames, does have an element of frozen in time going on. Heck most wargames are like that, even those based on real world situations are often frozen on very specific time periods. Fantasy and sci-fi games do tend to lean into the greater extremes on this though. They do rely heavily on a lot of circumstances holding many things in limbo. Just look how the 40K setting bends over backwards to maintain its limbo status for 10-000 years