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A bit of a fun experimental list, making use of a deathstar of serpents surrounding asurman waiting to get popped to lose an avenger or two to pop the exarch power for +1 to hit and wound.
The custom traits allow the avengers to make marines make 4+ saves even in cover.
Asurman makes the avengers tougher to take out and gives a bit of counter charge.
The psykers do what they do, making all that shuriken fire more efficient.
I think relying on Avenging Strikes is not a very good idea. The chances you only lose one or two Dire Avengers is very low, the chances you lose most if it not all are more likely so you have a very under strength unit benefiting from the power. A better power might be Bladestorm as losing the 4++ Exarch power is fine in this case with Asurmen buff.
~500pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme
~7500pts Asuryani assembled some with old colour scheme
Korlandril wrote: Yeah I understand. I would prefer a short write up or even bullet points for each unit then?
If you're going to do this, you should make the focus be competitively minded. It is a tactics thread after all.
I think it’s good to have input on the competitive scene, but it’s also good to take a more general look at units when doing reviews. Competitive play tends more towards binary calls. A unit is either hot or not. And some things like ITC rules and missions can VASTY change which one it is. There is also the meta issue; what you expect to face at a tournament is not necessarily the same thing you will find down at your FLGS.
So someone who’s just getting into the game and is looking for advice on how to put the units together from their Start Collecting box to play at the shop might need a different answer than someone doing tournament prep. A well-rounded review will also stand up better over time. If you write a competitive review when the meta is knight lists screened with guardsmen, you might have different view on units then when Iron Hand marine lists are taking top tables (Just random examples, replace with what the FotM is).
Lots of people play this game in lots of different ways. While those who take the time to come here and read tactics tend to be those who are looking to up their game, some are just looking to get started.
Dire Avengers A cheap Troop choice when taken as a 5-man squad while still with some good capability. 5+ overwatch, 4+ save. Always take an Exarch for a free extra wound.
Exarch Powers:
Tier 1:
Battle Fortune: Good power for tanking AP shots on the Exarch, makes the squad overall tougher overall
Bladestorm: As it benefits the whole squad the strongest offensive power available
Shredding Fire: Most ideal for MSU Dire Avengers with Exarch with dual ASC
Tier 2:
Defend: Only benefits the unit when being attacked in melee
Avenging Strikes: Though the benefits are very nice for this power they only turn on after losing at least one model
Martial Adapt: Nice benefits for the Exarch but outshone by other powers
Tier 3:
Stand Firm: OK power but not as good as others listed
~500pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme
~7500pts Asuryani assembled some with old colour scheme
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm personally not a huge fan of tier systems, with Eldar even more so, as so much depends on psychic phase and synergies and there's a lot of divergent opinions. I personally for example rate the guardian bomb really highly, others can't make it work. Is it tier 1 or garbage? I'll have a write down tomorrow afternoon on the units i feel comfortable rating, can't be bothered to do that on a phone though
Autarch Warlock Guardians/Rangers Fire prism/Night spinner War walkers Dire Avengers Swooping hawks Scorpions Wraith guard/ Wraith baldes
Tier 3:
Storm Guardians AOK Phoenix Lords (all of them rlly..) Support weapons Falcons Vypers Banshees/Fire Dragon Wraithlords
Tier 4.
Wraith Knight
Very simplistic but Essentially went by grading my tiers by: Efficiency, duality, utility.
I think this approximation is close but any one of T2/T3 could be interchangeable imo depending if you build for it. Essentially if your army compromises of 80% Tier 1 units and then some T2 units you cant go wrong.
I tried going by popular opinion rather then my own bias for the most part. For example I really rate Support weapons and think they are strong Tier 2 pick even before master crafters.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/11/24 23:47:45
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
See this is the thing. Expert crafter vibro cannons are definitely not down in tier 3 anymore. I think that's objectively the case - but they do drop right off in other craftworlds.
Similarly, I never leave home without 2 squads of msu storm guardians with 2 fusion in each squad. With crafters they put out very reliable damage, and aren't ashamed to just point them both at intercessors or the like and delete 2. 76pts, a great price imo, if they have a serpent to hide in. That's more subjective though, I get people relegating them to tier 3. But 2 for me no doubt.
grouchoben wrote: See this is the thing. Expert crafter vibro cannons are definitely not down in tier 3 anymore. I think that's objectively the case - but they do drop right off in other craftworlds.
Similarly, I never leave home without 2 squads of msu storm guardians with 2 fusion in each squad. With crafters they put out very reliable damage, and aren't ashamed to just point them both at intercessors or the like and delete 2. 76pts, a great price imo, if they have a serpent to hide in. That's more subjective though, I get people relegating them to tier 3. But 2 for me no doubt.
I agree for the most part. But most people think stormies are bottom tier so I went by popular consensus.
I want to run a foot dar list with a lot of storm guardians 2x20 -with 2 fusion a pop and an AOK/asurmen plus 3x10 DAs to control the middle of the board whilst using expert crafter spearheads to zone out and screen the rest of the battle field. I just am a slow ass modeller and painter so that day is some times away lol. Also Im always drawn to bottom tier stuff to make it work and surprise my enemies. Nobody at my FLGC expected vibro cannons..
Edit: I noticed I didn't include the WK in the list.. quite frankly totally forgot it exists its so inefficient... He can have a tier all to himself Updated.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2019/11/24 23:48:02
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm personally not a huge fan of tier systems, with Eldar even more so, as so much depends on psychic phase and synergies and there's a lot of divergent opinions. I personally for example rate the guardian bomb really highly, others can't make it work. Is it tier 1 or garbage? I'll have a write down tomorrow afternoon on the units i feel comfortable rating, can't be bothered to do that on a phone though
Autarch
Warlock
Guardians/Rangers
Fire prism/Night spinner
War walkers
Dire Avengers
Swooping hawks
Scorpions
Wraith guard/ Wraith baldes
Tier 3:
Storm Guardians
AOK
Phoenix Lords (all of them rlly..)
Support weapons
Falcons
Vypers
Banshees/Fire Dragon
Wraithlords
Tier 4.
Wraith Knight
Very simplistic but Essentially went by grading my tiers by: Efficiency, duality, utility.
I think this approximation is close but any one of T2/T3 could be interchangeable imo depending if you build for it.
Essentially if your army compromises of 80% Tier 1 units and then some T2 units you cant go wrong.
I tried going by popular opinion rather then my own bias for the most part. For example I really rate Support weapons and think they are strong Tier 2 pick even before master crafters.
I'd put naked wraithlords at tier 2 for being dirt cheap (85pt) T8 bodies that provide board control while being inefficient for your opponent to remove. I'd also put the scorpion superheavy grav-tank at tier 2 as it demolishes just about any list that's not horde.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 03:55:00
Cpt. Icanus wrote: I'm personally not a huge fan of tier systems, with Eldar even more so, as so much depends on psychic phase and synergies and there's a lot of divergent opinions. I personally for example rate the guardian bomb really highly, others can't make it work. Is it tier 1 or garbage? I'll have a write down tomorrow afternoon on the units i feel comfortable rating, can't be bothered to do that on a phone though
Autarch Warlock Guardians/Rangers Fire prism/Night spinner War walkers Dire Avengers Swooping hawks Scorpions Wraith guard/ Wraith baldes
Tier 3:
Storm Guardians AOK Phoenix Lords (all of them rlly..) Support weapons Falcons Vypers Banshees/Fire Dragon Wraithlords
Tier 4.
Wraith Knight
Very simplistic but Essentially went by grading my tiers by: Efficiency, duality, utility.
I think this approximation is close but any one of T2/T3 could be interchangeable imo depending if you build for it. Essentially if your army compromises of 80% Tier 1 units and then some T2 units you cant go wrong.
I tried going by popular opinion rather then my own bias for the most part. For example I really rate Support weapons and think they are strong Tier 2 pick even before master crafters.
I'd put naked wraithlords at tier 2 for being dirt cheap (85pt) T8 bodies that provide board control while being inefficient for your opponent to remove. I'd also put the scorpion superheavy grav-tank at tier 2 as it demolishes just about any list that's not horde.
I think generally speaking if we're looking at a ruthless min maxing where our concern is Efficiency, duality, utility one would pick T2 units over a WL if the rest of the roster was filled by T1 units. Or more to the point the Wraith seer being a defacto better WL.. Hence it living in T3. There are just better options like walkers/night spinners. (I think he should be T2 also tbh… I drop additional 10-20 points on mine with glaives and SC for extra potency and its probably one of my favourite kits..)
I have omitted all of the FW options and focused n codex entries.. I'd be happy to add them. However with my limited experience of only using wraithseers and spectres(Both of which which I rate as T2 units) I can only go by theory hammer paper exercise so I feel like I should refrain judgement.. Also id need to give the index xenos imperial armour another glance as I'm very rusty on the units.
CAVEAT: CA 2019 points adjustment pre orders are a week out so this may well impact the choices in terms of efficiency.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/11/25 04:22:56
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
That shows my issues with tier lists. It's just not that simple. I'd never rate Reapers as T1 anymore outside MSU expert crafters.
I guess everyone has a nit pick about every other person's list (and that is m8stly a good thing!).
Tier lists aren't a good assessment of how units or an army works.
I respect that it can be easy to list things in tiers and I also respect that everyone has different ways they like to play the game, but the best way to assess how good a unit is, is based on whether they see play in the competitive scene or not. It's not a simple "hot or not", you can see how much a certain unit appears in competitive lists because there are always "techs" that make appearances in some lists.
Once you get the competitive units out of the way, you can discuss the potential of units that are semi-competitive and so on.
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tier lists aren't a good assessment of how units or an army works.
I respect that it can be easy to list things in tiers and I also respect that everyone has different ways they like to play the game, but the best way to assess how good a unit is, is based on whether they see play in the competitive scene or not. It's not a simple "hot or not", you can see how much a certain unit appears in competitive lists because there are always "techs" that make appearances in some lists.
Once you get the competitive units out of the way, you can discuss the potential of units that are semi-competitive and so on.
But what you are suggesting here is tier lists? If we categorise by competitive, semi-competitive, not competitive that's the tier list in this case
That's why I'm thinking an individual unit analysis on the most competitive way to run a unit like my Dire Avenger example would be better?
~500pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme
~7500pts Asuryani assembled some with old colour scheme
Tyranid Horde wrote: Tier lists aren't a good assessment of how units or an army works.
I respect that it can be easy to list things in tiers and I also respect that everyone has different ways they like to play the game, but the best way to assess how good a unit is, is based on whether they see play in the competitive scene or not. It's not a simple "hot or not", you can see how much a certain unit appears in competitive lists because there are always "techs" that make appearances in some lists.
Once you get the competitive units out of the way, you can discuss the potential of units that are semi-competitive and so on.
But isn't that a Tier List in itself?
Units that see competetive play Units that get teched in Units that don't see comp play Units that are considered trash
Not every Tier List has to be 100% accurate, but I still think that such a list would help newcommers get a general idea on which unit is fieldable in what environment
Edit: Meh, Korlandil beat me to it Sneaky Striking scorpion is obiously faster than a Tough-as-Nails Ork boy
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 09:34:02
Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like soup. Now you put soup in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put soup into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now soup can flow or it can crash. Be soup, my friend.
Of course I am suggesting a tier list, and I didn't state otherwise. Tier lists are not a good assessment of how units or an army work. Tier lists are fundamentally based on the competitive meta and the listing should reflect that rather than stating something is Tier 1, 2, 45, etc.
Your way is fine to an extent (korlandril), but has absolutely no reasoning as to why you've tiered them this way. Stating what something does or saying not as good as X isn't sound reasoning.
Edit: In addition, you'd ideally want to pair individual unit analysis with maths/stats and their synergies with other units, and differentiate between what is tier 1 for a Crimson Hunter and what is tier 1 for a Dire Avenger.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2019/11/25 09:44:56
Dire Avengers A cheap Troop choice when taken as a 5-man squad while still with some good capability. 5+ overwatch, 4+ save. Always take an Exarch for a free extra wound.
I don't think there needs to be a description of the units rules, or for every power/ability to be covered. How about something like:
Unit: Dire Avengers
Tournament stats: (I'm not sure what form these actually take!)
Ways to play them: (people post how they run the unit, and all the ideas are listed) eg...
I run them as 58pts for a 5 man unit with an Exarch with 2x Catapults, and the Shredding Fire Exarch power. This configuration is cheap to fill out a battalion. It's fast with good firepower for it's cost, but isn't very durable, so I like to run them in Wave Serpents.
I'm a mad cat who likes to run a full unit of 10 with the Avenging Strikes Exarch power in a Wave Serpent. The plan is for my Serpent to get blown to bits, taking an Avenger or two with it, so that the squad gets +1 to hit and wound!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 12:49:55
Slight tweak to the list (ITC format). I got in a few more games with this list (dealing with resin quality of FW minis halted the progress of my additional 2 Hornets). Played against Admech, Ultramarines, and Iron Hands. Right now, the list demonstrated resiliency and offensive firepower to take on all but the Iron Hands. The exact same Centurion unit in an Ultramarine vs Iron Hand army was shocking. The Iron Hands were more resilient. Combined with 3 Leviathan Dreadnoughts, I felt like I was playing a completely different game. A single Leviathan one shots a Wave Serpent or flier once in range. I effectively had only one turn avoiding range (turn 1).
Iron Hands aside, I felt confident against the other armies. I still have not faced the other new Marine supplements, so that is definitely a challenge.
Lessons learned is the army can hit quite hard in turns one and two, and can wrack points quickly. Against the Ultramarines, I earned 10 points to my opponent's 1 on turn one and we called the game. I think playing aggressively to one flank/center has worked very well as opposed to attacking a wide front. Using a Wave Serpent to assault a very shooty unit who can't fall back and shoot is an important option (Admech Robots). Also of note is the mortal wounds two psykers can put out. In one phase, I got very good rolls and put out 14 MW from Yvraine and the Farseer. The Farseer, effectively has two rerolls in the psychic phase (warlord trait) and sometimes can fish for the super smite. Time the Executioner for when a unit has a model with one or two wounds remaining in order to get the additional d3 mortal wounds. With all the fast moving units, it is not difficult to ensure the characters are not the closest target. Finally, the Nightspinners did work very well for their points.
Expert Crafters is an excellent trait and Masters of Concealment played well over multiple occasions, although there were units who ignored cover, so not quite as useful, but still good.
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: Teir lists are a bit subjective, if there are stats available that reflect a units use in competitive games, then include that in the unit review.
Dire Avengers A cheap Troop choice when taken as a 5-man squad while still with some good capability. 5+ overwatch, 4+ save. Always take an Exarch for a free extra wound.
I don't think there needs to be a description of the units rules, or for every power/ability to be covered. How about something like:
Unit: Dire Avengers
Tournament stats: (I'm not sure what form these actually take!)
Ways to play them: (people post how they run the unit, and all the ideas are listed) eg...
I run them as 58pts for a 5 man unit with an Exarch with 2x Catapults, and the Shredding Fire Exarch power. This configuration is cheap to fill out a battalion. It's fast with good firepower for it's cost, but isn't very durable, so I like to run them in Wave Serpents.
I'm a mad cat who likes to run a full unit of 10 with the Avenging Strikes Exarch power in a Wave Serpent. The plan is for my Serpent to get blown to bits, taking an Avenger or two with it, so that the squad gets +1 to hit and wound!
This would work, and as for tournament stats, you could easily list the frequency of said unit appearing in ITC lists for the past year and how many units were taken. Maybe state that they're a troop tax for CP etc. Not every unit that is taken are taken because they're good, it's because they're cheap filler units!
So I've had the crazy idea of running both avatars, Khaines and Ynneads, in the same list. I think this is allowed so long as they are not in the same detachment.
Initially I thought of going with hordes of Guardians to screen them, as they would be fearless, but I decided that they weren't durable enough. Instead I'm going to try screening with Wave Serpents and Ynnari Wraithseers:
Ynnari Supreme Command:
Yncarne
Wraithseer, 5+++ and half all damage relic.
Wraithseer, 5+++ WL trait and -1 to hit relic.
Craftworlds Battalion: Masters of Concealment and Master Crafters
Avatar
Farseer
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
The super tough Wraithseers and Wave Serpents have to be taken out before the avatars can be shot, which hopefully gives the Prisms and Crimson Hunter a free ride.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 16:01:36
Moosatronic Warrior wrote: So I've had the crazy idea of running both avatars, Khaines and Ynneads, in the same list. I think this is allowed so long as they are not in the same detachment.
Initially I thought of going with hordes of Guardians to screen them, as they would be fearless, but I decided that they weren't durable enough. Instead I'm going to try screening with Wave Serpents and Ynnari Wraithseers:
Ynnari Supreme Command:
Yncarne
Wraithseer, 5+++ and half all damage relic.
Wraithseer, 5+++ WL trait and -1 to hit relic.
Craftworlds Battalion: Masters of Concealment and Master Crafters
Avatar
Farseer
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
5x Avengers, shredding Fire
The super tough Wraithseers and Wave Serpents have to be taken out before the avatars can be shot, which hopefully gives the Prisms and Crimson Hunter a free ride.
AOK is not a named character as per an FAQ. As such he can take warlord traits.
Not sure how others feel but im on the side of the fence where i see this is a CWE tactica thread.. The moment you put in ynnari detatchement it becomes ynarri soup.
Any tactical discussion imvolving ynmari should in my opinion move to ynnari tactica thread.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
AOK is not a named character as per an FAQ. As such he can take warlord traits.
Not sure how others feel but im on the side of the fence where i see this is a CWE tactica thread.. The moment you put in ynnari detatchement it becomes ynarri soup.
Any tactical discussion imvolving ynmari should in my opinion move to ynnari tactica thread.
I thought I'd read something saying AOK couldn't have WL traits once upon a time.
I'm not sure which thread a list which combines more than one faction should go, but Ynnari are so rarely used it's not likely to be an issue often
The super tough Wraithseers and Wave Serpents have to be taken out before the avatars can be shot, which hopefully gives the Prisms and Crimson Hunter a free ride.
I'm pretty sure the wraithseers being characters make them unable to screen for the AoK?
Other than that, i 100% support playing the yncarne + Wraithseer in a supreme command, loads of fun and it taxes the opponent on their decision making (with the yncarne being able to navigate the whole map easily).
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Sarigar wrote: Assuming the Hemlock or weapons points do not change, I swap out a Hemlock for a CHE, giving me 3 CHE and 2 Hemlocks.
With Hawkeye and Expert Crafters, the points increase is still a near auto take.
Yep. Its just now you get less of anything else you might want to take in a hard core competitive scene. (Yaaaaaay.. ?) I can maybe see an argument being made for hemlocks being more common sight now as the point gap has decreased. But still think CHE with hawkeye and crafters is just tooo good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/11/25 22:49:48
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
~500pts Asuryani painted new colour scheme
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
Competition Index
Eldar- 4436 pts
and its probably one of my favourite kits..)
