Codex: Craftworlds Tactics Thread v2.0 - 9th Edition

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**wuestenfux**

As it stands, I'm not looking at two battalions. I'm looking at a Harlequin Battalion and a Craftworld Spearhead. Points values, CP cost are big factors, but the mission is going to be very significant.

Harlies are not a competitive army, at least not at the level of a battalion.
In a competitive setting, you may think about Skyweavers.

**Sarigar**

I never excluded Skyweavers as an option, but provided justification as to why it's worth reviewing a Harlequin Battalion. I'm well aware of Skyweavers.

You provide nothing other than dismissive statements. Maybe offer something constructive would be a more meaningful contribution?

**grouchoben**

Harlies are a very different proposition these days - the Shadowseer buffs alone make them quite a bit more survivable.

**wuestenfux**

Sarigar wrote:
I never excluded Skyweavers as an option, but provided justification as to why it's worth reviewing a Harlequin Battalion. I'm well aware of Skyweavers.

You provide nothing other than dismissive statements. Maybe offer something constructive would be a more meaningful contribution?

Well, I played Harlies in several test battles.
Harlie troupes mounted onto Skyweavers are usually the core of a Harlie army.
But I figured that its difficult to deliver the Troupes to where you want them. The enemy can change the order of hitting in cc and so take the sting a bit out of the charge. And when the enemy hits back in cc, it can become painful even with a 4++ save. From my experience, its better to charge with one unit per turn. On the other hand, Skyweavers are one of the better units in 40k. I fielded three units of 5 and they can hit the enemy hard if supported right.

**Sarigar**

wuestenfux wrote:
Sarigar wrote:
I never excluded Skyweavers as an option, but provided justification as to why it's worth reviewing a Harlequin Battalion. I'm well aware of Skyweavers.

You provide nothing other than dismissive statements. Maybe offer something constructive would be a more meaningful contribution?

Well, I played Harlies in several test battles.
Harlie troupes mounted onto Skyweavers are usually the core of a Harlie army.
But I figured that its difficult to deliver the Troupes to where you want them. The enemy can change the order of hitting in cc and so take the sting a bit out of the charge. And when the enemy hits back in cc, it can become painful even with a 4++ save. From my experience, its better to charge with one unit per turn. On the other hand, Skyweavers are one of the better units in 40k. I fielded three units of 5 and they can hit the enemy hard if supported right.

I don't think anyone questions whether Skyweavers are A good unit. What is your ideas to hold objectives and score points in 9th edition? Skyweavers would lose the ability to shoot and assault if they try to hold an objective. I dont think that would be a good use for Skyweavers. That is the crux of my statements/questions.

**Argive**

Sarigar wrote:
As it stands, I'm not looking at two battalions. I'm looking at a Harlequin Battalion and a Craftworld Spearhead. Points values, CP cost are big factors, but the mission is going to be very significant.

If a significant amount of VP is earned by keeping models on an objective until the beginnjjng of your next command phase. There are a few factors I see immediately. Durability of the unit trying to score the VP; what that you gives up to score (shooting and assault); how difficult will it be for your opponent to remove said unit; the amount of pressure I can present with other units; Troops still having an advantage over non Troops.

I've played these types of missions in previous editions (folks who run the Atlanta GT used similar missions before converting to ITC). What this created was folks spending turn 1 getting units onto objectives and presenting other threats so significant that the opponent would have little options open to go after the units trying to score. GW has now added an additional layer that the units trying to score lose their shooting and assault option. With that, I want to utilize the least costly, yet most resilient Troop choice in order to score points.

Harlequin Troupes have easy access to -1 to hit, -1 to wound, and a 4++. They also have an edge in movement. Again, points can toss this idea, but a Battalion can be quite cheap to build.

Craftworlds Troop choices appear to offer less based on what I think will be important in 9th edition missions. However, if I relax the need for units to be a Troop choice (adding a bit more risk to my plans), Windriders can also be a good option. Based on current points, keep them cheap at 54 points.

Without these kinds of units, I risk sacrificing units I need as a threat in order to score.

This does not even factor in the smaller table size that I am confident I will end up playing most of my games on. My current playstyle and army design will need to adapt to 9th editions missions.

I think bare bones DA squads or storm guardians will be what I'm going to go with pts pending.

**Sarigar**

Point changes unknown, but to hold an objective, if having a choice of a 55 point unit, the Harlequin Troupe is more survivable and has with better movement capability than the Dire Avenger unit.

A recent battle report may help demonstrate what I'm referring to for anyone not familiar with this type of scoring mechanic. It's a Skaredcast battle report trying to show the rules known for 9th.

https://youtu.be/VMS4Hr2f9L0

**yukishiro1**

Troupe units are really, really good. I'm constantly surprised people bag on them. Aside from intercessors, it's hard to come up with another troop choice that is better. I think where people usually go wrong is in making them too expensive, taking fusion pistols and weapons on all of them, so you end up with something that's 25 points a unit instead of the 14ish it ought to be when you take a couple weapons in a squad and leave a couple base. At that price point, they're super resilient with the -1W to wound, the -6" range, a 3++ if you want to spend the 1CP for it.

**Barbachop**

If we can deep strike after turn 3 then we get some good value out of 5 rangers right? Maybe my reading is mistaken but it seems they can hoover up any objective your opponent hasn't put units within 9 inches on turns 4+

**wuestenfux**

Point changes unknown, but to hold an objective, if having a choice of a 55 point unit, the Harlequin Troupe is more survivable and has with better movement capability than the Dire Avenger unit.

But they won't survive much longer.
If the enemy targets a 5 men Troupe squad, it will hardly survive. Hands down.

**Sarigar**

wuestenfux wrote:
Point changes unknown, but to hold an objective, if having a choice of a 55 point unit, the Harlequin Troupe is more survivable and has with better movement capability than the Dire Avenger unit.

But they won't survive much longer.
If the enemy targets a 5 men Troupe squad, it will hardly survive. Hands down.

That is why I previously brought up the importance of having other units putting significant pressure on your opponent in order to force them to not deal with the 5 man squads.

What would you recommend in your army go sit on an objective whichnwill lose the ability to shoot and assault?

Here are a few ideas that come to mind:

-Swooping Hawks seem like an option as they would likely retain the grenade drop ability as it occurs in the movement phase and they are relatively cheap. Great movement to get to objectives, but would not sustain getting shot at. The Exarch ability for to apply a -2 movement penalty for assault could be valuable.
-Alaitoc Rangers possibly; mainly because of the stratagem that can be used on them to only be hit on 6's.
-Windrider squads. Cheapish and fast.

Skyweavers definitely have their place in an army, but I highly doubt you will be willing to sacrifice their shooting and assault in order to score an objective. Skyweavers is the perfect pressure unit to force the opponent to not go after your objective scoring units.

I think MSU will become quite important primarily due to mission design (progressive scoring).

**wuestenfux**

What would you recommend in your army go sit on an objective whichnwill lose the ability to shoot and assault?

As you already mentioned, putting pressure upon the enemy will make the opponent hard pressed to make decisions.

I prefer a fully mobile army in the first place.
My experience tells me if you have static units, the enemy will move some units up there.
This is not what you want, you want to move the enemy where you want it to move.
Scoring is then basically a matter of timing and positioning.

**Sarigar**

I am not sure you understand the topic I am inquiring about. Best of luck.

**wuestenfux**

Sarigar wrote:
I am not sure you understand the topic I am inquiring about. Best of luck.

No, Harlie Troupes in an Eldar army - I will never understand that.
You would be better off in the Harlie thread.

**grouchoben**

If that logic generalises, Sarigar will just be told that he'd be better off in the CWE thread.

**wuestenfux**

grouchoben wrote:
If that logic generalises, Sarigar will just be told that he'd be better off in the CWE thread.

With a Harlie core, he will be better off in the Harlie thread.

**grouchoben**

Forgive me if I've got this wrong, Sarigar, but it seems you're suggeting plugging an MSU Harly batallion into your CWE force to provide you with troops that are cheaper than DA or rangers, but also have a native 4++ and access to -1 to wound buff. This would give you some kind of obsec ability, and also unlock pressure units like Skyweavers, and the excellent roster of Harly HQs such as the Solitair and Jesters.

That sounds like it's very much relevant to a CWE discussion, because it leaves aroun 1300-1400pts of CWE to select, or maybe less if you opted to upgear a troupe and give them a ride.

I don't really understand the reluctance to talk about how CWE soup in a CWE thread, given that CWE have access to such interesting options, which all starkly change your available playstyles.

**Sarigar**

That, combined with progressive scoring (units sitting on an objective through your opponents turn before you can actually earn points) and the new game mechanic that forbids any unit that is trying to score to shoot or declare an assault.

It can be a Battalion, but it just as well be a Patrol; all depends on how many Harlequin Troupe units one would want.

Trying to look at how the new missions work. An army I just ran this weekend (posted on previous page), would get absolutely wrecked in 9th edition within these new missions.

**Turnip Jedi**

Depend how common these 'action' objectives are really I guess and if doing it stops psykers as jetlocks or even footlocks with abaltive meatsheilds or a serpent might be the go to, or even a barebone wraithlord as a harder to shift dedicted objective clicker

**Sarigar**

Valid points all-around. Bare bones Wraithlords could be a solid choice. It's all speculation, but have been curious to see how the game and armies will change in what may be as early as late July.

**Leo_the_Rat**

We know from the previews that non-infantry models can move and fire a heavy weapon without penalty. My question is how does that effect the tactical difference between taking a shuriken cannon vs either a scatter laser or star cannon. How important is it that you can assault and still fire your shuriken cannonrather than having the better weapon range of the other 2 choices? As a side thought how do you think this will effect each weapon's point cost?

**Turnip Jedi**

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
We know from the previews that non-infantry models can move and fire a heavy weapon without penalty. My question is how does that effect the tactical difference between taking a shuriken cannon vs either a scatter laser or star cannon. How important is it that you can assault and still fire your shuriken cannonrather than having the better weapon range of the other 2 choices? As a side thought how do you think this will effect each weapon's point cost?

Have a feeling most of the popular midrange guns like Starcannons, Dizzys etc will get a slight utility bump in points (or that they splat nu-marines a treat your salt / tinfoil milage may vary

Scatter Lasers are a bit tricker to call as 4/8 shots is very reliable dakka and with the heavy penalty going I suspect without a sizable points gap between them and shurki-cannons theyll become default unless the math-hammer of custom shuriken related traits shows a decent damage increase/parity, plus given 9th is hard on hordes they might just be cheap for funs

**Argive**

Fist wraithlord with star cannon/EML and EC is going to be good.

I rated them at the end of 8th anyway. But mainly used star cannon /BL. Thank god for magnets

Cant wait to use the wraiths in new paradigm.

**Turnip Jedi**

and whilst its at least a year off will we get to keep EC, currently a coin flip between oops we gave xenos a good thing cant have that and the benign nelect of copy/paste letting it sneak past (ditto Dark Technomancy for deldar)

**Barbachop**

Another Nick Nanavati game this evening, interesting that one of the top tournament players went with such a plethora of troops - however a lot of the trends that have come up in this thread recently have shown up in his list (wraithlords, harlequin troops.) Admittedly this isn't an official tournament list but it is interesting to see one the world's top players choose to go with such a troop heavy list - repeatedly filling up on Dire Avengers (34 of them plus Asurmen.) He also went with Avenging strike which seems to creep up more often. I need to have a play around on TTS to try it out it seems. And paint more DAs.

Today's leaks confirmed what most probably suspected that outriders/vanguard/spearhead detachments carry a 3cp tax, so my current ulthwe batallion ec/mc spearhead/outrider will need some tailoring.

Spoiler:

*edit* as a public service announcement if anyone is curious about TTS its heavily discounted right now on a certain gaseous-form-of-water online retailer

**grouchoben**

Wow, that's an interesting patrol! 159pts on a single troupe eh?

**Barbachop**

grouchoben wrote:
Wow, that's an interesting patrol! 159pts on a single troupe eh?

Yeah I'm not gona link it as it's behind their paywall but hopefully he's about to shred John Lennon's Imperial Guard

**Sarigar**

I'll likely watch it tomorrow, but Avenging Strike is working well for a buddy of mine. However, he run 8-10 strong units to mitigate loss of models and extend the time the DA receive the bonus.

But, being in Wave Serpents is interesting. If it is destroyed with the units inside, each unit is likely to lose a single model each, thus ensuring they ge the Avenging Strike but mitigating how much of the unit gets removed.

Also, most of the rules are linked via News and Rumors including missions, detachments and such. It will definitely help plan out armies. I'm roughly building out 1750 lists to be what a 2000 point 9th edition list would look like.

**kingheff**

I'm curious how this played out. I've seen the other guys saying that Nick's style of eldar lists will struggle in ninth.

**Barbachop**

Gona stick this on at lunchtime when I get done with work so will post how it played out later. It was a "what we know about 9th" game, so with the timing of everything that leaked yesterday I'm curious if they use the leaked ruleset.

For me personally looks like I'll run an Ulthwe patrol plus EC/MS battalion to start with 10cp, first game is scheduled for August first up here.