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Sarigar, your friends have some cheek! What they call tailoring is the last few units that funtion well in the 9e meta. Taking things outside that small list is playing with a severe disadvantage. Tell them to go swivel!

 kingheff wrote:
The way they can spread out after deployment is the main reason I take them. Plus it helps with their survivability, being single five wound models makes them difficult to take out efficiently with things like eradicators or charging blade guard.
I'm interested in the d cannons but with the slow movement I'm not sure if they're what I want, I'd take warwalkers with twin star cannons over them for the same points. At 45 pts vibros and the longer range just look like the better option.

D-Cannon are great. They're fairly survivable as it's easy for them to hide out of LOS, and you can give them a 4+ invulnerable save in a pinch. Some things kill them quickly, but most opponents ignore them -- for the first few games, at least!

They also hit extremely hard; a battery of them concentrating on the same target can take it down quick. Generally speaking, the more guns you have that ignore LOS, the better.

Eltharion wrote:
What do you think about FW to save our craftworlds?

Out of the new Forgeworld units I've used:

Shadow Spectres are very good, so long as you can avoid high AP, high ROF fire. With the cover bonus they're fairly resistant to small arms fire, but against -2 or -3 Space Marine Guns they fold quick. Their guns are perfect for killing pretty much any kind of infantry -- point and shoot, and position to reduce incoming fire.

Hornets are merely okay. Their new pulse lasers are kind of lame, as they're adequate against everything and good against nothing. Hornets remain fairly tough, and are more difficult to kill than our other gun platforms. Hornets, War Walkers, and Vypers all seem equally good to me.

Warp Hunters still kick like a mule, but the new 24" range stinks. Take them if you're doing a city fight with tons of LOS-blocking terrain, or if you're playing an aggressive army that can shield the Warp Hunters when they zoom into position. The auto-hit, 3-shot, 12"-range version is perfect for wiping out small squads of Marines.

Wraithseers are overpriced. Losing the Character keyword removes all of their funky tricks. They're not bad and the d-cannon is still a good gun, so I don't regret playing with my Wraithseer. However, don't expect anything special from them.

Any helpful tips for a new pure Craftworlds player?

 l0k1 wrote:
Any helpful tips for a new pure Craftworlds player?

pick a few units you like until a new codex drops. Right now, our best units (war walkers, vypers, falcons) are somewhat our downfall, too, giving up heaps of BP on secondaries. could also be those units get utterly gimped with a new book. so go with what you like is the best bet for now, as you'll at least enjoy building and painting the models.

Cpt. Icanus wrote:

 l0k1 wrote:
Any helpful tips for a new pure Craftworlds player?

pick a few units you like until a new codex drops. Right now, our best units (war walkers, vypers, falcons) are somewhat our downfall, too, giving up heaps of BP on secondaries. could also be those units get utterly gimped with a new book. so go with what you like is the best bet for now, as you'll at least enjoy building and painting the models.

Concur. Currently, my lists are heavily skewed towards vehicles just to make it somewhat playable.

I also agree with the above. I've agonised long over army lists to not haemorrhage secondaries but all I'm doing is handicapping myself to an almost ridiculous degree.

Come to think of it, characters are propably the best all round investment. A Farseer and Spiritseer or Warlock make it pretty much into any lists. Other than that, see above ^^

Thats kinda the feel I was getting reading through the last few pages. I just have to make the hard decisions on what to fit in and what strategy to go with .

Cpt. Icanus wrote:
Come to think of it, characters are propably the best all round investment. A Farseer and Spiritseer or Warlock make it pretty much into any lists. Other than that, see above ^^

Yeah Farseers and a warlock or two have always held a place in Eldar lists since I started playing in 3rd edition. Another unit I would say has almost always had a place is the Wave Serpent. Don’t remember an edition when at least one or two serpents are a bad addition to a list. Obviously this could change with the new codex but thus far they’ve always been at least decent.

Going for an autarch, farseer and warlock on bike seems a good place to start, along with a spiritseer for flexibility.
I'd probably go for the start collecting set and some magnets for the wraiths and walkers which gets you a foot farseer too. Whether they transition well to the new codex is up in the air but you do get a lot of stuff for not a lot of money.

 kingheff wrote:
Going for an autarch, farseer and warlock on bike seems a good place to start, along with a spiritseer for flexibility.
I'd probably go for the start collecting set and some magnets for the wraiths and walkers which gets you a foot farseer too. Whether they transition well to the new codex is up in the air but you do get a lot of stuff for not a lot of money.

I picked up a sizeable army back in 7th, and picked up another large army recently. I've just never put the army on the table, but I'm looking to change that . At this point the only things I can't field at least 1 unit of are Striking Scorpions, foot Autarchs, Wind riders, Falcons, and FW units I think

 l0k1 wrote:

 kingheff wrote:
Going for an autarch, farseer and warlock on bike seems a good place to start, along with a spiritseer for flexibility.
I'd probably go for the start collecting set and some magnets for the wraiths and walkers which gets you a foot farseer too. Whether they transition well to the new codex is up in the air but you do get a lot of stuff for not a lot of money.

I picked up a sizeable army back in 7th, and picked up another large army recently. I've just never put the army on the table, but I'm looking to change that . At this point the only things I can't field at least 1 unit of are Striking Scorpions, foot Autarchs, Wind riders, Falcons, and FW units I think

Ah, that's a bit different then!
Vehicles and psykers are our strengths at the moment, most of our infantry is more of a weakness unfortunately, especially with how 9th works.
The way I've had most success, admittedly on TTS, is by running nine vypers as my screen/board control elements, six support weapons and six war walkers for backfield firepower and two squads of shining spears for counter charge.
I know I'm going to give up bring em down but I can't find a way to build anything decent without relying on vehicles.

From what I've been reading mech is the way to go to the moment. I'm trying to figure out a list running MSU squads of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents as a base. Trying to figure out how many Farseers/Warlocks I should be running, and if they should be on bikes is my current problem other than squeezing in points.

This is the current 1500pts I've been tinkering with

1500pts
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots

Farseer Skyrunner 140pts
Shining Spear
Fortune/Doom

Warlock Skyscanner 65pts
Protect/Jinx

3 x 5 Dire Avengers 210pts
Exarch 2x Avenger Catapult
Exarch Power - Bladestorm

3 Wave Serpents 480pts
Twin Starcannons

5 Warp Spiders 90pts
Exarch Power - Web of Deceit

5 Shining Spears 175pts
Exarch Power - Withdraw

5 Dark Reapers 175pts

3 War Walkers 165pts
2 Starcannons

I'm thinking of focusing on Deploy Scramblers, Engage On All Fronts, and Thin Their Ranks? I'll use the Warp Spiders to deploy scramblers in the enemy deployment zone and bounce out with Web of Deceit. Any thoughts and what I should do to bump it to 2k?

 l0k1 wrote:
From what I've been reading mech is the way to go to the moment. I'm trying to figure out a list running MSU squads of Dire Avengers in Wave Serpents as a base. Trying to figure out how many Farseers/Warlocks I should be running, and if they should be on bikes is my current problem other than squeezing in points.

This is the current 1500pts I've been tinkering with

1500pts
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots

Farseer Skyrunner 140pts
Shining Spear
Fortune/Doom

Warlock Skyscanner 65pts
Protect/Jinx

3 x 5 Dire Avengers 210pts
Exarch 2x Avenger Catapult
Exarch Power - Bladestorm

3 Wave Serpents 480pts
Twin Starcannons

5 Warp Spiders 90pts
Exarch Power - Web of Deceit

5 Shining Spears 175pts
Exarch Power - Withdraw

5 Dark Reapers 175pts

3 War Walkers 165pts
2 Starcannons

I'm thinking of focusing on Deploy Scramblers, Engage On All Fronts, and Thin Their Ranks? I'll use the Warp Spiders to deploy scramblers in the enemy deployment zone and bounce out with Web of Deceit. Any thoughts and what I should do to bump it to 2k?

My issue with this idea is that Dire Avengers are just not very good (though our best troop). If you are going to run a battalion you should be taking 3 HQs and probably making use of extra heavy support slot you have over a patrol and if not dropping down to a patrol imo.

If you are taking Dire Avengers Battle fortune is the only way to go, bladestorm gives you a very very minor damage output buff, but damage output is not the primary focus for DA. What battle fortune does is give you a 2 wound 4++ which if you assign wounds correctly gives a surprisingly good survivability boost to the squad, and you want DA to be surviving not dishing out what I think averages out to half an unsaved wound against primaris.

Following on from that point I would consider the extra avenger catapult on the Exarch as a secondary upgrade (same with singing spears) after all other primary upgrades are taken, for example vehicle upgrades I would always consider first as they are all very good (apart from Star engines which are mediocre really).

And Farseers and warlocks should always be on bikes, the movement , toughness and wound boost are amazing. If you want a foot seer a Spiritseer with faulchus wing is good.

The 3++ power on the Shining Spear is very good too I think but I think withdraw isn't terrible.

For going to 2k points Wraithseer is always nice to have now it's heavy support and has access to runes of battle, and is a great candidate for witchstrike. More Shining Spears as invulnerables, laser lances and have twin-shuriken which after Starcannons might be our best Weapon, especially when you compare to shuriken cannons which are always 10pts more on platforms that can take them.

Strongly disagree on Battlefortune. Typically your DA will be hiding or in a falcon or in DS. As soo as they appear, and your opponent gets a bead on them, they are dead. 6w t3 with a momentary 4++ is still a god awful defensive profile.

They have 3 purposes in Eldar lists:

1) To pay the troop tax/grab the occasional uncontested objective
2) To deploy scramblers and engage on all fronts
3) To throw out a decent bit of anti-infantry dakka before they fold

Bladestorm really does help with 3), especially if they're targetting a doomed/jinxed enemy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Agree with the rest of your advice though. If I was looking to add to that list, I'd add 4 more spears for sure and the rest on guuny mech like Lynx, Vypers, more Walkers, Platforms or Falcons.

Or I might go for double Crimson Hunter Exarchs - I haven't seen them much in 9e which is strange as they got a huge boost from the new vehicle rule freeing up their exarch power. Baked in -1 to hit and 5++, with the option of a 2+ is gold-standard defence for vehicles.

I've run 2 x CHE in a three round event and they served me very well. Of note, all three opponents played some faction of Space Marines. I don't think I would take them to larger events as more experienced players will be better suited to deal with them.

Dire Avengers start in a vehicle or off board and I generally get one turn out of them once they are on the table. They net me 1-2 Deploy Scramblers and will hold/contest an objective. They get shot off the table. I take a dual Catapult Exarch with Shredding Fire to get the one volley off (Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots).

I rarely, if ever run HQs on a bike. My go to has been a Farseer and 2 man Warlcok Conclave. Getting Jinx off with 36" range while the Farseer buffs other units has worked very well.

Until we get a codex, I've relegated running a mechanized list which wins more than it loses (I am also against a lot of Marine armies).

Farseer
Warlock Conclave (2)

3 x 5 Dire Avengers

1 x5 Warp Spiders (Web of Deceit)
2 x 3 Vypers (Starcannons)

1 x 1 Lynx (Spirit Stones, Starcannon)
1 x 3 War Walkers with Star Cannons
1 x 6 Dark Reapers (Rapid Shot)

1 x 3 Wave Serpents (Spirit Stones and Twin Starcannon)

 grouchoben wrote:
Strongly disagree on Battlefortune. Typically your DA will be hiding or in a falcon or in DS. As soo as they appear, and your opponent gets a bead on them, they are dead. 6w t3 with a momentary 4++ is still a god awful defensive profile.

They have 3 purposes in Eldar lists:

1) To pay the troop tax/grab the occasional uncontested objective
2) To deploy scramblers and engage on all fronts
3) To throw out a decent bit of anti-infantry dakka before they fold

Bladestorm really does help with 3), especially if they're targetting a doomed/jinxed enemy.

So here is the maths on it:

It's a 5 man DA squad and I've given the Exarch two shurikens, and it's against primaris profile so T4 W2 3+. You can see against bolt rifles it's half a wound extra saved on the DA with Battle Fortune and an extra unsaved wound against a Primaris squad if taking bladestorm

The real benefit of Battle Fortune is against high ap weapons, you can see against plasma it's on average an extra 2 whole wounds saved which is the difference between the squad being wiped out or surviving with 2 aspect warriors, with a lot of objectives requiring you to hold for a turn to score, Battle fortune is a no brainer in 9th. Ideally yeah they'll be hiding somewhere or somehow but you can't always gaurentee that.

However against weaker opponents T3 4+ etc. bladestorm obviously will be a bit better than against marines, and once the Exarch is dead you don't gain benefit of a 4++ anymore but I think it's an invaluable little tool to have on your DA instead of a very marginal offensive boost from bladestorm.

 Sarigar wrote:



I rarely, if ever run HQs on a bike. My go to has been a Farseer and 2 man Warlcok Conclave. Getting Jinx off with 36" range while the Farseer buffs other units has worked very well.

I think I'm right in saying that seer council doesn't work with conclaves right? If so, is the range benefit worth trading out the +1 for the farseer and warlock? I'd say that's maybe my favourite strat in the codex so I'd be hard pressed to give it up.

Seer Council works. It has the specific `Warlock` keyword, as well `Warlock Conclave`. It and the Farseer then just need to be from the same Craftworld.

I was never sure if conclaves could use it but it's nice that they can, the double range is definitely useful.

Having just finishing getting my seer council together I've been looking at restrain as a good option to fling about.

Has anyone any other ideas on how to use them?

Remember that the Warlock Conclave loses the character keyword, which means they can't use Look out Sir for protection. On the other hand, a squad of three+ can protect a Farseer hanging out with them.

Based on my experience with Seer Councils (i.e. 1 or 2 Farseers + a Warlock Conclave) on foot is that the Conclave dies quickly if you're not careful. I would strongly consider starting them off in a transport and then being very careful with them once they disembark. Don't hesitate to buff them with Protect or Fortune.

Use the boosted range to the Conclave's powers to debuff enemy units. That extra range is what they give you over regular psykers, allowing you to target units in the back lines.

Sadly, Warlocks are much less effective in combat than they were in prior editions. I wouldn't rely on them to kill much, unless they happen to encounter the rare target with high wounds, high toughness, and bad armor.

I can't see much of a use for conclaves beyond a two man hiding to cast at double range unfortunately. That's definitely got it's uses but I'm struggling to see a case for a bigger unit, which is a shame since I've got a half dozen old eBay warlocks waiting to get repainted.

2 Man is all I really use. Start in a vehicle, disemabark and get out of LOS. Can use Seer Council stratagem and/or Focus Will and then, after a successful cast, use Concordance of Power for double range. It works very well to cast Jinx.

I've found I don't need Doom to accompany Jinx as most of my army shooting is S6 +. Between Expert Crafters and Masterful Shots, and a start to reroll '1' to wound rolls if near a Farseer, I keep my psykers much further back and generally out of LOS and near a lot of vehicles.

I'm glad to see some other positive reviews on support weapons, as I have found them to be immensely improved from 8th edition, especially D-cannons. Mid-table objectives mean the 24" range is less of an issue. An increase in the amount of obscuring terrain allows more options to stay out of line of sight. They also no longer get the -1 to hit from moving, and always get 3 shots against units of 6+ models since they are blast weapons. The only downside I have come across is they give up easy Bring it Down secondary objective points. I run mine with Expert Crafters and Masters of Concealment since each weapon becomes its own unit and, therefore, gets its own set of rerolls, and vehicles can't gain cover benefits from terrain pieces so that's the only way to get them a 3+ armor save. The 4++ stratagem frequently catches an opponent by surprise and an extra shooting phase from a surviving platform is definitely worth 1CP. All of a sudden those three lascannon/melta shots to feel confident about killing it have to become five or six.

The benefit to taking 4 Warlocks is then you can manifest both sides of a power - Protect and Jinx, for example. Only one of them will get the boosted range, of course, but that usually isn't a problem for the defensive side of the power. You can also protect the Farseer from shooting with a larger unit.

I wouldn't consider a larger Conclave a highly competitive choice, but it's not a terrible choice so long as you keep it safe.

I'm pretty sure that you can't cast both sides of a power in the same phase. You are only allowed to cast a power, other than smite, once per phase and when you cast that power you choose which aspect to cast and that is the only use of that power that phase.

The rule explicitly says a warlock conclave can cast both sides of a power in the same phase. Page 124 at the top.

Last I heard both sides were considered different powers, so both are possible.