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Oaka wrote: It depends on how it fits in your army, I guess. My Necron opponent is spending 140 points on a Doomstalker for a D6 shot weapon, and he can whiff on that gloriously. For the same cost, I'm sure he'd jump at the consistency of 2D3 shots where you can reroll two hits and two wounds. The d-cannon platforms have been stars for me as allies to a Coven army, since everything is relatively tough and in short range with the opponent.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
So a bit of a thought experiment if anyone wants to join in.
There's a 1250 point local single elimination league taking place whenever restrictions end and I was going to take my Eldar. I've not had the chance to play any low point games in 9th and was wondering if anyone had? This one is using incursion missions (the one for 1k games) and rule of two is in effect.
How would you build a list for that size of a game right now? I was thinking of going for a patrol that roughly looks like this below. Haven't picked exarch powers or the like yet so I welcome feedback. It's basically a scaled down version of my 2k list but with Dark Reapers slotted in to have a go at fire and fading into tanks. It is meant to be a casual league but knowing Eldar aren't strong right now I'd like at least a fighting chance. I have themed the army around aspect warriors as a result.
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots - Patrol Detachment HQ Farseer w/ Smite, Doom and Guide - Faolchu's Wing Spiritseer w/ Focus Will, Jinx/Protect - Warlord with seer of the shifting vector
Troops 5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch (Shredding fire, bladestorm or battle fortune?)
Fast 5 Warp Spiders w/ 2x Spinner Exarch (Web of Deceit) 5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch (Skilled Rider)
Heavy 3 War Walkers each w/ starcannon + AML 5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Exarch (Rain of Death)
Transport Wave Serpent w/ starcannons, shuriken cannon and spirit stones
That's my rough list anyway so it's under by a good few points so it's got wiggle room. Ideally, I think another Wave Serpent would make it way tougher but I am unsure what to drop for it. I could also switch to a battalion but that would be 165 points of troop tax which I don't know if the points size can afford.
Thoughts?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/14 15:33:10
Personally, I still only like vibros. They're nice long range, efficient shooting with the bonus of slowing down non fly units.
Shadow weavers are overpriced for what is basically a shuriken cannon and d-cannon range is too short on such a slow platform so can be played around. If the range was 36" or the platforms had fly they'd be great, of course YMMV.
Tyranid Horde wrote: So a bit of a thought experiment if anyone wants to join in.
There's a 1250 point local single elimination league taking place whenever restrictions end and I was going to take my Eldar. I've not had the chance to play any low point games in 9th and was wondering if anyone had? This one is using incursion missions (the one for 1k games) and rule of two is in effect.
How would you build a list for that size of a game right now? I was thinking of going for a patrol that roughly looks like this below. Haven't picked exarch powers or the like yet so I welcome feedback. It's basically a scaled down version of my 2k list but with Dark Reapers slotted in to have a go at fire and fading into tanks.
It is meant to be a casual league but knowing Eldar aren't strong right now I'd like at least a fighting chance. I have themed the army around aspect warriors as a result.
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots - Patrol Detachment
HQ Farseer w/ Smite, Doom and Guide - Faolchu's Wing
Spiritseer w/ Focus Will, Jinx/Protect - Warlord with seer of the shifting vector
Troops
5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch (Shredding fire, bladestorm or battle fortune?)
Fast
5 Warp Spiders w/ 2x Spinner Exarch (Web of Deceit)
5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch (Skilled Rider)
Heavy
3 War Walkers each w/ starcannon + AML
5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Exarch (Rain of Death)
Transport
Wave Serpent w/ starcannons, shuriken cannon and spirit stones
That's my rough list anyway so it's under by a good few points so it's got wiggle room. Ideally, I think another Wave Serpent would make it way tougher but I am unsure what to drop for it. I could also switch to a battalion but that would be 165 points of troop tax which I don't know if the points size can afford.
Thoughts?
I like the tricky maneuvering you have, but I think more guns... many more guns is better. Warlock over Spiritseer so you can seer council (can go either way I suppose) My guess is your max shooting with everything on the board takes out 10 primaris vs this list at about 20 primaris. or from greasing 1 tank to 2 tanks.
2 Patrols
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots
HQ Farseer w/ Smite, Doom and Guide - Faolchu's Wing & Singing Spear (Probably, Phoenix Gem instead)
Warlock w/ Jinx/Protect & Singing Spear - Warlord with seer of the shifting vector
Troops
5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch
5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch
Elites
5 Banshees Exarch w/ Executioner (rides in falcon, 20"+ charge range --->counter charge insurance)
Fast
3 vipers starcannon
2 vipers starcannon
Heavy
3 Vibrocannons
5 Dark Reapers Exarch w/ Fast Shot
1 Falcon - Pulse Laser and Starcannon and Spirit Stones
1 Falcon - Pulse Laser and Brightlance and Spirit Stones
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Argive wrote: I just noticed the War walker options for Heavy weapons are all 10pts cheaper...
Not sure if it it was mentioned but seems like an obvious mistake if they are flat 20 across everything else.
Guess GW has a shedload of war walkers stocked up now...
They just priced it as the walker is 60 and the shuriken cannons are 0 instead of pricing it at 40/10/10. It works out to be exactly the same as every other unit. It’s weird but much ado about nothing.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
2k
2k
Fast
5 Warp Spiders w/ 2x Spinner Exarch (Web of Deceit)
5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch (Skilled Rider)
Heavy
3 War Walkers each w/ starcannon + AML
5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Exarch (Rain of Death)
Transport
Wave Serpent w/ starcannons, shuriken cannon and spirit stones
That's my rough list anyway so it's under by a good few points so it's got wiggle room. Ideally, I think another Wave Serpent would make it way tougher but I am unsure what to drop for it. I could also switch to a battalion but that would be 165 points of troop tax which I don't know if the points size can afford.
Thoughts?
I like the general shape of it. The striking scorpions jump out at me as being a bit out of place. I'm not a huge fan of Ambush, personally. If you want to use these guys to camp objectives, you're probably better off with Stalker. If you want them to get into combat and hurt things, several other powers would do the job better, but I'm honestly kind of underwhelmed by their melee output. Howling banshees would do more damage, have a longer threat range, and would be a bit better at tying most targets up for a turn. That said, I mostly recommend banshees because they fill a similar role and because I like them.
Basically, I'd drop the scorpions. If that frees up points for a wave serpent, great. A serpent would give you more gun, much more durability, and a mobile unit that could jump on objectives. If dropping the scorpions doesn't get you enough points for a serpent, maybe consider...
* More dire avengers. You can Strategic Reserves several units for a single CP. I've been pleasantly surprised by how much work a couple squads of doomed shuriken fire in the right spot can do, plus they're obsec in a pinch.
* Banshees. As stated above, they're more killy than scorpions, faster than scorpions, and pretty good at tagging your opponent's shootiest unit for a turn. At 1250, your opponent is more likely to have a small number of important shooty units, so tagging one of them (if only to die in your opponent's next turn) can actually be pretty useful.
* More reapers. I"m guessing the current squad size is to fit the seers and avengers in with them, but you can play musical chairs on turn 1 or just put the avengers in reserves if needed. The reapers will probably be using the serpent as a turn 1 bunker and then never getting inside of it again, but a couple more reapers could really up your firepower. Plus, that would make the reapers a better target for LFR, Protect, and Guide if you decide your best bet is to castle up against a given opponent.
* More spears. I'm reluctant to make these guys too pricey given that you can't control how much BLOS terrain they'll have access to, but beefing them up would boost their synergy with LFR, Protect, and Guide just like it would the reapers.
Other random thoughts:
* You can get away with swapping the spirit seer for a warlock if you need a few extra points. He's pretty safe from having his head explode with Seer of the Shifting Vector.
* Regarding avenger loadouts... If the unit is small, you probably want Shredding Fire + double catapults on the exarch. If the unit is big, you want Bladestorm + double catapults. If you want to be cute, you can consider going shimmer shield + Defend and maaaaybe throwing on Battle Fortune. I've used that last one alongside Banshees a fair bit. It's probably not optimal, but you can charge the unit into the same target as the banshees and make them choose between stabbing your obsec avengers with the invul save or your damage dealing banshees, both units being -1 to hit. But again, probably go shredding fire or bladestorm.
* Heck yeah, Web of Deceit! That power has been very good to me this edition. Mostly as a way to fall back and shoot without "falling back."
Overall, I think your list looks pretty solid.
ATTENTION. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
Tyranid Horde wrote: So a bit of a thought experiment if anyone wants to join in.
There's a 1250 point local single elimination league taking place whenever restrictions end and I was going to take my Eldar. I've not had the chance to play any low point games in 9th and was wondering if anyone had? This one is using incursion missions (the one for 1k games) and rule of two is in effect.
How would you build a list for that size of a game right now? I was thinking of going for a patrol that roughly looks like this below. Haven't picked exarch powers or the like yet so I welcome feedback. It's basically a scaled down version of my 2k list but with Dark Reapers slotted in to have a go at fire and fading into tanks.
It is meant to be a casual league but knowing Eldar aren't strong right now I'd like at least a fighting chance. I have themed the army around aspect warriors as a result.
Expert Crafters/Masterful Shots - Patrol Detachment
HQ Farseer w/ Smite, Doom and Guide - Faolchu's Wing
Spiritseer w/ Focus Will, Jinx/Protect - Warlord with seer of the shifting vector
Troops
5 DA w/ 2x Catapult Exarch (Shredding fire, bladestorm or battle fortune?)
Fast
5 Warp Spiders w/ 2x Spinner Exarch (Web of Deceit)
5 Shining Spears w/ Exarch (Skilled Rider)
Heavy
3 War Walkers each w/ starcannon + AML
5 Dark Reapers w/ Tempest Exarch (Rain of Death)
Transport
Wave Serpent w/ starcannons, shuriken cannon and spirit stones
That's my rough list anyway so it's under by a good few points so it's got wiggle room. Ideally, I think another Wave Serpent would make it way tougher but I am unsure what to drop for it. I could also switch to a battalion but that would be 165 points of troop tax which I don't know if the points size can afford.
Thoughts?
Unfortunately a lot of the aspect warriors are pretty underwhelming and overpriced. Avengers are pretty decent with the price drop, spears are good counter punch units, hawks and spiders have great movement/tricks for playing the mission.
I'd take what you need from those units and supplement those with vehicles which are the craftworlds strength at the moment.
New to Eldar and to 9th ed, so sorry for the noob question - i'm putting my list together and wondering about my HQ choice(s).
I like the idea of having a good number of opportunities to cast psychic abilities from different areas on the table - was looking into farseers but I can't find the rules regarding whether they can join other units, particularly warlocks, in 9th edition?
No, they're all separate HQ units, can no longer join other units I'm afraid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As to your list Tyranid Horde, firstly I wouldn't assume that putting more wave serpents in your list will make it tougher - my experience it's the opposite. If you're playing any Imperium army (and that's probably 75% of your opponents right now), there will be a lot of melta doing the rounds. dropping from 1d6+2 damage to 1d6+1 is negligible. Going wide is the best defence we have for vehicles right now, especially with the change to Bring It Down (only 1cp for lil vehicles like walkers and vypers). The other is invuln saves and hiding out of LoS - the Wave serpent is plain bad in all these categories. If you must have transports, go with falcons as they're much more points efficient.
I'll also disagree with other posters about the scorpions - if they're part of your gameplan, they can be a good unit. They are great for Engage on All Fronts and Deploy Scramblers. They do almost nothing else though, unfortunately. I'd keep em cheap and stick the 5+ mortal wound exarch power on em and call it a day, if you're going for those secondaries. Really though, I think it's either them or the spiders, not both.
So yeah, more walkers or other small vehicles would be great.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/15 09:53:19
I had a potentially interesting idea around the while we stand we fight secondary. Namely a unit of swooping hawks. With their ability to deep strike/disappear off the board they should be an easy 5 pts plus great scramblers material late game once the opposition deployment zone has been thinned out.
I've posted the full list in the army list section, but I think it's a very useful little trick to help with secondaries.
kingheff wrote: I had a potentially interesting idea around the while we stand we fight secondary. Namely a unit of swooping hawks. With their ability to deep strike/disappear off the board they should be an easy 5 pts plus great scramblers material late game once the opposition deployment zone has been thinned out.
I've posted the full list in the army list section, but I think it's a very useful little trick to help with secondaries.
I played 2 games last weekend playing that secondary with Dark Reapers, a Lynx, and a unit of 3 War Walkers. I lost one full unit of War Walkers once out of the two games and didn't lose any of the others. I definitely think there is some merit to choose While We Stand We Fight.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
kingheff wrote: I had a potentially interesting idea around the while we stand we fight secondary. Namely a unit of swooping hawks. With their ability to deep strike/disappear off the board they should be an easy 5 pts plus great scramblers material late game once the opposition deployment zone has been thinned out.
I've posted the full list in the army list section, but I think it's a very useful little trick to help with secondaries.
I played 2 games last weekend playing that secondary with Dark Reapers, a Lynx, and a unit of 3 War Walkers. I lost one full unit of War Walkers once out of the two games and didn't lose any of the others. I definitely think there is some merit to choose While We Stand We Fight.
Heh, with the irony being that I changed my list because I didn't want two squads of three star cannon walkers to be my while we stand choices! I've always planned on having my choices able to hide (so characters really plus the hawks in this case). I'm wondering how you played it with your options being more easily targetable?
I think my option will have issues with a fast moving assault styled army. However, that is a general weakness my current builds have. I've not been able to build a solid take all comers list in 9th as of yet.
I'm finding reserve usage and Phantasm helps relieve some of the pressure as well as being willing and knowing when to sacrifice units. Dire Avengers and Vypers pushing out early, then reserves coming in later seems to spread out my opponents last weekend allowing my Lynx and Wave Serpent with Reapers to avoid being targeted. I threw away my War Walker unit by underestimating how much shooting the Silent King model would take and lost them to assault. I could have avoided the assault altogether had I not gotten over anxious trying to achieve Engage on all Fronts.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
Yeah, fast moving assault is the bane of gunlines in 9th. Which is often a problem since craftworlds shooting is our best option!
I've found move blocking with vypers to be pretty effective with my previous list so I'm hoping my vypers and wraithlords can do that in my new list.
I understand about the pressure to get engage points, sometimes patience is a tough virtue to maintain! I try to aim for 10-12 rather than sacrificing units trying to max it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/16 10:37:12
I agree that phantasm is crucial to our 9e playstyle. I refuse flanks pretty regularly now, and the tactic plays so well into our longrange firepower and mobility. For me it's gone from a sometimes-used strat to the single most important strat in our dear old codex.
grouchoben wrote: I agree that phantasm is crucial to our 9e playstyle. I refuse flanks pretty regularly now, and the tactic plays so well into our longrange firepower and mobility. For me it's gone from a sometimes-used strat to the single most important strat in our dear old codex.
Especially with the change to going first, it allows manipulation of six units really. If you've got six aggressive units you can deploy three on the front lines and three hidden. Pop phantasm and move three forward if you win and hide three if you lose.
Swooping Hawks & Baharroth - do people rate them? I rarely see people playing them but the ability to descend on objectives seems very useful - and the ability to re-ascend is very unique!
Be good to get some personal experience advice before I shell out on a unit.
Baharroth is not worth it, a squad of hawks or two can be pretty good to get to table quarters, scramblers and objectives. They should be weighed against scorpions, which are tougher and cheaper, but lack mobility (also hawks get more shots and the grenade pack, where scorpions need to charge, but when they do they get a good amount of s4 attacks and some mw, too).
I've just added a squad of hawks to my list for the express purpose of having them jump into the sky and hiding for while we stand we fight/deploy scramblers secondaries.
Hawks hit like a gentle breeze but they can be very useful as long as you don't want them to kill anything.
Cpt. Icanus wrote:Baharroth is not worth it, a squad of hawks or two can be pretty good to get to table quarters, scramblers and objectives. They should be weighed against scorpions, which are tougher and cheaper, but lack mobility (also hawks get more shots and the grenade pack, where scorpions need to charge, but when they do they get a good amount of s4 attacks and some mw, too).
I'm undecided on Scorpions. I've got a unit of 6 Fire Dragons with a falcon transport for decent firepower with good mobility. I HATE that you can't disembark after the vehicle moves now though - ridiculous.
Why do you say that about Baharroth?
kingheff wrote:I've just added a squad of hawks to my list for the express purpose of having them jump into the sky and hiding for while we stand we fight/deploy scramblers secondaries.
Hawks hit like a gentle breeze but they can be very useful as long as you don't want them to kill anything.
I quite like the idea of being able to drop onto an objective late in the game and steal it from an (ideally already weakened) enemy unit. That or plant them on an objective early and hold it until a more resilient unit arrives to protect it and then they can move along to the next.
I hear what you're saying about the guns but assault 4 means there are plenty of shots to fire - combine that with a successful Doom cast and you could be dishing out a fair few save rolls.
Biggest problem i'm finding with Eldar weaponry is that the infantry guns are short range, which is problematic in itself given that you don't really want your enemies getting within charging distance.
Even if your enemy doesn't want to get close - a unit of SM sm can safely sit 24" away and spray the hell out of me and unless I want to move away from my position I can't return fire.
Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
2k
2k
I've used Hawks for Deploy Scramblers and Engage on all Fronts. However, I've found I prefer Warp Spiders to fill that role due to better Save, ability to get -1 to hit, and Web of Deceit to move anywhere on the table once per game. With all that, I felt it was worth the extra 25 or so points.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
mokoshkana wrote: Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
The hawk squad is 117 points (the list is designed to have lots of cheap stuff to make them one of the three most expensive) so losing out on that isn't really a big loss. They're in the list only for the secondaries they can help me score which is something that really needs to be thought about in list design these days.
@Crafter91 I use very little infantry at the moment for that reason, my lists tend to be very vehicle heavy.
mokoshkana wrote: Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
The hawk squad is 117 points (the list is designed to have lots of cheap stuff to make them one of the three most expensive) so losing out on that isn't really a big loss. They're in the list only for the secondaries they can help me score which is something that really needs to be thought about in list design these days.
@Crafter91 I use very little infantry at the moment for that reason, my lists tend to be very vehicle heavy.
Honestly, I think you could achieve the same thing with min Jetbike squads. Just as fast, hit about the same (more penetration potential at a shorter range) for half the cost.
We mortals are but shadows and dust...
6k
:harlequin: 2k
2k
2k
mokoshkana wrote: Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
The hawk squad is 117 points (the list is designed to have lots of cheap stuff to make them one of the three most expensive) so losing out on that isn't really a big loss. They're in the list only for the secondaries they can help me score which is something that really needs to be thought about in list design these days.
@Crafter91 I use very little infantry at the moment for that reason, my lists tend to be very vehicle heavy.
Honestly, I think you could achieve the same thing with min Jetbike squads. Just as fast, hit about the same (more penetration potential at a shorter range) for half the cost.
They're not infantry and they wouldn't count as one of my three most expensive units so whilst I think min squads of windriders are good (though I prefer vypers personally) they are unable to replicate the job I have in mind for this list which I'll put below for illustration purposes.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Small change to Power Levels. 5 Dire Avengers are now 2 PL. In my current list, I can run 4 x 5 Dire Avengers (8 PL) and spend 1 CP to put all of them in Strategic Reserves.
No earth shattering, thought provoking quote. I'm just someone who was introduced to 40K in the late 80's and it's become a lifelong hobby.
mokoshkana wrote: Hawks being one of your most expensive units means you are paying a lot for nothing in return. If you are hiding them, then they aren't shooting. If they are on the board, they are durable like a wet paper bag, so they will fold to anything that looks at them.
A ten man squad is going to do about 7 wounds to MEQ and then they will be stuck on the table for a counter attack. Tack on the avg one MW from grenade pack, and they've managed to kill 4 primaris, which means the squad is still alive.
The hawk squad is 117 points (the list is designed to have lots of cheap stuff to make them one of the three most expensive) so losing out on that isn't really a big loss. They're in the list only for the secondaries they can help me score which is something that really needs to be thought about in list design these days.
@Crafter91 I use very little infantry at the moment for that reason, my lists tend to be very vehicle heavy.
Honestly, I think you could achieve the same thing with min Jetbike squads. Just as fast, hit about the same (more penetration potential at a shorter range) for half the cost.
They're not infantry and they wouldn't count as one of my three most expensive units so whilst I think min squads of windriders are good (though I prefer vypers personally) they are unable to replicate the job I have in mind for this list which I'll put below for illustration purposes.
AngryAngel80 wrote: I don't know, when I see awesome rules, I'm like " Baby, your rules looking so fine. Maybe I gotta add you to my first strike battalion eh ? "
Eldar- 4436 pts
6k
2k
2k 
Adeptus Mechanicus 
