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Here's the list I was thinking of doing, so I don't have to choose between Argent Shroud or Bloody Rose:
Spoiler:
2000pt list:
Hand of the Emperor
Brigade - AS
Celestine
Canoness - Rod of Office, Power Sword, Boltgun, Warlord +1 Miracle Dice WLT
Canoness - Brazier of Holy Fire, Bolt, Chainsword
BSSx6 - Combi-Flamer, 2x Meltagun
Domx2 - Combi-Flamer, 4x Meltagun
Dom - 4x Stormbolter
Retx3 - Combi-Melta, 4x HF
Imagifier - Heroine in the Making (+1 to SoF), Book of St Lucius
Hospitalier
Hospitalier
Outrider Detachment - Bloody Rose
Canoness, Open the Reliquary, Beneficence, Bolt Pistol, Brazier of Holy Flame
Seraphimx2: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, 2x 2x Inferno Pistols
Seraphimx1: Plasma Pistol, Power Sword, 2x 2x Hand Flamer
Zephyrim Squad: 10x Power Swords, Pennant
List Total: 1997, 14cp
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
MrMoustaffa wrote: So with Valorous heart, Im thinking of using the idea of the old guard tactic of a "melta hedge", except it's taken to a logical extreme guard players could never dream of. I remember it mainly being a thing in older editions as that was the age of vehicles capable of being one shot, but the idea still exists in 8th, but now mainly as plasma spam.
The idea of the melta hedge was simple, spam infantry, spam meltas. For guard it was a way to make sure opponents didn't just ignore your screen of guardsmen and only go after the tanks and artillery. With meltas, guardsmen were a threat, but still very cheap, even at 15 squads, your meltas added up to the cost of a single tank. The opponent had two choices.
1.ignore guardsmen, go after the tanks. This allowed guardsmen to aggressively push up the table and hedge in enemy vehicles. The guardsmen usually wouldn't be hitting things turn one, but by 2 and 3, enemy tanks rapidly ran out of room to maneuver as guardsmen hedged them in and started taking potshots. Yes, half the shots missed and not all got through, but you usually had 10-20 meltas across the table backed up by deepstriking stormtroopers with melta (seraphim for us) and you still had artillery and tanks. Not much could escape that for long.
2. Go after the guardsmen. Congratulations, you are now killing guardsmen, my tanks are mostly safe and I will do what I do best. Guard player at this point does tried and true "guess I'll just shoot him" strategy and usually has enough guardsmen to grab objectives in mop up phase of game.
The problem is meltas are more expensive now, and they add up fast. If you want to spam meltas, and seraphim, and dominons, and retributors, it gets expensive really quick and you're probably not taking exorcists at that point. I feel Celestine is a must and that doesn't help either. So you either double down on infantry entirely and consider retributors as your tanks, leaving you at the mercy of range, or you sacrifice retributors to take exorcists, which gives lascannons and other AP 3 multidamage weapons a reason for existing.
The other issue is do you splurge for simulacrums and cherubs? If you are spamming infantry and relying on this idea that a lone survivor or two from a squad can seriously damage targets, is the ability to give a unit roll 2d6, pick highest for MD that it can use on itself without eating your single freebie MD worth the cost of a single sister? This is a genuine question because every sister in this list will matter. A 10 woman squad with combimelta/melta is 119, simulcrum/cherub 129. Guard are paying roughly that for a Russ now.
I'm not entirely sure, I need to get some games in and see which theories hold up and which dont. Not having a way to get exorcists an invuln higher than a 6+ is a glaring weakness just begging to be exploited by weapons with nothing better to do. But at the same time you really need something with a threat radius greater than 30", even with a horde of sisters running up the board and seraphim dropping in. I've played enough hammer and anvil as guard to know that despite what people may claim, 48" and up weapon ranges absolutely have a purpose and are not to be underestimated. Given that a 1/3 of deployments involve coming at each other from short edges, a way to reach out and hit long range targets is a must. Otherwise guard will be an incredibly hard counter because their bread and butter are weapons that ignore VH strengths. Our weapons either have 0 ap and don't care, or usually ap3, and don't care. Your Exorcists will be murdered at range by basilisk fire, the return fire you do get to do will kill 1-2 guard tanks, and as you eventually close the distance the guard player, with proper play, can shred your sisters with efficient FRFSRF. With retributors, you've got no return fire turn 1 against a guard player turtled up, and the retributors are still at the mercy of basilisks, but can be protected by cover or overlapping Celestine and the WLT for a 4++/6+++. Every list will have a hard counter of course, but just something to consider with VH.
And this is where we either ally for range or go for zephirims. We have no way of getting distant targets and targets hidden from LoS by just shooting and thats why we will be probably using 2 units of zephirims + 3 of seraphim if we want to go mono build, to just rush them. With celestine and valorous hearth they are mobile and durable.This is why i believe that VH is second best Order for zephirims after BR. You are just using it as disruption and harassment tool instead of hammer.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
Interestingly, 100 S5 D2 shots will kill an Exorcist (hitting on 3s) even if it's Valorous Heart.
Well yeah. What it would do vs non one? Especially in terrain vh basically halves damage those do.
If can get over 100 hb shots for sub-1000 pts but at that point i'm not fretting too much if it slags 170 pts tank.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Crazyterran wrote: Here's the list I was thinking of doing, so I don't have to choose between Argent Shroud or Bloody Rose:
Not quaranteed but think zephryms were elite so need another fa.
Btw point in favour of simulcraeum plus seraphim. Easier to generate 6 act of fate in 1 turn for 3+d3 vp. That can be big
There's two inferno pistol squads and one handflamer squad, so there's 3 FA.
I don't think Seraphim Squads can take Simulacrums, I think it's just the ground pounders.
warboss wrote: Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
Interestingly, 100 S5 D2 shots will kill an Exorcist (hitting on 3s) even if it's Valorous Heart.
Well yeah. What it would do vs non one? Especially in terrain vh basically halves damage those do.
It would also slag it?
I mean, what more do you want? You can only kill an Exorcist so many times. And yeah, in terrain, if you're 50% obscured, and not playing Imperial Fists who ignore cover anyways.
Interestingly, 100 S5 D2 shots will kill an Exorcist (hitting on 3s) even if it's Valorous Heart.
Well yeah. What it would do vs non one? Especially in terrain vh basically halves damage those do.
It would also slag it?
I mean, what more do you want? You can only kill an Exorcist so many times. And yeah, in terrain, if you're 50% obscured, and not playing Imperial Fists who ignore cover anyways.
Slag but lot faster. So the vh is worth it even if tank dies. You aren't losing other vehicles
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 19:50:26
I'm not worrying about tanks. If they shoot at tanks they aren't shooting at infantry. If they shoot at infantry they ain't shooting tanks. And then the ones they don't shoot hurts them.
tneva82 wrote: I'm not worrying about tanks. If they shoot at tanks they aren't shooting at infantry. If they shoot at infantry they ain't shooting tanks. And then the ones they don't shoot hurts them.
Everyone else must play mysterious opponents who don't bring anti-tank guns or anti-troop guns. I guess I haven't seen much of the new marines, but around my meta, things like Burst Cannons, Heavy Bolters, and Autocannons are for killing infantry/heavy infantry, and things like Lascannons and Heavy Laser Destroyers are for tanks.
Well here as generally everybody and their kitchen sink has inv save anything over -2 is wasted vs big targets like tanks while many(especially numarines) can bring weapons that shoot like 10 times, wound all vehiles on 5, -2 and damage 2. Which incidentally scores about 3 times damage vs t8 5++ base vine target.
Even against more ideal t8 no inv it's 1.3 vs tad under 3. While sucking against infantrv
Why bring dedicated weapons when you can bring weapons that do both well and even vs dedicated only barely loses for points
8th ed is edition you don"' want low rof high s high ap shots for at
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 20:07:39
tneva82 wrote: Well here as generally everybody and their kitchen sink has inv save anything over -2 is wasted vs big targets like tanks while many(especially numarines) can bring weapons that shoot like 10 times, wound all vehiles on 5, -2 and damage 2. Which incidentally scores about 3 times damage vs t8 5++ base vine target.
Even against more ideal t8 no inv it's 1.3 vs tad under 3. While sucking against infantrv
Why bring dedicated weapons when you can bring weapons that do both well and even vs dedicated only barely loses for points
8th ed is edition you don"' want low rof high s high ap shots for at
It might help to talk about what weapon you're meaning when you say "shoot 10 times, wound all vehicles on 5s, -2, and Damage 2" because that weapon is probably more expensive than a lascannon.
How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.
Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
tneva82 wrote: Well here as generally everybody and their kitchen sink has inv save anything over -2 is wasted vs big targets like tanks while many(especially numarines) can bring weapons that shoot like 10 times, wound all vehiles on 5, -2 and damage 2. Which incidentally scores about 3 times damage vs t8 5++ base vine target.
Even against more ideal t8 no inv it's 1.3 vs tad under 3. While sucking against infantrv
Why bring dedicated weapons when you can bring weapons that do both well and even vs dedicated only barely loses for points
8th ed is edition you don"' want low rof high s high ap shots for at
It might help to talk about what weapon you're meaning when you say "shoot 10 times, wound all vehicles on 5s, -2, and Damage 2" because that weapon is probably more expensive than a lascannon.
Imperial fist thunderfirecannon, storm cannon aray(literaly h10 s7 ap-2 d2/ imperial fists twin assault cannons imperial fist heavy onslaught gatling cannon...man I got sad when i started checking and found all of those, and it was only 5 min, barely scratching those.
Tel11 wrote:How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.
Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
15 is enough. otherwise you will probably not have any meaningful way of spending them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/10 20:54:41
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
Rynner wrote: 15 should be fine. The list I'm most likely bringing to LVO will have between 13-14 cp.
The bigger issue is Miracle dice. At a certain point you wind up having way more than you'll ever spend.
Unlikely. Remember about save modification stratagem, resurrect character stratagem. First one will on average require 2 dices, second one you will likely want to have 3 to spare. And given how cheap in cp they are and how game changing can be you should use them often. MOMENT OF GRACE will be our most spamed stratagem. In many cases its better than command reroll.
1. „Stab the shoty, shot the staby”
2. „Who bails, fails.”
3. „Act to win yourself and not for your opponent to lose.”
4. „If in dilemma between damage and durability, chose third- speed.”
5. „Focus fire.”
Melta BSS and Celestines join the tanky Canonnes, Priest, and one of each Elite Character in the Rhinos and go hunting.
Each of these units can Holy Trinity keeping them pretty versatile.
Everything else is pretty self explanatory.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I'm really, really liking the idea of the tanky Cannoness. 2+/4++/5+++ , ignores AP -1/-2, only wounded on a 4+, that can regen D3 a turn and come back to life via CP.
Yes please. My necrons wish they can access such reiliency.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/11 00:15:56
At that point a single CP or MD to not fail the last armor save when you're down to 2 HP could save the tank and make your opponent really sad that he didn't kill a bunch of infantry instead.
(Or if you're me, you probably fail 10+ of those armor saves because I can't roll :( )
not 100% sold on this lsit but it seems like it gives me lots of toys to play with
Absolutely. Should be pretty easy to get up and running, too. Sounds like you probably already have everything except the Mortifiers. You going to convert them up or wait for the kits?
not 100% sold on this lsit but it seems like it gives me lots of toys to play with
Absolutely. Should be pretty easy to get up and running, too. Sounds like you probably already have everything except the Mortifiers. You going to convert them up or wait for the kits?
actually I don't have anything, I've been holding off getting into sisters until they where plastic (I take the bus to get around and carting around a buncha metal minis would be a pain) but yeah, by my calc I'll need 6 sisters boxes, 3 exorcist kits, another cannoness, celestine *edits christmas list* and... I'm gonna pessimisticly assume the pentinet engines/mortificers are sold 1 to a box so need 3 of those.
I figure I can space the purchases out over a 2 month period and figure on having the entire army assmbled by april. I'm thinking sisters will be good for a mix of contrast and normal paint. partiuclarly as I'm going with white armor. (not sure If I want blue or red robes yet)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/11 04:18:08
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Salted Diamond wrote: Do Imagifiers, Dialogus, and Hospitallars take up slots? I know they did in the Beta, but just want to make sure.
Yes they do. Repentia superior,arco flagelants and geminia don't if they meet requirement(not hard to guess which units you need to include to have them slot free)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tel11 wrote: How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.
Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
I'm thinking 2 battallions or brigade should be enough. At least enough to try. Maybe brigade+1CP one but that's more of getting bloody rose for zephyr etc than CP.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With new CA maelstrom got interesting twist where you use deck of 18 cards you select. While you can build it after seeing opponent list I expect most of the time it\s similar every time. With Necrons I had easier time building list but sisters actually have good faction goals so had harder time trimming deck...Anyway here\s what I came up with:
Secure 1-6. Easy ones generally and sisters are good at board control I think with large numbers
Defend 1-6: As above. Generally for me objective missions are the bread and butter. New rules on maelstrom also gives more control as well and less of "the one opponent is swarming over is the one I need to defend" issues.
That dealt 12 cards. For remaining 6 I came up with the blood of martyrs(things die. Period), trust in emperor(with beacon of faith I'm already doing 2 and if I can't kill 1 unit at least....), supremacy(again scoring objectives should be relatively easy with sisters), overwhelming firepower(most of casualties I expect to do with guns), leap of faith(this is easy. And with good spread of simulcraums and cherbus even that 6 acts of faith in one turn for whopping 3+d3(so flat 5 generally here) isn't unreasonable. Scoring 5 at once is pretty big and might be worth sacrificing cherubs at once even just to get random bolter shots auto hit if nothing else...) and no prisoners for additional killing based that can also be done with shooting.
Anybody else has given any thought on this? Think above is fairly balanced one that should play on sister defence. possible swaps are witch hunter especially vs thousand sons and grey knights. And with Inquisitor allies master of the warp becomes easy.
Actually looking forward to try the new maelstrom missions.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/11 07:29:48
Anyone else trying to do lists on battlescribe but there are some missing options?? I can't see Arco Flagellants anywhere on there. And I can't seem to give my cannonness the 9 inch aura rod thing.
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone else trying to do lists on battlescribe but there are some missing options?? I can't see Arco Flagellants anywhere on there. And I can't seem to give my cannonness the 9 inch aura rod thing.
For aura thing you mean rod of office you get with power weapon/bolt gun? For that at least on PC you need to first give bolt gun with the CHECKBOX(not the ranged option select options) and power sword. IF you give power sword and then one of the radio button bolt guns it doesn't work. Really sucky system. No idea why they did it like this. Hopefully they improve it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/11 07:48:06
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone else trying to do lists on battlescribe but there are some missing options?? I can't see Arco Flagellants anywhere on there. And I can't seem to give my cannonness the 9 inch aura rod thing.
About the canoness: If you equip her with boltgun and powersword, the rod appears at the top of her options.
The Arco-flaggelants (and a few other options) dissapear if you add a Missionary to your list. That seems like a bug to me :-D
Rogerio134134 wrote: Anyone else trying to do lists on battlescribe but there are some missing options?? I can't see Arco Flagellants anywhere on there. And I can't seem to give my cannonness the 9 inch aura rod thing.
About the canoness: If you equip her with boltgun and powersword, the rod appears at the top of her options.
The Arco-flaggelants (and a few other options) dissapear if you add a Missionary to your list. That seems like a bug to me :-D
Check above for uncategorized. At least I got the repentia there when I added repentia superior. This way they don't take elite slot. Guess BS doesn't support them being in elite category AND not take slot if other unit present so they instead have unit in category X dissapear and in category Y appear if another unit is in list.
And bolt gun specifically need to be checkbox one and not radio button one on desktop version
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/11 07:49:42
Cheers guys I've got it now, just trying to work out the rough points of the boxed set and planning my next purchase when they get released in January! Probably pick up another box of battle sisters to start off with.
Tad over 400 pts for the boxed set IF you go for wysiwyg(but atm illegal) loadout for the canones(power sword, plasma pistol, rod. Legally you would neeed boltgun rather than plasma pistol but I'm 100% sure GW will errata that configuration to be legal).
Think you'll need bit more than 1 squad If you are starting small 2 boxes of basic sisters, imagifier, another canoness or missionary and exorcist would be my route to go. Seraphim for special pistols but they probably are wave 2 releases so not coming in january.