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Made in au
Calm Celestian




Tel11 wrote:
How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.

Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
Depending on what you're sacrificing, it may be better to go Brigade/Battalion. I've had enough games where I've found myself spending CPs I don't have to spare with the Codex, and our ability to do stuff falls off significantly when we run out.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2019/12/11 08:12:29


   
Made in ie
Battleship Captain





Lammia wrote:
Tel11 wrote:
How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.

Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
Depending on what you're sacrificing, it may be better to go Brigade/Battalion. I've had enough games where I've found myself spending CPs I don't have to spare with the Codex, and our ability to do stuff falls off significantly when we run out.


It really depends on how your game is going I've found. A lot of our strats feel like contingency plans. Like "whoops, repentia fluffed, activate mortal wounds on death/extra attack" or "exorcist fluffes its number of shots, reroll" or "canonnes got kelermorph'd, better resurrect her". Given how consistant the army can roll via Moment Of Grace and MD and normal CP rerolls I feel like you're generally wanting CPs as an insurance policy rather than what we rely on to work.


 
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




 Sim-Life wrote:
Lammia wrote:
Tel11 wrote:
How much CP will the army need to function? I have two armies in battle scribe, one is a brigade with more tools to use, and the other is brigade + battalion that loses tools to get 5 more CP.

Basicly, to those who've actually played the new DeX, is 15CP enough to run them, or do we really need 20?
Depending on what you're sacrificing, it may be better to go Brigade/Battalion. I've had enough games where I've found myself spending CPs I don't have to spare with the Codex, and our ability to do stuff falls off significantly when we run out.


It really depends on how your game is going I've found. A lot of our strats feel like contingency plans. Like "whoops, repentia fluffed, activate mortal wounds on death/extra attack" or "exorcist fluffes its number of shots, reroll" or "canonnes got kelermorph'd, better resurrect her". Given how consistant the army can roll via Moment Of Grace and MD and normal CP rerolls I feel like you're generally wanting CPs as an insurance policy rather than what we rely on to work.
In the case of Devasting Refrain, you have to preempt a bad roll on the Exorcist...

But I've found 13 CPs(15) don't last as long as we actually want them too.

   
Made in gb
Dakka Veteran





tneva82 wrote:
Tad over 400 pts for the boxed set IF you go for wysiwyg(but atm illegal) loadout for the canones(power sword, plasma pistol, rod. Legally you would neeed boltgun rather than plasma pistol but I'm 100% sure GW will errata that configuration to be legal).

Think you'll need bit more than 1 squad If you are starting small 2 boxes of basic sisters, imagifier, another canoness or missionary and exorcist would be my route to go. Seraphim for special pistols but they probably are wave 2 releases so not coming in january.


I'm thinking at least 2 more boxes of Sisters to be able to run the 6 troops choices (would have been nice to have a different troops option but that's fine). Maybe another to build up with other special weapons an use as whatever is required at the time. I've got the BSF space-pope for a 2nd HQ, but think converting up some dishevelled priests from the Flagellants kit could be fun. I'm a big fan of both the new vehicles, but might wait and see how the new Rhino comes out (or if it's just a topless option for the other 2 tanks) before getting any. Considering modding the Seraphim in the starter box for Inferno Pistols (as a BA player with lots of Death Company, I've got a few spare) but not sure yet. Would like to bulk out my Repentia's but thinking the new box will be a squad of 9 and a whip lady, so looking at 3rd party options. Would like more Penitent Engines, or the Sister ones (Mortifiers?) but worry they'll be expensive to build a squad of them. Other than that, I'm looking at options for Crusaders and Death Cult Assassins, just because I like all the rabble.

Take a look at what I've been painting and modelling: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/725222.page 
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Denver, CO, USA

Here's a question for all that might help guide my thinking. Assume a battalion is the default, since our HQ is solid and our Troops pretty adaptable...

Which Orders are the strongest candidates for dropping down to a Vanguard, Spearhead, etc... that is, which Orders mainly buff an Elite, Fast, or Heavy while doing less for Troops?

Likewise, which Orders are the strongest candidates for moving up to a Brigade, that is, their Conviction buffs multiple battlefield roles, creates new opportunities for all those extra Troops, can merit an extra Canoness, etc.?

   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 MacPhail wrote:
Here's a question for all that might help guide my thinking. Assume a battalion is the default, since our HQ is solid and our Troops pretty adaptable...

Which Orders are the strongest candidates for dropping down to a Vanguard, Spearhead, etc... that is, which Orders mainly buff an Elite, Fast, or Heavy while doing less for Troops?

Likewise, which Orders are the strongest candidates for moving up to a Brigade, that is, their Conviction buffs multiple battlefield roles, creates new opportunities for all those extra Troops, can merit an extra Canoness, etc.?


Vanquard: Bloody rose. Zephyr, repentia...Close combat festival.
Spearhead: Retributors benefit from argent shroud or valorous heart. Exorcist valorous heart.
Outrider: Dominions shroud or valorous heart both work nicely. Seraphim I think bloody rose(extra AP for pistols).

For brigade shroud and valorous heart would be my go-to. Generally those 2 are pretty darn good for any detachment barring h2h choppity chop units.

My .02

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/11 13:14:59


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




 MacPhail wrote:
Here's a question for all that might help guide my thinking. Assume a battalion is the default, since our HQ is solid and our Troops pretty adaptable...

Which Orders are the strongest candidates for dropping down to a Vanguard, Spearhead, etc... that is, which Orders mainly buff an Elite, Fast, or Heavy while doing less for Troops?

Likewise, which Orders are the strongest candidates for moving up to a Brigade, that is, their Conviction buffs multiple battlefield roles, creates new opportunities for all those extra Troops, can merit an extra Canoness, etc.?
Bloody Rose probably works best as a Vanguard and I could see a case for a Ebon Chalice Spearhead (If you have plans to gain all the Miracle Dice.)

Valorous Heart and Argent Shroud are the obvious choices for a Brigade and I don't think the others do enough enough to support that investment.

   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






tneva82 wrote:
 MacPhail wrote:
Here's a question for all that might help guide my thinking. Assume a battalion is the default, since our HQ is solid and our Troops pretty adaptable...

Which Orders are the strongest candidates for dropping down to a Vanguard, Spearhead, etc... that is, which Orders mainly buff an Elite, Fast, or Heavy while doing less for Troops?

Likewise, which Orders are the strongest candidates for moving up to a Brigade, that is, their Conviction buffs multiple battlefield roles, creates new opportunities for all those extra Troops, can merit an extra Canoness, etc.?


Vanquard: Bloody rose. Zephyr, repentia...Close combat festival.
Spearhead: Retributors benefit from argent shroud or valorous heart. Exorcist valorous heart.
Outrider: Dominions shroud or valorous heart both work nicely. Seraphim I think bloody rose(extra AP for pistols).

For brigade shroud and valorous heart would be my go-to. Generally those 2 are pretty darn good for any detachment barring h2h choppity chop units.

My .02


While I agree BR works best for a vanguard, I also think it is the single most CP-hungry order, because typically that's how you get functional close combat in 8th: Bring a bunch of units, get 1 unit in where it needs to be, spend all your CP on making that unit fight twice with bonus attacks and deal mortal wounds when they die etc etc etc so you kill like 750 points of your opponent's army with that one unit.

In general, I think Sisters are one of the least CP intensive armies out there and honestly I think if you had a good miracle dice engine setup you could make them work with 9CP (battalion+1 other detachment). There's no super duper necessary relics/WL traits that you HAVE to have, there's no units that just don't function unless you use their special stratagem every turn.

Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart would be the go-tos in my book for a Brigade army setup, the basic sisters squads there seem like they'd be aces. I think for Martyred Lady and Sacred Rose you'd want to be running bigger squads so a battalion would be better. Bloody Rose almost certainly wants to bring a battalion of Val Heart or Argent Shroud and then use them as a battery to fuel the BR stuff which would be in a vanguard.

Ebon chalice...the only thing I'd think to use them for is like a trio of exorcists parked near the triumph for super miracle dice generation, so I guess they would like to be a spearhead.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Well bloody rose stratagem is 1CP and not neccessarily even needed all the time. And while certainly there's the 3CP fight twice for repentia again it might not be needed and sometime scan be even bad when you end up killing too much and being open to shooting. And on some armies you can be happy with just being in combat.

But certainly something to keep in mind. Other orders for zephyr's and repentia? Well valorous heart is 100% useless(7+ armour. lol) for repentia so not that. Ebon chalice could be useful for those longbomb charges out of deep strikes though for only one unit. Shroud...Well zephyr's likely coming out of DS. Repentia could benefit if they aren't running in rhino. Generally I don't see any except bloody rose that really helps the choppity chop units. I would rather just not use the 3CP stratagem cutting down on CP exhaustion.


2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






tneva82 wrote:
Well bloody rose stratagem is 1CP and not neccessarily even needed all the time. And while certainly there's the 3CP fight twice for repentia again it might not be needed and sometime scan be even bad when you end up killing too much and being open to shooting. And on some armies you can be happy with just being in combat.

But certainly something to keep in mind. Other orders for zephyr's and repentia? Well valorous heart is 100% useless(7+ armour. lol) for repentia so not that. Ebon chalice could be useful for those longbomb charges out of deep strikes though for only one unit. Shroud...Well zephyr's likely coming out of DS. Repentia could benefit if they aren't running in rhino. Generally I don't see any except bloody rose that really helps the choppity chop units. I would rather just not use the 3CP stratagem cutting down on CP exhaustion.



In my experience, being in combat in 8th offers basically no safety at all. Leaving units alive means your close combat unit dies for nothing, and it's at the point where a basic spess mehrine with a gun that shoots out to 30" can deal more damage to you if you charge into him than if you just let him keep gaking out bolt shots at you from cover.

So basically, if I have a fight twice stratagem, I'm likely to use it unless I only have a few scattered models or I'm really actually safe (like I've somehow surrounded a rhino).

Tear them down then fight twice with +1 to wound is 100% what I'd be trying to do with bloody rose. You don't need to have CPs left if you've taken out a huge chunk of the enemy army.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Tripoint

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba








Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.

The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in gb
Deranged Necron Destroyer




the_scotsman wrote:


Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.

The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.


You lose the four repentia before you get to swing again anyway though?
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





4 primaris marines are hardly worth 3/4 cp though...if that's best i can come up with for cp it's very inefficient. I don't have dozens and dozens of cp to kill primaris at the rate of primaris per cp especially just to save after they whiffed big time if they failed to wipe out squad anyway.

Better use for fight twice is tripoint something. That is worth cp. Not 4 primaris

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Springfield, VA

Just to answer the CP question, I use 20 and I usually burn through them by Turn 3.

Some of our stratagems are reactive, but when they're used they're GOOD. Like "Divine Intervention" or "Moment of Grace". Both of those have been super useful for me to recycle Miracle Dice and still do some pretty miraculous things.

Others, though, are simply fantastic. Blessed Bolts, the advance-and-charge one, the fall-back-and-act-normally one, Storm of Retribution, the one that lets you reroll one of your Sacred Rites (since I roll and take 2), all that stuff eats my CP.
   
Made in ca
Resolute Ultramarine Honor Guard






Vancouver, BC

I dunno, I like Outrider/Seraphim for the Bloody Rose as well, especially if you are running a Brigade of another order. so after they drop and melta something and shoot something else, they can charge and clean up. Or charge in and help support the Zephyrs, and get closer to more enemies for the next turn (should they survive, but if they are shooting your Seraphim, they aren't shooting something else!)

 warboss wrote:
Is there a permanent stickied thread for Chaos players to complain every time someone/anyone gets models or rules besides them? If not, there should be.
 
   
Made in us
Esteemed Veteran Space Marine



Ottawa

the_scotsman wrote:


Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.

The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.


You don't tripoint the unit you're charging, I thought. You pile in, tag, and consolidate around an adjacent unit, right?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/11 16:50:24


 
   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Lemondish wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.

The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.


You don't tripoint the unit you're charging, I thought. You pile in, tag, and consolidate around an adjacent unit, right?


You could, but unless you're talking about vehicles, most space marine gunline units can perform ninja taekwondo and make the same number of attacks as an ork choppa boy. When you tag them, you just eat 18 S4 Ap- melee attacks. This is fine if you're a unit with some durability or are cheap and disposable enough that stopping that unit from shooting is worth the squad's death over two rounds, like most glass cannon melee units aren't, but we are talking about repentia.

And yeah, I'll stop talking exclusively about the matchup vs Space Marines when they stop making up 75% of the playerbase at the competitive level :/

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Hanford, CA, AKA The Eye of Terror

the_scotsman wrote:
Lemondish wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:


Believe me, dude, I've been playing melee armies since the start of the edition, I know. Tripointing is something I can do with Wyches and other chaff type melee units. If I charge 8 repentia into 10 Primaris marines and kill 6 of them, I can either tripoint them and lose 4 of my repentia to the return swings, or I can fight again, wipe them out, and tag a few more units with the pile in to force them to fall back on my turn.

The strategy of "tripoint a guy, keep your melee unit safe for a turn, and fight again next turn" does not work with shock assault marines running around.


You don't tripoint the unit you're charging, I thought. You pile in, tag, and consolidate around an adjacent unit, right?


You could, but unless you're talking about vehicles, most space marine gunline units can perform ninja taekwondo and make the same number of attacks as an ork choppa boy. When you tag them, you just eat 18 S4 Ap- melee attacks. This is fine if you're a unit with some durability or are cheap and disposable enough that stopping that unit from shooting is worth the squad's death over two rounds, like most glass cannon melee units aren't, but we are talking about repentia.

And yeah, I'll stop talking exclusively about the matchup vs Space Marines when they stop making up 75% of the playerbase at the competitive level :/


I think putting marines as the baseline is the best idea. They are the only generalist army that is a threat in close combat and they are TOUGH. If you're throwing repentia at guardsman you're wasting them. If you're throwing them at Banshees or Wyches they are likely going to get hurt real quick.

I think its funny that sisters are an army that would rather use its pistols in CC than make normal attacks!

17,000 points (Valhallan)
10,000 points
6,000 points (Order of Our Martyred Lady)
Proud Countess of House Terryn hosting 7 Knights, 2 Dominus Knights, and 8 Armigers
Stormcast Eternals: 7,000 points
"Remember, Orks are weak and cowardly, they are easily beat in close combat and their tusks, while menacing, can easily be pulled out with a sharp tug"

-Imperial Guard Uplifting Primer 
   
Made in us
Ragin' Ork Dreadnought




the_scotsman wrote:
Waaaghpower wrote:
Played a game today, so I have some real experience instead of just personal theorycrafting:
Triumph underperformed pretty badly. The extra Miracle Dice was handy, but I'd have been better off ditching her and shaving points elsewhere to get another Battalion.

Celestine still does work, and her significantly improved Warlord Trait makes her a good choice for Warlord.


So, you took Celestine and the Triumph in the same list?

Yes. I recognize that this isn't the most tactically sound decision since they're both expensive centerpiece models, but I wanted to get a feel for how they both played and it was an experimental practice game.
   
Made in au
Calm Celestian




the_scotsman wrote:

While I agree BR works best for a vanguard, I also think it is the single most CP-hungry order, because typically that's how you get functional close combat in 8th: Bring a bunch of units, get 1 unit in where it needs to be, spend all your CP on making that unit fight twice with bonus attacks and deal mortal wounds when they die etc etc etc so you kill like 750 points of your opponent's army with that one unit.

In general, I think Sisters are one of the least CP intensive armies out there and honestly I think if you had a good miracle dice engine setup you could make them work with 9CP (battalion+1 other detachment). There's no super duper necessary relics/WL traits that you HAVE to have, there's no units that just don't function unless you use their special stratagem every turn.

Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart would be the go-tos in my book for a Brigade army setup, the basic sisters squads there seem like they'd be aces. I think for Martyred Lady and Sacred Rose you'd want to be running bigger squads so a battalion would be better. Bloody Rose almost certainly wants to bring a battalion of Val Heart or Argent Shroud and then use them as a battery to fuel the BR stuff which would be in a vanguard.

Ebon chalice...the only thing I'd think to use them for is like a trio of exorcists parked near the triumph for super miracle dice generation, so I guess they would like to be a spearhead.
I feel I need to make a few points here...

The first being that a good Miracle dice builds is probably our most CP intensive build you can do. Imho, Becon and Litanies of Faith on a hidden, Exocist supporting, WL Canoness aren't optional if you're going down that path. Plus whatever WL trait and relic you actually want. Maybe the addition of Brazier of Eternal Flame in the matchups that it's relevant.
Then the addition of Moment of Grace, Divine Intervention for when your opponent figures out how your list works and stars picking it apart adds up faster than anything short the most Cavalier of BR detachments.

Which kind of ties into my other point, I don't think you need to spend a lot of CPs to make BR detachments work. (Though I may end up a fan of Holy Rage+Beneficence, and to bring it full circle, Repentia generate Miracle Dice when they get wiped our in any non-morale phase.)

   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor





Denver, CO, USA

Lammia, scotsman, and tneva, many thanks... that's exactly what I was hoping for. I think I'll leave Argent Shround on the shelf for my first few outings. I tried building a Valorous Heart Brigade and a Bloody Rose Outrider, but the six Fast choices forced Dominions I didn't really want and couldn't mobilize properly. So I flipped them to a BR Brigade and a VH Spearhead and it works better with my collection, with Exorcists, Retributers, and Penitents filling the six Heavy slots. I also like that the two melee Canonessses, Imagifier, and Celestians share an Order with Seraphim and lots of cheap bodies.

116 PL, 2000 Points, 18 CP
Spoiler:

Valorous Heart Battalion

Canoness (Warlord: Beacon)
Celestine
Imagifier

BSS
BSS
BSS

Exorcist
Exorcist
Exorcist

Bloody Rose Brigade

Canoness w/ relic chainsword (Heroine: Indomitable)
Canoness w/ relic blade
Missionary

BSS w/ 2x melta, combi-melta, cherub, simulacrum
BSS w/ 2x melta, combi-melta, cherub,
BSS w/ stormbolter
BSS w/ stormbolter
BSS w/ stormbolter
BSS w/ stormbolter

Celestians
Imagifier
Preacher

Dominions w/ 4x stormbolter
Seraphim w/ 4x inferno
Seraphim (10) w/ 2x hand flamer, 2x inferno

Penitent
Penitent
Retributers w/ 4x heavy flamer

Rhino
Rhino

Everything is a minimum size except the big Seraphim squad. They escort Celestine while the smaller Seraphim deep strikes. Two Rhinos rush upfield, one with melta Sisters and heavy flamer Rets, the other with melta Sisters and a selections of Characters, probably one Canoness, the Imagifier, and the Preacher, with the Celestians jogging behind to tank wounds ones they unload. Everyone else advances on foot with the second Canoness and Missionary. I think I choose Hand of the Emperor, and I think this army wants to go second. I've got reasonably good targets for Blessed Bolts, Holy Trinity, and Miracle Dice. I can get it on the table ASAP by just building the Penitent from the new box.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/12 12:59:26


   
Made in us
Shadowy Grot Kommittee Memba






Lammia wrote:
the_scotsman wrote:

While I agree BR works best for a vanguard, I also think it is the single most CP-hungry order, because typically that's how you get functional close combat in 8th: Bring a bunch of units, get 1 unit in where it needs to be, spend all your CP on making that unit fight twice with bonus attacks and deal mortal wounds when they die etc etc etc so you kill like 750 points of your opponent's army with that one unit.

In general, I think Sisters are one of the least CP intensive armies out there and honestly I think if you had a good miracle dice engine setup you could make them work with 9CP (battalion+1 other detachment). There's no super duper necessary relics/WL traits that you HAVE to have, there's no units that just don't function unless you use their special stratagem every turn.

Argent Shroud or Valorous Heart would be the go-tos in my book for a Brigade army setup, the basic sisters squads there seem like they'd be aces. I think for Martyred Lady and Sacred Rose you'd want to be running bigger squads so a battalion would be better. Bloody Rose almost certainly wants to bring a battalion of Val Heart or Argent Shroud and then use them as a battery to fuel the BR stuff which would be in a vanguard.

Ebon chalice...the only thing I'd think to use them for is like a trio of exorcists parked near the triumph for super miracle dice generation, so I guess they would like to be a spearhead.
I feel I need to make a few points here...

The first being that a good Miracle dice builds is probably our most CP intensive build you can do. Imho, Becon and Litanies of Faith on a hidden, Exocist supporting, WL Canoness aren't optional if you're going down that path. Plus whatever WL trait and relic you actually want. Maybe the addition of Brazier of Eternal Flame in the matchups that it's relevant.
Then the addition of Moment of Grace, Divine Intervention for when your opponent figures out how your list works and stars picking it apart adds up faster than anything short the most Cavalier of BR detachments.

Which kind of ties into my other point, I don't think you need to spend a lot of CPs to make BR detachments work. (Though I may end up a fan of Holy Rage+Beneficence, and to bring it full circle, Repentia generate Miracle Dice when they get wiped our in any non-morale phase.)


Respectfully I disagree. Litany canoness with Beacon, honestly I can take or leave every other WL trait if I'm not running a melee build for my army. 50 points for a shrine is no brainer. Then I throw St. Kath in there to make sure I have a Simulacrum on all my Exorcists, and I clump the little crew up behind the Battle Sanctum and any other handy piece of terrain ends up in my deployment zone. I'm definitely running Ebon Chalice and throwing Terrible Knowledge on my real warlord, but that one comes with D3 bonus CPs anyway, so it's not a CP drain at all and it's probably a benefit.

I'm now generating 4 miracle dice per turn passively, 1 of them is an auto-6, and I'm probably pairing that trio of exorcists up with some high value rhinos/Immos with Ebon Chalice heavy flamer rets or bloody rose repentia.

I don't think I'd need divine intervention. If someone killed my stand in the back canoness turn 2 because I made a mistake or they had some trick up their sleeve, fine she's gone. If the whole engine lasts til turn 2, I think I've generated enough miracle dice for the whole game.

"Got you, Yugi! Your Rubric Marines can't fall back because I have declared the tertiary kaptaris ka'tah stance two, after the secondary dacatarai ka'tah last turn!"

"So you think, Kaiba! I declared my Thousand Sons the cult of Duplicity, which means all my psykers have access to the Sorcerous Facade power! Furthermore I will spend 8 Cabal Points to invoke Cabbalistic Focus, causing the rubrics to appear behind your custodes! The Vengeance for the Wronged and Sorcerous Fullisade stratagems along with the Malefic Maelstrom infernal pact evoked earlier in the command phase allows me to double their firepower, letting me wound on 2s and 3s!"

"you think it is you who has gotten me, yugi, but it is I who have gotten you! I declare the ever-vigilant stratagem to attack your rubrics with my custodes' ranged weapons, which with the new codex are now DAMAGE 2!!"

"...which leads you straight into my trap, Kaiba, you see I now declare the stratagem Implacable Automata, reducing all damage from your attacks by 1 and triggering my All is Dust special rule!"  
   
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Fresh-Faced New User




Came up with list. I like most of it but can't see how to really squeeze in a 15 SoB squad.
++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [42 PL, 8CP, 864pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Battle-forged CP [3CP]

Detachment CP [5CP]

Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart

+ HQ +

Canoness [3 PL, 53pts]: Bolt pistol, Brazier of Holy Fire, Chainsword

Canoness [3 PL, 54pts]: Bolt pistol, Power sword, Rod of Office

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 81pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Meltagun
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 81pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Meltagun
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 81pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Meltagun
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer

+ Elites +

Celestian Squad [6 PL, 129pts]
. 6x Celestian
. Celestian Superior: Bolt pistol, Combi-flamer
. Celestian w/ Simulacrum: Simulacrum Imperialis
. Celestian w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Meltagun
. Celestian w/ Special Weapon: Storm bolter

Imagifier [2 PL, 45pts]: Tale of the Warrior

+ Heavy Support +

Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter

Exorcist [8 PL, 170pts]: Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter

++ Battalion Detachment +5CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [38 PL, 5CP, 735pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [5CP]

Geminae Superia [2 PL, 40pts]
. 2x Geminae Superia: 2x Power sword

Order Convictions: Order: Bloody Rose

+ HQ +

Canoness [3 PL, 61pts]: Blessed Blade, Inferno pistol

Celestine [8 PL, 160pts]

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 81pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Meltagun
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 69pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer

Battle Sister Squad [4 PL, 69pts]
. 2x Battle Sister
. Battle Sister w/ Special or Heavy Weapon: Storm bolter
. Battle Sister w/ Special Weapon: Meltagun
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Combi-flamer

+ Elites +

Dialogus [2 PL, 35pts]

Imagifier [2 PL, 45pts]: Tale of the Warrior

Zephyrim Squad [9 PL, 175pts]
. 9x Zephyrim: 9x Power sword
. Zephyrim Superior: Bolt pistol, Power sword, Zephyrim Pennant

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) [20 PL, 1CP, 397pts] ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Detachment CP [1CP]

Order Convictions: Order: Bloody Rose

+ HQ +

Missionary [2 PL, 38pts]
. Bolt Pistol and Shotgun

+ Fast Attack +

Seraphim Squad [7 PL, 138pts]
. 7x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

Seraphim Squad [7 PL, 138pts]
. 7x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

Seraphim Squad [4 PL, 83pts]
. 2x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Bolt pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

++ Total: [100 PL, 14CP, 1,996pts] ++

Created with BattleScribe
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





Any particular reason you WANT 15 strong squad? Looks like you have plenty of girls already and you don't get any more special weapons in bigger squad. And your morale will start to be issue. Was there any stratagem you were planning to utilize? As far as I'm concerned 5 strong squads are better than 15.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Any else feeling iffy about Seraphim? As an eldar player I can tell you 4 melta shots really don't deliver the way you want too, and all too often just whiff and then get smashed the next turn because you had to deep strike them. Its statistically not killing a rhino a turn and costs CP to do it? Just feels like a poor choice I'm having trouble justifying.

Anyone try them out with the new DeX? How'd they do?

   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

I thought you couldn't take the zephyrim banner unless the superior took a chainsword? Yet another one of the incredibly asinine requirements probably based on only the chainsword having a scabbard for her to hold the banner or something stupid like that.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
Made in fi
Locked in the Tower of Amareo





 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I thought you couldn't take the zephyrim banner unless the superior took a chainsword? Yet another one of the incredibly asinine requirements probably based on only the chainsword having a scabbard for her to hold the banner or something stupid like that.


If she has bolt pistol she can take the banner. Basically "don't replace bolt pistol with plasma pistol and you can take the banner".

There's no way for her to even take chainsword. All models are armed with power sword. Superior can replace bolt pistol with the plasma pistol or banner.

2024 painted/bought: 109/109 
   
Made in us
Sneaky Sniper Drone




The Inferno Seraphim's deal is pretty much tied to Deadly Decent, I think.
In my mind it's kinda like dropping in a 4xFusion Tau Commander and people like doing that! (Heck, the Seraphim unit even comes with some ablative wounds!)

If something has to die, you've potentially got a movement-phase Miracle Dice to use on damage.
Or, if you don't have a high MD you can tweak your hit/wound rate by Moment of Grace. Or even Faith and Furry to make sure you hit and wound just about everything with your 3 or 4 value MD.

Is 3CP worth Deadly Decent + Faith and Fury to make at least one hit/wound with a melta that you can MD to 6 damage? Might be against some targets.

I also think there's Holy Trinity Potential with them for certain kinds of targets.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/12 21:40:29


 
   
Made in us
Heroic Senior Officer





Western Kentucky

tneva82 wrote:
 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I thought you couldn't take the zephyrim banner unless the superior took a chainsword? Yet another one of the incredibly asinine requirements probably based on only the chainsword having a scabbard for her to hold the banner or something stupid like that.


If she has bolt pistol she can take the banner. Basically "don't replace bolt pistol with plasma pistol and you can take the banner".

There's no way for her to even take chainsword. All models are armed with power sword. Superior can replace bolt pistol with the plasma pistol or banner.

My bad, thanks for the clarification. So it's a stupid and asinine wargear restriction as to whether or not she gets to take the banner, but it's not the one I thought it was, got it.

I really hope this isn't a trend. I don't want tech priest dominus only getting rerolls if they take the stubber or repair if they take phosphor or other stupid things like that.

'I've played Guard for years, and the best piece of advice is to always utilize the Guard's best special rule: "we roll more dice than you" ' - stormleader

"Sector Imperialis: 25mm and 40mm Round Bases (40+20) 26€ (Including 32 skulls for basing) " GW design philosophy in a nutshell  
   
 
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