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kurhanik wrote: So this is less a tactics question and more a reading comprehension question. I finally have had time to dig through the new codex and...I just am having trouble reading the data sheets.
I don't want to copy paste full stats, but for example:
-Battle Sisters Squad is 1 Superior and 4 Sisters. It can ADDITIONALLY take UP TO 5 sisters, or UP TO 10 sisters.
What does this mean? I know it has power level set, but does it mean what it literally says - you can have a squad of 1 superior and 5 battle sisters for +2 power level? or up to 1 superior and 10 sisters?
You can have 5 more sisters for 2 PL more than you pay for standard. Or additional 10 for the PL mentioned.
Ok, fair enough. I just was staring at that trying to decipher it. I was thinking that was how it went, but I kept getting caught up with it saying "ADDITIONALLY CAN TAKE UP TO 5", which just sounds to me like well, up to the number 5 total.
Also, a lot of the war gear setups make little mental sense to me. Still using Battle Sister Squad as example:
-Superior may have 1 melee weapon, OR she may replace her bolt gun with a melee weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a pistol weapon
The last one makes sense to me just fine, but the first two just seem...confusing to the point of being confusing. So your squad leader can A) have melee weapon with bolt gun obviously, B) REPLACE her bolt gun with a melee weapon (bolt guns cost zero points...what would the point of this be?), C) Not take a melee weapon and replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon, or D) Take a melee weapon and then replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon.
WYSIWYG most likely. There are models with melee weapon but no bolt gun which GW caters for. But yes for efficiency you will ensure your model with melee weapon has bolter SOMEWHERE.
Of course logically bolter+melee weapon would cost more than bolter or cc weapon but GW has driven points down so much that there's not enough scalability. 1 pts for bolter or chainsword would be too expensive for 9 pts model. GW really, really, really, REALLY needs to like double or triple cost of everything(including game size. So you would be playing 6000 pts but basic sister costs ~27 pts). This way there would be some better scalability especially on the bottom side.
Ah, that makes enough sense. I just wasn't sure if there was some extra meaning or reading I was missing out on there or was going over my head. And agreed on the granularity of points costs in the game.
Plenty of other "may take" 0 pts things in game. Big ones personally affecting me is ork tankbusta bombs. 1 per 10 in boyz may take them. 0 pts. No reason whatsoever not to take except if you don't have models(which i don't). So basically because my models were assembled years ago when no such upgrade on boyz i'm disadvantaged. Grumble grumble. But with scalability what would be fair price? 5 pts? Seeing how rarely i have had chance to use it those would be taken off generally...
Another is bombs for deth koptas. Again totally pointless not to take additional weapon that causes mortal wounds for free.
tneva82 wrote: Because at the core you roll attacks one at a time. One model rolls to hit, to wound, save, damage. So by the time you roll for 2nd first roll is over. Fast dice rolling is optional rule and can't be used when it affects results like plasma gun in rapid. You can't fast roll 20 plasma shots.
Except you can because 20 plasma shots meets the criteria for fast rolling
"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."
Unless there was an faq about fast rolling I missed?
So you really think you can roll 20 dice and remove 1 plasma gunner per TWO 1's rolled?
Lol no.
We play optional fast rolls on plasma and just assume each 1 is a dead model, seems to work.
tneva82 wrote: Because at the core you roll attacks one at a time. One model rolls to hit, to wound, save, damage. So by the time you roll for 2nd first roll is over. Fast dice rolling is optional rule and can't be used when it affects results like plasma gun in rapid. You can't fast roll 20 plasma shots.
Except you can because 20 plasma shots meets the criteria for fast rolling
"In order to make several attacks at once, all of the attacks must have the same Ballistic Skill (if it’s a shooting attack) or the same Weapon Skill (if it’s a close combat attack). They must also have the same Strength, Armour Penetration and Damage characteristics, and they must be directed at the same unit. If this is the case, make all of the hit rolls at the same time, then all of the wound rolls."
Unless there was an faq about fast rolling I missed?
So you really think you can roll 20 dice and remove 1 plasma gunner per TWO 1's rolled?
Lol no.
Is a strawman your only defense? I've shown rules showing permission that you can. So far you have "nu uh cause I said so"
Sisters can even bring 20 plasma in a single unit so why even use it as an example?
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
kurhanik wrote: So this is less a tactics question and more a reading comprehension question. I finally have had time to dig through the new codex and...I just am having trouble reading the data sheets.
I don't want to copy paste full stats, but for example:
-Battle Sisters Squad is 1 Superior and 4 Sisters. It can ADDITIONALLY take UP TO 5 sisters, or UP TO 10 sisters.
What does this mean? I know it has power level set, but does it mean what it literally says - you can have a squad of 1 superior and 5 battle sisters for +2 power level? or up to 1 superior and 10 sisters?
You can have 5 more sisters for 2 PL more than you pay for standard. Or additional 10 for the PL mentioned.
Ok, fair enough. I just was staring at that trying to decipher it. I was thinking that was how it went, but I kept getting caught up with it saying "ADDITIONALLY CAN TAKE UP TO 5", which just sounds to me like well, up to the number 5 total.
Also, a lot of the war gear setups make little mental sense to me. Still using Battle Sister Squad as example:
-Superior may have 1 melee weapon, OR she may replace her bolt gun with a melee weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon
-Superior may replace her bolt pistol with a pistol weapon
The last one makes sense to me just fine, but the first two just seem...confusing to the point of being confusing. So your squad leader can A) have melee weapon with bolt gun obviously, B) REPLACE her bolt gun with a melee weapon (bolt guns cost zero points...what would the point of this be?), C) Not take a melee weapon and replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon, or D) Take a melee weapon and then replace her bolt gun with a ranged weapon.
WYSIWYG most likely. There are models with melee weapon but no bolt gun which GW caters for. But yes for efficiency you will ensure your model with melee weapon has bolter SOMEWHERE.
Of course logically bolter+melee weapon would cost more than bolter or cc weapon but GW has driven points down so much that there's not enough scalability. 1 pts for bolter or chainsword would be too expensive for 9 pts model. GW really, really, really, REALLY needs to like double or triple cost of everything(including game size. So you would be playing 6000 pts but basic sister costs ~27 pts). This way there would be some better scalability especially on the bottom side.
Ah, that makes enough sense. I just wasn't sure if there was some extra meaning or reading I was missing out on there or was going over my head. And agreed on the granularity of points costs in the game.
Don't even get me started on the Repentia Superior's optional Bolt Pistol...
But the problem with pointing such things is it doesn't really add anything to game.
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Yes, please. These and Repentia are two units that I never invested in over the quarter century (!) I've been playing Sisters. Now that I've got a few of each from the Army Box I'll stuff them all in a Rhino with a Preacher and maybe a Bloody Rose Canoness, but it obviously won't stop there once the individual kits drop. Are Arcos the preferred unit and Rhinos the preferred delivery method?
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Yes, please. These and Repentia are two units that I never invested in over the quarter century (!) I've been playing Sisters. Now that I've got a few of each from the Army Box I'll stuff them all in a Rhino with a Preacher and maybe a Bloody Rose Canoness, but it obviously won't stop there once the individual kits drop. Are Arcos the preferred unit and Rhinos the preferred delivery method?
Arcos will blend their way through most soft and medium targets if they get there, but Repentia are what you want if you're going tank/monster/knight hunting. Both have a good purpose, though I think Arcos fill the bigger need.
antibullyranger wrote: Quite confused what the entire discussion regarding the "single MD" vs "multiple MD" interpretation is about.
According to the codex, you may perform a single act of faith per phase for the listed types of die rolls (advance, hits, wounds, etc.). Before making a roll for a model or unit with the Acts of Faith ability, you can choose one or more dice from your MD pool instead. Set these dice aside, and roll the rest. If you are rolling for hits for a unit with multiple weapon types, you could use multiple dice for each type of weapon since the ability applies to the entire unit for the entire dice roll (aka the unit's Hit roll).
I don't see how there is any "single MD" interpretation from any part of the codex, so I am curious what I am missing that people are so unsure about.
The only potentially vague ruling imo would be whether performing the additional AoF granted by an ability such as Triumph of Saint Katherine's Icon of the Valorous Heart (which allows you to perform an AoF "even if you have already performed one or more AoF in that phase") counts as using your single AoF for the phase if it is performed first. Personally, I don't think this was how the ability was intended to be designed, and instead counts the the AoF globally as an "additional" AoF, allowing you to still perform your normal AoF for that phase.
Fast Dice. It's a little confusing but each attack die is technically a separate attack. You just have the option to roll them together when it makes no practical difference. Since the replacement of a die is being done to a single roll.... and each die is a single roll technically... You couldnt just choose to hit 5 times with 5 miracle dice in one volley. You could choose to hit on one of those rolls.
So the only time multiple Mircale Dice can be used at one time is when charging because this IS one roll, not two separate events.
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Yes, please. These and Repentia are two units that I never invested in over the quarter century (!) I've been playing Sisters. Now that I've got a few of each from the Army Box I'll stuff them all in a Rhino with a Preacher and maybe a Bloody Rose Canoness, but it obviously won't stop there once the individual kits drop. Are Arcos the preferred unit and Rhinos the preferred delivery method?
Arcos will blend their way through most soft and medium targets if they get there, but Repentia are what you want if you're going tank/monster/knight hunting. Both have a good purpose, though I think Arcos fill the bigger need.
Arcos are really really good. Still.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/01/03 18:13:21
antibullyranger wrote: Quite confused what the entire discussion regarding the "single MD" vs "multiple MD" interpretation is about.
According to the codex, you may perform a single act of faith per phase for the listed types of die rolls (advance, hits, wounds, etc.). Before making a roll for a model or unit with the Acts of Faith ability, you can choose one or more dice from your MD pool instead. Set these dice aside, and roll the rest. If you are rolling for hits for a unit with multiple weapon types, you could use multiple dice for each type of weapon since the ability applies to the entire unit for the entire dice roll (aka the unit's Hit roll).
I don't see how there is any "single MD" interpretation from any part of the codex, so I am curious what I am missing that people are so unsure about.
The only potentially vague ruling imo would be whether performing the additional AoF granted by an ability such as Triumph of Saint Katherine's Icon of the Valorous Heart (which allows you to perform an AoF "even if you have already performed one or more AoF in that phase") counts as using your single AoF for the phase if it is performed first. Personally, I don't think this was how the ability was intended to be designed, and instead counts the the AoF globally as an "additional" AoF, allowing you to still perform your normal AoF for that phase.
Fast Dice. It's a little confusing but each attack die is technically a separate attack. You just have the option to roll them together when it makes no practical difference. Since the replacement of a die is being done to a single roll.... and each die is a single roll technically... You couldnt just choose to hit 5 times with 5 miracle dice in one volley. You could choose to hit on one of those rolls.
So the only time multiple Mircale Dice can be used at one time is when charging because this IS one roll, not two separate events.
Anyway, this is at risk of going off topic quickly. How do people who do run Arcos, run them?
Yes, please. These and Repentia are two units that I never invested in over the quarter century (!) I've been playing Sisters. Now that I've got a few of each from the Army Box I'll stuff them all in a Rhino with a Preacher and maybe a Bloody Rose Canoness, but it obviously won't stop there once the individual kits drop. Are Arcos the preferred unit and Rhinos the preferred delivery method?
Arcos will blend their way through most soft and medium targets if they get there, but Repentia are what you want if you're going tank/monster/knight hunting. Both have a good purpose, though I think Arcos fill the bigger need.
Arcos are really really good. Still.
That's not how fast dice work.
Per RAW, fast dice replaces the attack sequence up to the allocation step entirely. As of the battle primer, it is NOT just a convenience rule. It makes a big practical difference in this one specific case because it allows for even the strictest interpretation of AoF to replace all dice used in a fast dice eligible roll.
Also, in Tneva's example...yeah, technically that's how plasma works raw. Don't blame us, blame the 40k writing team for writing an inferior attack sequence.
And the problem is that the ability WASN'T designed. It was copy pasted from AoS's destiny dice rule and altered just enough to make it seem different, without taking into account the fact that 40k uses an entirely different attack sequence than AoS does.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/03 20:06:53
Per RAW, fast dice replaces the attack sequence up to the allocation step entirely. As of the battle primer, it is NOT just a convenience rule. It makes a big practical difference in this one specific case because it allows for even the strictest interpretation of AoF to replace all dice used in a fast dice eligible roll.
Doesn't really make a difference since the battle primer still says "..then make all the hit rolls at the same time..." even assuming it completely replaces the normal hit roll rules, it's still multiple hit rolls and aof only allows us to interfere in a single one.
Per RAW, fast dice replaces the attack sequence up to the allocation step entirely. As of the battle primer, it is NOT just a convenience rule. It makes a big practical difference in this one specific case because it allows for even the strictest interpretation of AoF to replace all dice used in a fast dice eligible roll.
Doesn't really make a difference since the battle primer still says "..then make all the hit rolls at the same time..." even assuming it completely replaces the normal hit roll rules, it's still multiple hit rolls and aof only allows us to interfere in a single one.
There's a YMDC thread on this already so that's probably the better place (and I think most of the rules lawyers said you could replace multiple so it might be worth a read). I think LVO said you could replace multiple too, so you likely can under the ITC ruleset.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lash92 wrote: Btw the LVO judge team also ruled that you just can use a single MD per shooting phase and not replacing multiple.
Pretty sure this was the other way around. From the questioner's Facebook post:
submitted some questions to the LVO team for the upcoming tournament concerning the new sisters of battle codex. Here are their responses. Note that this is not GW and is only applicable to LVO. Also it looks like we will not have a GWFAQ in time for the LVO since they indicated they would publish one after the full release (which is in early 2020).
1. For performing an act of faith, can I use multiple miracle dice when I am “fast dice rolling” for multiple models in a unit or is it limited to one model for the AoF? Yes, as this detailed in the rules for using Miracle Dice. You simply set aside the dice that are being rolled normally and assign the values to those dice being substituted by your Miracle Dice.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/01/04 01:32:13
@Grundz
It is the world largest 40k tournament and several of the TOs are playtester for GW. I think they have a clear understanding on how the rules work and are intended to work ;-)
@ Audustum
The first post made was missleading. Check Matt Roots comments:
1.
I've been pinged as an LVO judge about this thread. There has been some confusion about the wording of faith dice and how they are used.
To be clear: For the sake of LVO judging, we have ruled that you will use 1 dice per roll. For example, if you roll to hit with 4 meltas, a miracle dice could be used for ONE of those shots. The other three would roll normally.
2.
Furthermore, you are limited to 1 dice per phase. Fast dice does not overrule this. You could not "fast roll" the four meltas above and use 4 miracle dice, you would be limited to one
lash92 wrote: @Grundz
It is the world largest 40k tournament and several of the TOs are playtester for GW. I think they have a clear understanding on how the rules work and are intended to work ;-)
@ Audustum
The first post made was missleading. Check Matt Roots comments:
1.
I've been pinged as an LVO judge about this thread. There has been some confusion about the wording of faith dice and how they are used.
To be clear: For the sake of LVO judging, we have ruled that you will use 1 dice per roll. For example, if you roll to hit with 4 meltas, a miracle dice could be used for ONE of those shots. The other three would roll normally.
2.
Furthermore, you are limited to 1 dice per phase. Fast dice does not overrule this. You could not "fast roll" the four meltas above and use 4 miracle dice, you would be limited to one
This ruling is pretty clear cut imo.
Finally, a decision has been made so we can avoid this multiple dice nonsense. This is by far the best we can get until GW answers the asinine silly questions from people who still can't understand that this is 40k, not AoS.
Sim-Life wrote: So looks like an exorcist can hide in the battle sanctum if you face the open sode towards you since it has loads of windows. Thats nice.
Now that is what I'd call a battle church. Looks like it's big enough for a ret squad or two too.
Now... what are the rules for setting this up....
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
lash92 wrote: @Grundz
It is the world largest 40k tournament and several of the TOs are playtester for GW. I think they have a clear understanding on how the rules work and are intended to work ;-)
I know they do, I'm sure that an answer that someone doesn't want is just going to be disregarded at this point
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lash92 wrote: @Grundz
It is the world largest 40k tournament and several of the TOs are playtester for GW. I think they have a clear understanding on how the rules work and are intended to work ;-)
I know they do, I'm sure that an answer that someone doesn't want is just going to be disregarded at this point
Oh, sure - but we can ignore that hypothetical person pretty easily for the time being. If you're looking for insight from what works and what doesn't by analysing the competitive scene, then not only must you parse a lot of data through an ITC lens, but you'll now need to consider these lists under a definitive statement on MD - attacks are one at a time, so replacing rolls is one dice.
ITC bs aside, that turns any insight provided by people who use their own house rules like multiple MD effectively worthless outliers.
...or it means wishful thinking overtakes WAAC sorts who would otherwise be reasonable about it. People who are perfectly well aware of how the rule works will argue how "ambiguous" it is when wishful thinking overtakes them.
Some people confuse plausible with probable. ITC and GW have to deal with these intentionally obtuse folks. So even rules that are perfectly clear require their parent-like intervention just to shut the WAAC crowd up for the benefit of everyone else... not because it truly needed it.
Le sigh.
Hold out bait to entice the enemy. Feign disorder, and then crush him.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War
http://www.40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com
Uh no they didn't write it umambiguously. And FAQ is full of answers to what aren't unclear because people ask silly stuff. You know definition of FAQ? Frequently Asked Question. Just because lots of people ask silly questions about clear rules doesn't make text unambigious. Just that people are incapable of reading or are hoping for power boost.
"Q: If a rule states that an ability triggers on, for example, ‘hit rolls of 6+’, does this refer to the result of the dice rolls before or after modifiers are applied?"
Yeah real unclear. Yet lots of people asked this.
For once rules actually are clear with the MD. But people are wanting more power so they keep asking asking asking hoping to get free power boost. Not because it's unclear but because it's benefitial for the players so rather than accepting clear rule they are trying to get it be different.
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tneva82 wrote: Same as deploying any other unit from your army
I'm wondering if the statue is a separate part or if it has to be connected to the walkway on the second floor. I hope not cause it'll make it impossible to hide an exorcist in the ground level. The wings look too curved to be physically connected to the building IMO so hopefully its a separate bit.
tneva82 wrote: Same as deploying any other unit from your army
I'm wondering if the statue is a separate part or if it has to be connected to the walkway on the second floor. I hope not cause it'll make it impossible to hide an exorcist in the ground level. The wings look too curved to be physically connected to the building IMO so hopefully its a separate bit.
That's more about how I was wondering like an aegis defense line or what. It does look like the statue is separate
It's easy to assume that people arguing an interpretation you disagree with are just looking for an advantage for themselves... But it's quite often not the case.
I plan on building my own Battle Sanctum to match my home table... what would you all guess to be the conventional wisdom on "counts as" playability? Should I match it in every dimension or just try to get it close? To be fair, my games are pretty casual, but I always try to take a conservative line on proxies and such out of respect for my opponents. Would you show up to a tournament with a homemade Sanctum?
Also curious who's definitely bringing one, definitely not, or maybe trying a proxy to see how it plays...
MacPhail wrote: I plan on building my own Battle Sanctum to match my home table... what would you all guess to be the conventional wisdom on "counts as" playability? Should I match it in every dimension or just try to get it close? To be fair, my games are pretty casual, but I always try to take a conservative line on proxies and such out of respect for my opponents. Would you show up to a tournament with a homemade Sanctum?
Also curious who's definitely bringing one, definitely not, or maybe trying a proxy to see how it plays...
I'll probably fit ones in lists where I can as it means not being tied to the Beacon of Faith warlord trait as well as not losing it if your opponent kills your warlord. As for home made santums its TOs discretion. As long as its roughly the right dimensions I wouldn't have a problem but I'm a garage player.
I'll probably fit ones in lists where I can as it means not being tied to the Beacon of Faith warlord trait as well as not losing it if your opponent kills your warlord.
