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Hey, I don't have my book in front of me right now, does Celestine have a preset warlord trait if you make her the warlord or is she stuck with the 3 main rulebook ones?

Audustum wrote:
Hey, I don't have my book in front of me right now, does Celestine have a preset warlord trait if you make her the warlord or is she stuck with the 3 main rulebook ones?

Beacon of Faith


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's +1 Miracle dice at the start of your turn while your Warlord is on the battlefield. It's honestly better on a hidden back field Canoness with the Litanies of Faith Relic

Lammia wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Hey, I don't have my book in front of me right now, does Celestine have a preset warlord trait if you make her the warlord or is she stuck with the 3 main rulebook ones?

Beacon of Faith


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's +1 Miracle dice at the start of your turn while your Warlord is on the battlefield. It's honestly better on a hidden back field Canoness with the Litanies of Faith Relic

Thanks! Yeah, it's what I was thinking of taking anyway, but on a Cannoness.

Lemondish wrote:


Yes...clear as mud..

Not even one little bit. The Datasheet are the rules. The end. Barring an FAQ, they are. A points guide is just a bunch of summaries of...points. no rules. This isnt complicated.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I got to play again today. This time against Mechanicus forces. Sooo many robots that can fire soooo many times.

So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?

 Jancoran wrote:

Lemondish wrote:


Yes...clear as mud..

Not even one little bit. The Datasheet are the rules. The end. Barring an FAQ, they are. A points guide is just a bunch of summaries of...points. no rules. This isnt complicated.

And unit sizes. Matched play points and unit sizes. You forgot that part when you repeated yourself unnecessarily. It seems what you have issue with is the validity of the field manual as a source of unit size values. If you haven't seen it, it has those, and in matched play that is the source of truth, so I'm really at a loss about why you think it wouldn't apply, but the section referring only to power level unit sizes somehow does. Curious approach indeed...

Oberron wrote:
So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?

In my humble opinion the 5++ alone is not quite worth a CP by itself. But it certainly is if combined with Celestine, because that 4++ save is definitely useful. It takes a 9 woman units number of "pre-save wounds" from 10.8 (with 6++) to 13.5 (with 5++) to 18 (with 4++). They will still probably be focus fired and die once they are in the open, it just soaks up a bit more resources. ~27 bolter hits, rather than ~16.

Lemondish wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Lemondish wrote:


Yes...clear as mud..

Not even one little bit. The Datasheet are the rules. The end. Barring an FAQ, they are. A points guide is just a bunch of summaries of...points. no rules. This isnt complicated.

And unit sizes. Matched play points and unit sizes. You forgot that part when you repeated yourself unnecessarily. It seems what you have issue with is the validity of the field manual as a source of unit size values. If you haven't seen it, it has those, and in matched play that is the source of truth, so I'm really at a loss about why you think it wouldn't apply, but the section referring only to power level unit sizes somehow does. Curious approach indeed...

No. You just made a big deal out of a cut n paste error that has no bearing on the rules and accentuated it for no apparent reason.

Mellon wrote:

Oberron wrote:
So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?

In my humble opinion the 5++ alone is not quite worth a CP by itself. But it certainly is if combined with Celestine, because that 4++ save is definitely useful. It takes a 9 woman units number of "pre-save wounds" from 10.8 (with 6++) to 13.5 (with 5++) to 18 (with 4++). They will still probably be focus fired and die once they are in the open, it just soaks up a bit more resources. ~27 bolter hits, rather than ~16.

More actually. 5+++ as well.

Too bad trait doesn't boost inv save granted by celestian. 5++ flagelants would be sweet

Oberron wrote:
So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?

I'd rather give an Imagifier the Book of St. Lucious.

Random note about miracle dice. While using them to pass rolls is most common it's not required. In 4 games i have played i have used once to fail since needed to to perform any act. Another time should have used to fail inv save for canoness when wounded by lascannon as i had card that gave d3 vp if character die.

Also at times when you want to hurt target but not kill(so you can charge it and get to objective for example) it could be useful

tneva82 wrote:

Mellon wrote:

Oberron wrote:
So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?

In my humble opinion the 5++ alone is not quite worth a CP by itself. But it certainly is if combined with Celestine, because that 4++ save is definitely useful. It takes a 9 woman units number of "pre-save wounds" from 10.8 (with 6++) to 13.5 (with 5++) to 18 (with 4++). They will still probably be focus fired and die once they are in the open, it just soaks up a bit more resources. ~27 bolter hits, rather than ~16.

More actually. 5+++ as well.

Ha, you are right. I forgot about that.

So about 40 bolter hits with 4++ and 24 with 6++

So something I'm going to look into once I can get some sisters in hand. I've been thinking about ways to solve the multimelta issue for dominions. Perhaps guard multimelta, or even chopping up spare regular meltas for sisters is the answer. Basic idea is to use heavy flamer as a base and then slap melta bits on it and swap the nozzles. Should be fairly easy and the heavy flamer cables and bits are "close enough" most likely once you've got the melta nozzles in place of the flamer ones.

You would still need dominions, but at least this way you could get 4 multimelta per box, as opposed to pretty situational heavy bolters and flamers.

 Jancoran wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Lemondish wrote:


Yes...clear as mud..

Not even one little bit. The Datasheet are the rules. The end. Barring an FAQ, they are. A points guide is just a bunch of summaries of...points. no rules. This isnt complicated.

And unit sizes. Matched play points and unit sizes. You forgot that part when you repeated yourself unnecessarily. It seems what you have issue with is the validity of the field manual as a source of unit size values. If you haven't seen it, it has those, and in matched play that is the source of truth, so I'm really at a loss about why you think it wouldn't apply, but the section referring only to power level unit sizes somehow does. Curious approach indeed...

No. You just made a big deal out of a cut n paste error that has no bearing on the rules and accentuated it for no apparent reason.

I apologize if I've upset you. I'm only warning people that the lack of clarity here has already caused TO's to field these questions and rule in conflicting ways. If it is happening in my local area, across both GW and local third party stores, then it could be happening where you are. Take it or leave it - only offering insight into TO treatment of the Field Manual, and as far as most folks are concerned, the TO determines reality and there is no amount of arguing you can do after a decision is made. Be prepared if you are going to load up on Mortifiers because people will challenge you on it - it's why I no longer field units of 6 myself.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
So something I'm going to look into once I can get some sisters in hand. I've been thinking about ways to solve the multimelta issue for dominions. Perhaps guard multimelta, or even chopping up spare regular meltas for sisters is the answer. Basic idea is to use heavy flamer as a base and then slap melta bits on it and swap the nozzles. Should be fairly easy and the heavy flamer cables and bits are "close enough" most likely once you've got the melta nozzles in place of the flamer ones.

You would still need dominions, but at least this way you could get 4 multimelta per box, as opposed to pretty situational heavy bolters and flamers.

That is exactly what I have planned. I really don't think I will use any flamers, so I'm planning to convert them all into meltas.

Related: I've found it's fairly easy to make multimelta nozzles out of greenstuff:
Make a long roll of the right diameter.
Mark with a small notch the length of each nozzle.
Let cure partially, something like a couple of hours.
Use a sharp tool to make the horisontal indents along the roll.
Let cure completey overnight.
Cut into nozzles.
Bonus: drill a hole in the front.

And melta canisters are basically blobs of greenstuff.

Hi Guys, like many out there I was planning on starting a Sisters of Battle army... the only problem is that they seems a little underwhelming even in a non tournament context; I looked in 1d4 and blogs but I was hoping to get some general feedbacks from you as well.

Macro issue 1: they lack S9 or an efficent wounding manipolation for killing the most feared T8 tanks. A squad of multimelta retributors cannot even kill a Leman Russ with good positioning and 2cp strat.

Macro issue 2: they lack the plasma like fire for killing mass elite, CC units seem promessing but they will never reach Marine gunlines, lacking the ork/tyranids mobility or the chaos sheninigans.

Macro issue 3: all these issues that other armies have, is resolved via ridiculously low cost per model, which is not the case.

Am I missing something? Is the Miracle dice mecanic so powerful to balance all these liabilities?

Mellon wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Mellon wrote:

Oberron wrote:
So heroine in the making can be used on repentia superior, imagifier, etc. Worth it to give repents superior +1 shield of faith for repentance to have 5++/5+++?

In my humble opinion the 5++ alone is not quite worth a CP by itself. But it certainly is if combined with Celestine, because that 4++ save is definitely useful. It takes a 9 woman units number of "pre-save wounds" from 10.8 (with 6++) to 13.5 (with 5++) to 18 (with 4++). They will still probably be focus fired and die once they are in the open, it just soaks up a bit more resources. ~27 bolter hits, rather than ~16.

More actually. 5+++ as well.

Ha, you are right. I forgot about that.

So about 40 bolter hits with 4++ and 24 with 6++

Sounds like 1 cp to increase repentia survival by that much could be worth it since a 5++/5+++ is just about as good as a 3+ except it ignores ap. And it helps their durability in melee too. And it would effect multiple squads

Also with around 34 bolter hits that's going to be several squads worth more than the repentia focusing on them sounds like a very good distraction.

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Hi Guys, like many out there I was planning on starting a Sisters of Battle army... the only problem is that they seems a little underwhelming even in a non tournament context; I looked in 1d4 and blogs but I was hoping to get some general feedbacks from you as well.

Macro issue 1: they lack S9 or an efficent wounding manipolation for killing the most feared T8 tanks. A squad of multimelta retributors cannot even kill a Leman Russ with good positioning and 2cp strat.

Macro issue 2: they lack the plasma like fire for killing mass elite, CC units seem promessing but they will never reach Marine gunlines, lacking the ork/tyranids mobility or the chaos sheninigans.

Macro issue 3: all these issues that other armies have, is resolved via ridiculously low cost per model, which is not the case.

Am I missing something? Is the Miracle dice mecanic so powerful to balance all these liabilities?

Exorcists are our main tank hunters; Multi-Melta Rets can nab a tank a turn with MD but they aren't the first place you generally look.
Issue 2 is largely treated with Storm Bolters and generally being a cheaper Elite army with easy access to Invulnerable saves. Valorous Heart is also a popular Order because it stretches this further with ignoring up to AP -2.

Issue 1: Exorcists and Sisters Repentia (Bloody Rose). Exorcists surprise me all the time with their output (I play Ebon Chalice, 6's for damage on demand).

2: For killing elites, Storm Bolters are the answer. The Blessed Bolts strat works wonders against good armor, multi wound targets (hi Primaris!)

3: Sisters actually seem fairly cheap. They're not Guard, for sure, but not terribly far off. The biggest issue I've noticed is the T:3 on the bulk of our stuff. Transports (esp. for CC units) helps, as does cover and all of Valorous Heart. Don't expect a squad to survive mass attacks though.

Cleric wrote:
Issue 1: Exorcists and Sisters Repentia (Bloody Rose). Exorcists surprise me all the time with their output (I play Ebon Chalice, 6's for damage on demand).

2: For killing elites, Storm Bolters are the answer. The Blessed Bolts strat works wonders against good armor, multi wound targets (hi Primaris!)

3: Sisters actually seem fairly cheap. They're not Guard, for sure, but not terribly far off. The biggest issue I've noticed is the T:3 on the bulk of our stuff. Transports (esp. for CC units) helps, as does cover and all of Valorous Heart. Don't expect a squad to survive mass attacks though.

.

Exorcist tanks are cool. Death dealing machines now.

Storm bolter Dominion are pretty cool. I have been surprised by how many times I cannot maximize them because I am finding that going second is just better for my army. I have conceded going 1st more than once. For my specific build, what is normally a very good option has produced a bit less than hoped. Still really good but im pondering other options if I keep going second like im tending to do.

Sisters are not a elite army their basic troop unit might make you think they are, being not much less expensive then a tactical squad, but they don't have any real expensive units, so generally sisters can "weight of numbers" a fight, then take miracle dice which allows you to at key moments maximize random die rolls. this is important as when people discuss power levels etc they always tend to discuss the averages (as they should) sisters can break the average when the chips are really down. sisters seem to be doing reasonably well. I doubt they'll ever be topping tourny lists but they seem to be an army people are having fun with.

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Hi Guys, like many out there I was planning on starting a Sisters of Battle army... the only problem is that they seems a little underwhelming even in a non tournament context; I looked in 1d4 and blogs but I was hoping to get some general feedbacks from you as well.

Macro issue 1: they lack S9 or an efficent wounding manipolation for killing the most feared T8 tanks. A squad of multimelta retributors cannot even kill a Leman Russ with good positioning and 2cp strat.

Macro issue 2: they lack the plasma like fire for killing mass elite, CC units seem promessing but they will never reach Marine gunlines, lacking the ork/tyranids mobility or the chaos sheninigans.

Macro issue 3: all these issues that other armies have, is resolved via ridiculously low cost per model, which is not the case.

Am I missing something? Is the Miracle dice mecanic so powerful to balance all these liabilities?

These are largely irrelevant. Not having S9 is canceled out by both having a fairly ridiculous number of S8 shots for the price(Exorcist) or AP-4(Retributors) which both negate the loss of strength on their own, before you consider that a Sisters army only really needs to land 2 shots to kill a 12 wound tank with D6 damage.

Plasma is vastly overrated, sisters struggle a bit to kill 2+ armor but between volume of shots, Blessed bolts, and melta, it's not that big of deal. Zephyrim can kill pretty much any space marine infantry unit outright out of deepstrike with a guaranteed charge roll, or also have a 30" max threat range first turn. Not that you particularly need to.

Considering a battle sister is 3+ 6++ immune to AP-1(most of the time) and has BS 3+ for 9 points, they are ridiculously low cost per model. If you play valorous heart, most space marine anti-infantry weapons are almost entirely worthless against you. A devastator doctrine imperial fist thunderfire cannon kills ONE battle sister per volley on average. It takes 3 full centurions to kill a unit of 5 battle sisters in cover, even in tactical doctrine.

Your thinking is overly narrow.

ERJAK wrote:


Your thinking is overly narrow.

In fairness you weren't the biggest fan of the new codex until you actually used it.

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
Hi Guys, like many out there I was planning on starting a Sisters of Battle army... the only problem is that they seems a little underwhelming even in a non tournament context; I looked in 1d4 and blogs but I was hoping to get some general feedbacks from you as well.

Macro issue 1: they lack S9 or an efficent wounding manipolation for killing the most feared T8 tanks. A squad of multimelta retributors cannot even kill a Leman Russ with good positioning and 2cp strat.

Macro issue 2: they lack the plasma like fire for killing mass elite, CC units seem promessing but they will never reach Marine gunlines, lacking the ork/tyranids mobility or the chaos sheninigans.

Macro issue 3: all these issues that other armies have, is resolved via ridiculously low cost per model, which is not the case.

Am I missing something? Is the Miracle dice mecanic so powerful to balance all these liabilities?

1) I've killed just about anything I've targeted with Rets + Storm of Retribution (up to a Repulsor, which I believe is a harder target than a Leman Russ by 2-4 wounds?). They're really good. Everyone seems to give Exorcists strong praise, too, and they are a strong choice. Wounding on 4s vs wounding on 3s doesn't make those weapons necessarily bad. Also, don't forget things like Moment of Grace that can potentially turn a rolled 3 wound roll into a 4 in a pinch. Dice manipulation is this army's thing.

2) As everyone has said: Blessed Bolts on Storm Bolter Dominions. There's also a TON of STR 5 -1AP in the army, and it isn't a direct foil to Space Marine meta... it is a nice support element for the things that are.

3) This touches very lightly on something you've completely missed, especially in tournament play: Valorous Heart makes those 9 pt bodies probably some of the most efficient point cost models in the game. Killing off a 4 point guardsman is fairly trivial, even in cover. Killing off a Valorous Heart model takes a bit of work, and they make cover disgusting.

I think the biggest thing you've not touched is that sisters on the tabletop can be a BIG problem to shoot down. I don't think some of the better builds are going to table you in 2-3 turns, but they certainly CAN in the right circumstances... instead these builds are going to last longer and stick around well past the point of frustrating the opponents because they are a TON more durable than the standard 3T 3+ model if played a certain way.

If you were to look at the codex for 5m and just crash through the meaty sections like Stratagems, Relics, Warlord Traits, and some data slates that caught your fancy... and then formulated the opinion based off of that cursory glance, you may come up with a few erroneous assumptions. There's a surprising amount of finesse in how some of those rules interact with each other. For example: your Retributor squad with 4 MM can blow their cherubs (you did bring them, right?) to fire 6 times... if you get 2 through on a Leman Russ, it gets no armor save... and with the right combination of Miracle Dice, that thing could be slagged quickly... because you did bring a Simulacrum so you could spend 2 MD on your damage rolls, right? And then of course you have that squad with ablative wounds in cover for that 2+, don't you? And you're also ignoring -1 and -2 AP... and have a 6+++ and likely a 4++ for the first couple of turns, right? This army layers very well.

I am glad (and surprised!) to see you so optimistic about the new codex, I knew about the stratagem and miracles ofc, but I needed more opinions based on practical experience.

Do you think valorous heart is a go to or does the martyred Lady hold some value?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, since Blessed bolts is limited to only 4 storm bolters in a squad of dominions, running the math it just kills 4 primaris, are you sure is this devastating?

I would rank valorous heart and argent shroud as top ones with bloody rose vanquard for some chop chop h2h units as basic go to but that\s my initial theory hammering.

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
I am glad (and surprised!) to see you so optimistic about the new codex, I knew about the stratagem and miracles ofc, but I needed more opinions based on practical experience.

Do you think valorous heart is a go to or does the martyred Lady hold some value?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, since Blessed bolts is limited to only 4 storm bolters in a squad of dominions, running the math it just kills 4 primaris, are you sure is this devastating?

I'd say Valorous Heart is the "iron hands" of the sisters. Everyone and their dog can figure it out and make it work fairly easily. They're going to have a little variety but overall pretty straightforward. It's part of why I picked them, because I probably don't have the mental ability to master yet another army, so may as well take the easy option for once. plus these are beautiful models that I bought as a painting project and dammit you're gonna earn the right to take them off of the table

Given how the more experienced players here talk, I'm very excited to see how the other traits do, I have a feeling there's some very cool lists just waiting to get their time to shine once people get more games in and figure out the tricks. Bloody Rose hits like a truck and the way other traits can modify miracle dice could have some very powerful combos done correctly.

I think for the current shake-up of how things are being done on the table, Valorous Heart gives really good benefits. I've personally been running an Imagifier with Tale of the Stoic to get to the -2 AP ignoring, paying Heroine in the Making to give her Indomitable Belief, and then giving her the Book of Saint Lucius to extend both of those auras to 9".

Lurk Celestine around that line to pass out 4++ until you've dispersed enough of that -3AP volume fire your opponent can muster... don't just rocket her up the table like some cheap trick. She's much stronger in the later portions of the game when your opponent has much less to answer her with. I usually start getting a bit more pushy with her on turn 3.

5 Dominions with 4 Storm Bolters is 58 points? 4 Primaris bodies are what? 80-90? That's a pretty minimal investment to wipe out the squad for 1 CP. Otherwise, it is a cheap unit that throws out a healthy volume, and helps to fill a BDE a bit easier if that's your flavor.

Our Martyred Lady isn't bad, but I think the preponderance of -1 and -2 AP weapons with decent strength and high rate of fire throughout the environment, it becomes really hard to ignore Valorous Heart really stonewalling all of that. Taking away that AP is a very strong solution, especially if you can hug cover for a bit.

Our Martyred Lady would probably end up playing a bit more like a typical 40K game where both armies slug each other with haymakers until one collapses. Valorous Heart is going to play significantly different in that it wants to wear people down, weather the worst of it, and then grind through the endgame once your opponent's capacity has been blunted. I think this gives it a bit of an advantage in the current meta, but if plasma becomes popular, or -3 AP becomes standard, then you'll see other orders pick up and take over.

Valorous Heart seems to be the favorite for most competitive, mainly due to ignoring AP -1 and -2 if you have an Imigifier nearby, along with 6+ FNP. Bloody Rose, as mentioned above, for a Vanguard is pretty nice too. Those Repentia are nasty! I've been running Ebon Chalice for access to 6's for MD on demand, and 5+++ to MW is nice if the opponent is packing them. I ran a Batt of Martyred Lady my first game for MD generation, but that gave me way more than I ever used.

I think Martyred Lady lands well to running big squads, but usually people (myself included) like MSU. +1 to hit with Meltas in a full squad for ablative wounds with reroll 1's from either a Cannoness or the strat seems really nice too... but that feels pretty expensive, and requires your opponent to kill some but not all (and hopefully very few) of that squad. I just prefer Exorcists for the added range, toughness, and non circumstantial damage.


How have people been running the Triumph? I've been parking it back with my Exorcists, blocking in (protecting) my Warlord Cannoness with Beacon of Faith that is giving reroll 1's to the organs of death. I do this for the aforementioned protection (and counter charging anything on the tanks) and to let 2 exorcists use a MD for those sweet 6's on damage, but I feel like that's a very expensive buff unit for this.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:

 DarklyDreaming wrote:
I am glad (and surprised!) to see you so optimistic about the new codex, I knew about the stratagem and miracles ofc, but I needed more opinions based on practical experience.

Do you think valorous heart is a go to or does the martyred Lady hold some value?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, since Blessed bolts is limited to only 4 storm bolters in a squad of dominions, running the math it just kills 4 primaris, are you sure is this devastating?

I'd say Valorous Heart is the "iron hands" of the sisters. Everyone and their dog can figure it out and make it work fairly easily. They're going to have a little variety but overall pretty straightforward. It's part of why I picked them, because I probably don't have the mental ability to master yet another army, so may as well take the easy option for once. plus these are beautiful models that I bought as a painting project and dammit you're gonna earn the right to take them off of the table

Given how the more experienced players here talk, I'm very excited to see how the other traits do, I have a feeling there's some very cool lists just waiting to get their time to shine once people get more games in and figure out the tricks. Bloody Rose hits like a truck and the way other traits can modify miracle dice could have some very powerful combos done correctly.

Argent shroud, valorous heart and bloody rose are all A. Great and B. Great together.

And argent shroud battalion is an incredibly useful, cheap way to get 5 extra CP. For a bit over 350pts you can have 3 units of fast triple melta alongside a melta/brazier canoness and a missionary.