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 Sim-Life wrote:
In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.

Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.

Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.

Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.

Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...

Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.

Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.

 Sim-Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.

Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.

Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...

Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.

Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.

Whether the models exist or not is actually pretty irrelevant. It's not that hard to glue a powersword to a seraphim and call it a zephyrim. Like the #1 SoB player has.

It's hard to tell because FLG screwed up BCP but I think the number one SoB player (not kyle thomsen, he played marines it just lists him as sororitas) played a valorous heart+Boody rose list of:

Val Brigade with 2 Canoness and a Missionary, 6 min naked BSS squads, 3 Seraphim with IP and PP, 3 Exorcists, 2 Imags and a Hospitaller(i believe) and a BR Vanguard with 3x10 Zephyrim and a Canoness and went at least 4-0.

It's a pretty bog standard list though I would have dropped the plasma pistols for stormbolters on the battle sisters and done my best to squeez Celestine in there considering how well she synergizes with Zephyrim. But that's just personal preference and he's clearly doing just fine with what he's got.

 Sim-Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.

Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.

Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...

Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.

Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.

Out of those only one that will likely be on sister top competive unit is Zephyr but that's one of the easiest conversions to do. Literally just replace one pistol with power sword. Mortifier is unlikely to be top dog with all the hgih ROF medium damage medium AP weapons that are the fashion now not to mention imperial fists that will eat those for breakfast. Haven't heard anybody claim triumph is even remotely competive let alone one whose missing would make not good representation here.

MAYBE sanctum but again doubtful that will make sisters suddenly IH crushing power house. No the game was just another example of how IH are playing basically game of their own.

I mean with how badly balanced 40k generally and particularly currently is (particularly thanks to the Marine Supplements) if winning hyper-competitive events is that important, you're just gonna shell out the hundreds of dollars to buy the latest broken gak (IH&IF) like the rest of the hyper-comp band-wagon does. Either that or you accept your fate that you'll be attending such events for other reasons (fun, meeting new people, getting a bunch of games in, etc.).

That's why I wouldn't worry about IH that much anyway to the point it becomes the only focus of discussion or list-building. If someone's only starting to play Sisters for comp reasons then they'll be in for a rude awakening (even if you go full 'screw IH' counter builds, they'll still wipe the floor with you because they are just that broken) . That's why I think if someone's playing sisters it's not going to be all about maximum power and winning chances.
That said, to encourage some tactics discussion outside of Valorous Heart and meta-building, how about excluding Codex Vanilla Astartes and Supplements entirely for a bit and talk about: Watcha guys thing about our worst and best matchups against other armies and for what reasons ?
And because I'm starting with Ebon Chalice, how do you guys like the EC gals and what are your lists, tactics and strategies for them ^^?

That was kind of my point when I said IH being OP is enforcing my point. They'll likely be nerfed soon enough and we can judge Sisters against a meta that isn't totally skewed towards 2.0 Marines but until then theres no point in judging Sisters by their LVO preformance.

I should point out that I'm not a competitive player so how they do in LVO or any tournament is of no consequence to me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
I mean with how badly balanced 40k generally and particularly currently is (particularly thanks to the Marine Supplements) if winning hyper-competitive events is that important, you're just gonna shell out the hundreds of dollars to buy the latest broken gak (IH&IF) like the rest of the hyper-comp band-wagon does. Either that or you accept your fate that you'll be attending such events for other reasons (fun, meeting new people, getting a bunch of games in, etc.).

That's why I wouldn't worry about IH that much anyway to the point it becomes the only focus of discussion or list-building. If someone's only starting to play Sisters for comp reasons then they'll be in for a rude awakening (even if you go full 'screw IH' counter builds, they'll still wipe the floor with you because they are just that broken) . That's why I think if someone's playing sisters it's not going to be all about maximum power and winning chances.
That said, to encourage some tactics discussion outside of Valorous Heart and meta-building, how about excluding Codex Vanilla Astartes and Supplements entirely for a bit and talk about: Watcha guys thing about our worst and best matchups against other armies and for what reasons ?
And because I'm starting with Ebon Chalice, how do you guys like the EC gals and what are your lists, tactics and strategies for them ^^?

I love Ebon Chalice. I think they're being severely under rated because VH does well in the tournament meta. After Marines are nerfed I think they'll get more attention. I think they'd be a prime Order for meltas in basic squads.

 Ragnar Blackmane wrote:
I mean with how badly balanced 40k generally and particularly currently is (particularly thanks to the Marine Supplements) if winning hyper-competitive events is that important, you're just gonna shell out the hundreds of dollars to buy the latest broken gak (IH&IF) like the rest of the hyper-comp band-wagon does. Either that or you accept your fate that you'll be attending such events for other reasons (fun, meeting new people, getting a bunch of games in, etc.).

Not every competitive player has the same goals, the same way not every painter does. (Also, Bandwagoning =/= Competitive. There are plenty of IH players who have a precisely 0% chance of any significant placing on the simple basis that they went out and bought the thing that's 'uber competitive' without understanding either what the list does or that they themselves suck and are bad.)

Very few, maybe 10% of players go in thinking they can actually win the event. Being best in faction or just doing the best you can with the army you like is a far more common goal.

Some players, even ones in that 10% who DO have a legitimate shot at winning big events, just like being the underdog. They also understand enough to know that just bringing the current best army in the game means d*** all if you A. Don't know how to play it and B. Don't enjoy playing it enough to really push yourself to practice with it a lot and adjust your style to match the strengths of the army.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sim-Life wrote:


I love Ebon Chalice. I think they're being severely under rated because VH does well in the tournament meta. After Marines are nerfed I think they'll get more attention. I think they'd be a prime Order for meltas in basic squads.

I can't imagine anything being better than argent shroud for that. Being able to guarantee 6 damage every 2 miracle dice(+1 the one for the start of the round) is nice but requires significant investment in dice generation to get a lot of benefit out of it and transfers your vulnerability to the will of the dice from the damage roll to the hit roll. It's an interesting equation AS=.667*3.5-(1MD>=4), EC= .5*6-(2*MD<=4) But I think argent shroud comes out on top when you consider that you'll also be benefiting rapid fire weapons. It's not that EC is bad for this, it's just that AS is REALLY good with meltas on BSS.


Ebon Chalice DOES have a lot going for it though, more than I thought originally. Their strategem is great, they have easily the best of the Order Specific Warlord Traits, being able to guarantee 6s for your miracle dice at relatively low cost is incredibly powerful. You'll definitely have the tools to succeed in a different meta.

I like EC for meltas more because of the headgames it plays when your opponent doesn't want to charge anything into your BSS squads because you have a guaranteed 6 whenever you want it. Your basic BSS squads will generally be safe from anything REALLY scary charging them because anything scary will be put off by getting shot with a melta in Overwatch.

ERJAK wrote:
It's hard to tell because FLG screwed up BCP but I think the number one SoB player (not kyle thomsen, he played marines it just lists him as sororitas) played a valorous heart+Boody rose list of:

Val Brigade with 2 Canoness and a Missionary, 6 min naked BSS squads, 3 Seraphim with IP and PP, 3 Exorcists, 2 Imags and a Hospitaller(i believe) and a BR Vanguard with 3x10 Zephyrim and a Canoness and went at least 4-0.

It's a pretty bog standard list though I would have dropped the plasma pistols for stormbolters on the battle sisters and done my best to squeez Celestine in there considering how well she synergizes with Zephyrim. But that's just personal preference and he's clearly doing just fine with what he's got.

If Reddit it right, that is Alan Bajramovic's List and he placed 20th (5-1) losing in the 5th Round to Alexander Fennell's Raptors (6-1, somewhere between 9-13th place) by 1 point. Kudos to Alan!

I'm currently in an escalation league and I gotta say mortifiers have been mvp in the 500 pts range. I've also taken repentia that have torn units to shreds but once they wipe out the unit they crash into they just get blown to bits in the next shooting.

We are playing a modified patrol detachment that makes things very limiting (only 1 fa elite and heavy, no flyers, max of 2 troops and only 1 hq until 1k) so it rewards creativity.

I'm thinking of going max girls squads and go sacred rose to minimize loss of the limited special weps and regenerate miracle dice

I made a list. Not bleeding-edge competitive, but I don't go to tournaments, so I don't need it to be. That being said, I'd love critique and advice on it!

 JNAProductions wrote:
I made a list. Not bleeding-edge competitive, but I don't go to tournaments, so I don't need it to be. That being said, I'd love critique and advice on it!

What are the Hospitaliers for?

 Sim-Life wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I made a list. Not bleeding-edge competitive, but I don't go to tournaments, so I don't need it to be. That being said, I'd love critique and advice on it!

What are the Hospitaliers for?

Rezzing Retributors or, more likely, Arcos.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I made a list. Not bleeding-edge competitive, but I don't go to tournaments, so I don't need it to be. That being said, I'd love critique and advice on it!

What are the Hospitaliers for?

Rezzing Retributors or, more likely, Arcos.

I'd move the retributors to one of the battalions and move the Pengines to the Spearhead and make it Valorous Heart, or even Ebon Chalice. If valorous heart obviously drop some points to get an imagifier. This means your Pengines as distraction carnifex is more effective because your opponent won't want to be throwing things like RFBC at the Exorcists.

If ebon chalice, you get better miracle dice and access to their great warlord trait(since you can't actually get the 4++).

Pen Engines aren't <ORDER> units.

Edit: Whoops, no. I see what you mean.

More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.

 ZergSmasher wrote:
More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.

Reroll wounds is a big deal and I think works out better than S4 I think.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.

Reroll wounds is a big deal and I think works out better than S4 I think.

If you can exclusively target T5 or T8 it's literally irrelevant.

 Sim-Life wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.

Reroll wounds is a big deal and I think works out better than S4 I think.

55% vs 50% so yeah. Maybe he was hoping for S4 AND reroll to wound? Which would be bonkers good upgrade 75% vs T4 and 55% vs T5-T7 would be pretty sweet.

 davidgr33n wrote:
Is Horde the way to go now for competitive Pure Sisters?

Always was.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 davidgr33n wrote:
I

Anyone else having good success with hordes?

limitless success, just about? 36-6 before the new codex this year and then 9-1 so far with them with the new codex. Loss was to the new Blood Angels. We both felt that terrain basically made the game incredibly difficult for me but that's the wages of war. I guess since LVO just happened my official final total for this year was 45-7 as "horde" sisters.

Did also do Mech'd with the Beta which was 7-4 but that just was not as good.

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
More than one LVO Sisters list ran a combination of Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose, so it seems like that's probably the way to go for competitive play. I like Zephyrim (on paper anyway), but I still think I like Repentia in Rhinos better. Maybe if you really double down on Zephyrim and bring Celestine with them they can really shine though, but S3 is a bit of a deal breaker even with the BR strat, and they'll probably outrun any Imagifier support that could give them S4.

Reroll wounds is a big deal and I think works out better than S4 I think.

55% vs 50% so yeah. Maybe he was hoping for S4 AND reroll to wound? Which would be bonkers good upgrade 75% vs T4 and 55% vs T5-T7 would be pretty sweet.

Well if you can get that Imagifier into position...

 Sim-Life wrote:


Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.

Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.

the top sisters list apparently having 30 zeraphim means this guy is either a time traveler or converting a few models is not as high of a barrier to entry as you are making out

I thought it was 30 Seraphim.

 davidgr33n wrote:
Is Horde the way to go now for competitive Pure Sisters?

I've gone 12-3 with Mech Sisters so far. First loss was to a heavy eldar flyer list before I started running VH Exo's. The other two were to IH lists, so not much different than everyone else living in their shadow. I've been using lots of Seraphim as well, though my Zephyrim conversions haven't gotten to the table yet. All good things. The Dex has more than one competitive build, several certainly are more fun than spamming 15 girl zombie squads.

 LunarSol wrote:
I thought it was 30 Seraphim.

++ Brigade Detachment +12CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas)
+ No Force Org Slot +

Order Convictions: Order: Valorous Heart

+ HQ +

Canoness Brazier of Holy Fire, Chainsword, Inferno pistol, warlord

Canoness Bolt pistol, Chainsword, Null Rod

Missionary
. Autogun and Laspistol

+ Troops +

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

Battle Sister Squad
. 4x Battle Sister
. Sister Superior: Bolt pistol, Boltgun

+ Elites +

Hospitaller

Imagifier : Tale of the Stoic

Imagifier Tale of the Stoic

+ Fast Attack +

Seraphim Squad
. 5x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

Seraphim Squad
. 5x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

Seraphim Squad
. 5x Seraphim
. Seraphim Superior: Bolt pistol, Plasma pistol
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols
. Seraphim w/ Special Weapons: 2x Inferno Pistols

+ Heavy Support +

Exorcist Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter

Exorcist Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter

Exorcist Exorcist Missile Launcher, Heavy bolter

++ Vanguard Detachment +1CP (Imperium - Adepta Sororitas) ++

+ No Force Org Slot +

Order Convictions: Order: Bloody Rose

+ HQ +

Canoness Chainsword, Inferno pistol

+ Elites +

Zephyrim Squad
. 9x Zephyrim: 9x Power sword
. Zephyrim Superior: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Zephyrim Squad
. 9x Zephyrim: 9x Power sword
. Zephyrim Superior: Plasma pistol, Power sword

Zephyrim Squad
. 9x Zephyrim: 9x Power sword
. Zephyrim Superior: Bolt pistol, Power sword, Zephyrim Pennant

I'm.... kind of in love..... Definitely some things I'd change to fit in some models I'd like, but.... loving it.

Jancoran wrote:

 davidgr33n wrote:
Is Horde the way to go now for competitive Pure Sisters?

Always was.

I disagree with this sentiment.

My games after this codex dropped were my first games since when I started where I didn't feature Mech Dominions, and I was fully mechanized until this edition.

I've always considered Sisters to be a mechanized infantry army. It logically follows from their permissible loadouts and characteristics. Even this edition until now, with transports being costed so high and basically useless for not-melee units, I still felt that a combination of high unit cost, low toughness, and short range translated into a general desire to mount up the units that mattered.



That said, after this codex, being on foot does look better. Dominions can't even use their transport anymore [a long fall from the days where they literally had to buy a dedicated transport that they could outflank in], and transports are hideously expensive to be handing them out to 9+ troop units. I'm thinking Brig+2x Batt with Exorcists, Pengines/Mortifiers, Seraphim, Zephyrim, and mounted Repentia. Which is a lot of unit diversity from the start of this edition where my list was 3 Outriders with Mech Dominions.

Sim-Life wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Sim-Life wrote:
In fairness what we see at LVO isn't really a fair representation of the army since half the models aren't/weren't released in time.

Assuming guy didn't have existing army. I would expect sob players be veterans since 3 kits do not army make. And none of the new units without old models aren't essential.

Ih is just so broken not many can compete with them. Even vh will melt with 20 s7 -3 shots coming in and that's lesser worry with ih...

Well the zephyrim, Triumph, mortifiers, sanctum, Junith are all new and had no models in time. Mortifiers and Zephyrim are obviously the big absentees as both seem like great units on paper but obviously no one could use them in tournaments yet. I think the Sanctum and Triumph have a place but because they don't have models haven't seen much use. IMO the only model that would never be much use is Junith but I'm willing to be wrong on that, I've not tried a Martyred horde but I like the sound of it.

Also IH being incredibly OP just further enforces my point.

Zephyrim, definitiely.

That said, I don't think the Sanctum has a place, it's a fortification and also costs a detachment.
Saint Katherine's Triumph is also awkward and probably doesn't have a place, because the ease at which one can remove a T3 18W character is ridiculous. It would have had to have been something like a floating <9W casket with a group of infantry surrounding it that count as characters so long as they're within 2" of the casket like the Gun Crew property to see the table, I think. 18W T3 is really fragile.
Junith seems neat, but she's Our Martyred Lady, which is a major drawback for her, and she only affects Our Martyred Lady, so she won't play nice with Valorous Heart, Bloody Rose, or Argent Shroud.


Valorous Heart is cool, but I think it's dominance is almost exclusively because of the insane Marine meta. If the meta was different, the AP ignoring would be kind of useless and I think BR or AS would be top of the pile.

All harping on the useful/lessness of the Zerphyrim please remember that Bloody Rose Zephyrim have "Tear Them Down" at their disposal.

So the worst case (6+T), they're wounding on 5s and re-rolling all fails. One squad of 10 BR Zephyrim are pushing out something like 31 attacks, hitting about 20 times and wounding 10ish of them when it is all said and done? And with AP -4 due to BR, most things just won't get a save at all.

Sounds pretty good to me.

I am thinking of rolling with 2 squads of Zephyrim instead of 3, and putting in a 8 girl Repentia squad + Rhino for about the same points... and tossing in the Missionary + BR Canoness into it. I may go down to 7 Repentia and toss in a BR Imagifier as well, but that's down to the tweaking stuff phase.

Zephyrim sound fantastic and I'll be starting to convert mine as soon as this month's painting contest is over.

As for mech vs. foot/horde, I don't see it as black and white as Jancoran paints it... he's done well competitively, but there are plenty of TAC builds that will struggle with 8+ vehicles with invuln and FNP shenanigans and we can fill them with a nasty variety of surprises. I ran three Rhinos last game and the one that made it delivered Canoness, Imagifier, Preacher, and Celestians right to where they would do the most damage. If I'd walked them, they'd have needed a different Order to even get there, and BR damage output just seems too good to pass up.

Just wish they had given vehicle upgrade like simulcraum. As it is mech force will not be using MD all that much