Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
What is your opinion on using a 5 girl bss with two stormbolters and a combi-melta in conjunction with Argent Shroud and hand of the emperor.
The argent Shroud likes to move forward and use their mobility to control the midfield, often getting in the 12 inch deadzone where sisters shine. So lots of melta feels desirable.
But they are also meant to take the objectives which will often leave the melta useless. So i think that two stormbolters and a combi-melta could be the sweet spot for Argent Shroud. Keeping maximum firepower at range, but having the opportunity to take adantage of the movespeed and positioning of the enemy of possible.
What do you guys think?
I'm going to try a combi-melta and two stormbolters on at least the units that I plan on pushing forward with. It feels comfortable to have a few more anti tank threats, and once in a blue moon I'll get to use a miracle dice to hit something big in overwatch.
I have couple such squads(though couple spare bodies).
Hasn't been that useful so far but when you face gunlines and you have over 30" between you to start with it's bit hard...Even with argent shroud and +1 from sacred rites you can't be sure you'll get to range in turn 2! Especially as front line will be soft so it could very well be 2nd line bit further back that gets to shoot.
Like the idea, just been up against about worst matchup for the melta guns Also all 3 games been facing targets storm bolters have been facing suboptimal targets. Wounding on 5's or 6's and 3+ or better saves with soft infantry out of sight...
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/02/19 08:26:57
tneva82 wrote: These are for t4 3+ w1 models? Howabout something like leman russ where inf pistol benefits(quite a lot) from holy trinity and multi damage useful and even flamer doubles damage.
Dunno. That would be target i would use ht for
I ran the numbers for the same thing back in beta. It was awful then, it's awful now. Besides which, I do this the next thing I'm going to be told is "well, realistically, they should always be in melta range and near a re-roll source..." and at that point the work gets more cumbersome than I have the time or resources for since I'm doing this simulations in Microsoft Excel...
Edit: Actually. Tell you what. If someone wants to pay me my hourly rate to work on this, I'll do whatever people want for sims so long as it doesn't interfere with my job and they aren't asking me to doctor the data somehow. It might take a few days - it took me about 6 hours to do that set of simulation and it didn't include any re-rolls. But I also won't release the data until I'm paid.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 12:24:57
tneva82 wrote: These are for t4 3+ w1 models? Howabout something like leman russ where inf pistol benefits(quite a lot) from holy trinity and multi damage useful and even flamer doubles damage.
Dunno. That would be target i would use ht for
I ran the numbers for the same thing back in beta. It was awful then, it's awful now. Besides which, I do this the next thing I'm going to be told is "well, realistically, they should always be in melta range and near a re-roll source..." and at that point the work gets more cumbersome than I have the time or resources for since I'm doing this simulations in Microsoft Excel...
Edit: Actually. Tell you what. If someone wants to pay me my hourly rate to work on this, I'll do whatever people want for sims so long as it doesn't interfere with my job and they aren't asking me to doctor the data somehow. It might take a few days - it took me about 6 hours to do that set of simulation and it didn't include any re-rolls. But I also won't release the data until I'm paid.
Nice work thus far, but I'm personally totally content with taking your word for it. You've shown you have a knack for analysis here and that's good enough for me.
Sadly, it's failure sucks because it was one of the few rules trying to encourage diverse weapon choices within a single unit. I am personally not a fan of the 40k wide tendency to select single purpose builds of some of these more customizable units. Seeing every Battle Sister in these lists basically just carrying two storm bolters feels totally lame. I see the same on the Deathwatch side, too - a unit that can equip a whole ton of weapons, but every single member is just carrying a storm bolter and a storm shield. Was truly hoping GW would have taken the time to make HT a differentiator and that this might lead to a reason to diversify within squads across the whole game.
Only thing I think we can do is continue to provide feedback. Is the FAQ email still the best place, or is there a more feedback specific email these days?
tneva82 wrote: These are for t4 3+ w1 models? Howabout something like leman russ where inf pistol benefits(quite a lot) from holy trinity and multi damage useful and even flamer doubles damage.
Dunno. That would be target i would use ht for
I ran the numbers for the same thing back in beta. It was awful then, it's awful now. Besides which, I do this the next thing I'm going to be told is "well, realistically, they should always be in melta range and near a re-roll source..." and at that point the work gets more cumbersome than I have the time or resources for since I'm doing this simulations in Microsoft Excel...
Edit: Actually. Tell you what. If someone wants to pay me my hourly rate to work on this, I'll do whatever people want for sims so long as it doesn't interfere with my job and they aren't asking me to doctor the data somehow. It might take a few days - it took me about 6 hours to do that set of simulation and it didn't include any re-rolls. But I also won't release the data until I'm paid.
Oh it's your time of course so do or don't do. Though curious why you chose t4 w1 models which is about last thing you would want to use it. Melta gets no benefit from stratagem and loses damage plus others gets less benefit than t7-t8 targets.
Dunno. If you bother to spend any time why not do the most logical target?
But as i don't see that stratagem as anythrng but situational buff anyway not big deal. Board situation matters more than math
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/19 14:13:05
The FAQ email is the only place I know of. The "problem" with Holy Trinity is that while most +1 To Wound stratagems just require you to use the right unit (or any unit if Heretic Astartes) HT requires a specific and sub-optimal weapons load out. It might be worth it if it was re-roll all Wound Rolls rather than +1 to Wound.
So, HT is an OK stratagem if you decide to arm a squad that way (go Narrative gaming) but not a way to build a squad for optimal effectiveness.
My thinking has shifted from squad level to detachment level, and I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts. With roughly the same units and same points, for an all comers list, would you choose...
Valorous Heart Battalion with Exos and screen plus Bloody Rose Battalion with Seraphim, Dominions, and Celestians...
Valorous Heart Spearhead with Bloody Rose Brigade...
Not 2nd one at least. Basic squads don't benefit from br nor heavy supports. Br is best fit for vanquard while vh has very few units that don't benefit at all from bit.
MacPhail wrote: My thinking has shifted from squad level to detachment level, and I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts. With roughly the same units and same points, for an all comers list, would you choose...
Valorous Heart Battalion with Exos and screen plus Bloody Rose Battalion with Seraphim, Dominions, and Celestians...
Valorous Heart Spearhead with Bloody Rose Brigade...
Valorous Heart Brigade with Bloody Rose Outrider?
I run VH Brigade with a BR Vanguard, so pretty close to the third option.
MacPhail wrote: My thinking has shifted from squad level to detachment level, and I'm curious as to everyone's thoughts. With roughly the same units and same points, for an all comers list, would you choose...
Valorous Heart Battalion with Exos and screen plus Bloody Rose Battalion with Seraphim, Dominions, and Celestians...
Valorous Heart Spearhead with Bloody Rose Brigade...
Valorous Heart Brigade with Bloody Rose Outrider?
I run VH Brigade with a BR Vanguard, so pretty close to the third option.
Valorous Heart Battalion with Bloody Rose Outrider I think it is the most efficient in low points.
You shouldn't be worried about the one bullet with your name on it, Boldric. You should be worried about the ones labelled "to whom it may concern"-from Blackadder goes Forth!
tneva82 wrote: These are for t4 3+ w1 models? Howabout something like leman russ where inf pistol benefits(quite a lot) from holy trinity and multi damage useful and even flamer doubles damage.
Dunno. That would be target i would use ht for
I ran the numbers for the same thing back in beta. It was awful then, it's awful now. Besides which, I do this the next thing I'm going to be told is "well, realistically, they should always be in melta range and near a re-roll source..." and at that point the work gets more cumbersome than I have the time or resources for since I'm doing this simulations in Microsoft Excel...
Edit: Actually. Tell you what. If someone wants to pay me my hourly rate to work on this, I'll do whatever people want for sims so long as it doesn't interfere with my job and they aren't asking me to doctor the data somehow. It might take a few days - it took me about 6 hours to do that set of simulation and it didn't include any re-rolls. But I also won't release the data until I'm paid.
Nice work thus far, but I'm personally totally content with taking your word for it. You've shown you have a knack for analysis here and that's good enough for me.
Sadly, it's failure sucks because it was one of the few rules trying to encourage diverse weapon choices within a single unit. I am personally not a fan of the 40k wide tendency to select single purpose builds of some of these more customizable units. Seeing every Battle Sister in these lists basically just carrying two storm bolters feels totally lame. I see the same on the Deathwatch side, too - a unit that can equip a whole ton of weapons, but every single member is just carrying a storm bolter and a storm shield. Was truly hoping GW would have taken the time to make HT a differentiator and that this might lead to a reason to diversify within squads across the whole game.
Only thing I think we can do is continue to provide feedback. Is the FAQ email still the best place, or is there a more feedback specific email these days?
Honestly? That mindset has been there almost since the beginning and it's not GW's fault - it's actually basic economics.
When list building, you have several things at play you must consider:
* Scarcity - Points or Power Level allotment; required units in detachments; a maximum number of detachments, a maximum number of units within each detachment; Rule of X, Command Points...
* Opportunity costs related to the mission/setting (competitive, ITC, narrative, etc.) and the previously mentioned "scare" items
* Comparative vs Absolute advantage (build for comparative)
Squads of 4 lascannons get taken over squads of a heavy bolter, lascannon, plasma cannon, and missile launcher because of all of this. Especially when it comes to comparative and absolute advantage. To think of this concept another way:
Two roommates each have 1 hour a night where they can work on papers or do laundry.
Roommate A can type 6 pages an hour and can run 6 loads of laundry
Roommate B can type 4 pages an hour and can run 6 loads of laundry
Roommate B should do the laundry, roommate A should type the papers.
Why?
Roommate A has an absolute advantage typing papers (6/hr vs 4), but Roommate B has a comparative advantage doing laundry. For every 30 minutes he spends working on papers (2 pages), it costs him 3 loads of laundry. But every 30 minutes Roommate A spends on laundry (3 loads), it costs 3 pages of papers. Basically, Roommate A has a larger opportunity cost than Roommate B does. If they each spend 30 minutes on both activities, you would have 5 pages of papers typed and 6 loads of laundry done. If they specialized, however, the pair would get 6 loads of laundry done and 6 pages of papers typed.
The same is true with your squads. By specializing your squads to focus on a task, they're getting a comparative (and potentially absolute) advantage over being built for multiple roles. I didn't play in Rogue Trader, but this specialization vs. generalization hasn't changed in the last 7 editions of the game. It's always better to specialize units for a specific task than to have them be generalists.
Also, even if roommate A could do 6 pages an hour and 8 loads of laundry, it's better for both of them to specialize, with Roommate A doing the papers and Roommate B doing the laundry. Roommate A is 50% better at doing papers (6 vs 4) while Roommate B is only 25% worse at doing laundry (6 vs 8). Split focus and you have 5 pages of papers typed and 7 loads of laundry washed, whereas specializing results in 6 pages of papers (maximum efficiency) and 6 loads of laundry washed (maximum possible efficiency through specialization).
Also, a unit with one of each heavy weapon just looks confused and awkward.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
tneva82 wrote: Oh it's your time of course so do or don't do. Though curious why you chose t4 w1 models which is about last thing you would want to use it. Melta gets no benefit from stratagem and loses damage plus others gets less benefit than t7-t8 targets.
Dunno. If you bother to spend any time why not do the most logical target?
But as i don't see that stratagem as anythrng but situational buff anyway not big deal. Board situation matters more than math
I chose what I chose because it gets maximum effectiveness out of the bolt pistols and hand flamers. Even with +1 to-wound, firing bolt pistols and hand flamers at tanks is almost pointless.
Previously mentioned Seraphim Squad, Plasma Pistol overcharged. Inferno pistols in "melta" range. No convictions, no Rites:
Mean damage: 4.540
Mode damage: 1 (1213 / 10,000)
Standard deviation: 3.465
-1st deviation: 2-8 damage (62.58%)
-2nd deviation: 0-11 damage (96.03%)
-Odds of 12+ damage: 3.97% (1:25)
-Odds of 0 damage: 11.98% (1:8)
-Max possible: 18 -- 0.02%, or 1:5,000
-Mean damage from Bolt Pistols and Hand Flamers: 0.959
With Holy Trinity, no convictions, no rites:
Mean damage: 6.574
Mode damage: 7 (1030 / 10,000)
Standard deviation: 3.760
-1st deviation: 3-10 damage (68.48%)
-2nd deviation: 0-14 damage (97.46%)
-Odds of 15+ damage: 2.36% (1:42)
-Odds of 0 damage: 2.91% (1:34)
-Max probable damage: 20 -- 0.01%, or 1:10,000
-Mean damage from Bolt Pistols and Hand Flamers: 1.887
15 bolt pistols, 1 overcharged plasma pistol, 4 inferno pistols in "melta" range:
Mean damage: 7.514 damage
Mode damage: 6 (947 / 10,000)
Standard deviation: 4.736 damage
-1st deviation: 3-12 damage (68.46%)
-2nd deviation: 0-16 damage (95.91%)
-Odds of 17+ damage: 4.09% (1:24)
-Odds of 0 damage: 6.54% (1:15)
-Maximum probable damage: 25 -- 0.04%, or 1:2,500
-Mean damage from Bolt Pistols: 0.5631
Based on that data, go ahead and take your Holy Trinity squads. I'll still do more damage with 4 inferno pistols and can spend a CP to use them through Burning Descent -- something you can't do with Holy Trinity. I'm getting almost 7 damage from my Plasma Pistol and Inferno Pistols without building for Holy Trinity. The Holy Trinity squad is getting about 4.7 damage from the same weapons. That's 48% more damage output without taking hand flamers and without spending a CP on Holy Trinity.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/20 00:51:14
Even from the perpective of wanting to encourage units with mixed loadouts, Holy Trinity still isn't what it should be.
If the squad has a mixed loadout, it's not so that it can put the flamer, meltagun, and boltgun into the same unit, it's so that it can shoot the meltagun at a tank and the flamer at a squad of infantry.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
tneva82 wrote: These are for t4 3+ w1 models? Howabout something like leman russ where inf pistol benefits(quite a lot) from holy trinity and multi damage useful and even flamer doubles damage.
Dunno. That would be target i would use ht for
I ran the numbers for the same thing back in beta. It was awful then, it's awful now. Besides which, I do this the next thing I'm going to be told is "well, realistically, they should always be in melta range and near a re-roll source..." and at that point the work gets more cumbersome than I have the time or resources for since I'm doing this simulations in Microsoft Excel...
Edit: Actually. Tell you what. If someone wants to pay me my hourly rate to work on this, I'll do whatever people want for sims so long as it doesn't interfere with my job and they aren't asking me to doctor the data somehow. It might take a few days - it took me about 6 hours to do that set of simulation and it didn't include any re-rolls. But I also won't release the data until I'm paid.
Nice work thus far, but I'm personally totally content with taking your word for it. You've shown you have a knack for analysis here and that's good enough for me.
Sadly, it's failure sucks because it was one of the few rules trying to encourage diverse weapon choices within a single unit. I am personally not a fan of the 40k wide tendency to select single purpose builds of some of these more customizable units. Seeing every Battle Sister in these lists basically just carrying two storm bolters feels totally lame. I see the same on the Deathwatch side, too - a unit that can equip a whole ton of weapons, but every single member is just carrying a storm bolter and a storm shield. Was truly hoping GW would have taken the time to make HT a differentiator and that this might lead to a reason to diversify within squads across the whole game.
Only thing I think we can do is continue to provide feedback. Is the FAQ email still the best place, or is there a more feedback specific email these days?
Honestly? That mindset has been there almost since the beginning and it's not GW's fault - it's actually basic economics.
When list building, you have several things at play you must consider:
* Scarcity - Points or Power Level allotment; required units in detachments; a maximum number of detachments, a maximum number of units within each detachment; Rule of X, Command Points...
* Opportunity costs related to the mission/setting (competitive, ITC, narrative, etc.) and the previously mentioned "scare" items
* Comparative vs Absolute advantage (build for comparative)
Squads of 4 lascannons get taken over squads of a heavy bolter, lascannon, plasma cannon, and missile launcher because of all of this. Especially when it comes to comparative and absolute advantage. To think of this concept another way:
Two roommates each have 1 hour a night where they can work on papers or do laundry.
Roommate A can type 6 pages an hour and can run 6 loads of laundry
Roommate B can type 4 pages an hour and can run 6 loads of laundry
Roommate B should do the laundry, roommate A should type the papers.
Why?
Roommate A has an absolute advantage typing papers (6/hr vs 4), but Roommate B has a comparative advantage doing laundry. For every 30 minutes he spends working on papers (2 pages), it costs him 3 loads of laundry. But every 30 minutes Roommate A spends on laundry (3 loads), it costs 3 pages of papers. Basically, Roommate A has a larger opportunity cost than Roommate B does. If they each spend 30 minutes on both activities, you would have 5 pages of papers typed and 6 loads of laundry done. If they specialized, however, the pair would get 6 loads of laundry done and 6 pages of papers typed.
The same is true with your squads. By specializing your squads to focus on a task, they're getting a comparative (and potentially absolute) advantage over being built for multiple roles. I didn't play in Rogue Trader, but this specialization vs. generalization hasn't changed in the last 7 editions of the game. It's always better to specialize units for a specific task than to have them be generalists.
Also, even if roommate A could do 6 pages an hour and 8 loads of laundry, it's better for both of them to specialize, with Roommate A doing the papers and Roommate B doing the laundry. Roommate A is 50% better at doing papers (6 vs 4) while Roommate B is only 25% worse at doing laundry (6 vs 8). Split focus and you have 5 pages of papers typed and 7 loads of laundry washed, whereas specializing results in 6 pages of papers (maximum efficiency) and 6 loads of laundry washed (maximum possible efficiency through specialization).
except if they're writing papers it's presumably for school and both of them need to write those damn papers
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Well next weekend there's supposed to be tournament though looks awfully lot like it will be cancelled(3 players atm). Got permission to proxy imagifiers a bit(guess with this amount of attendees organizer sure as hell can't afford to turn one away ) so here's list I'm taking if that actually gets couple more attendees(6 is minimum)
Spoiler:
Order of Pure Heart
Brigade - Valorous heart
HQ: Celestine(Warlord: beacon of faith) 160
HQ: Canoness(relic: Iron surplice of St. Istaela, plasma pistol, power sword, rod of office) 59
HQ: Missionary(autogun and laspistol, chainsword) 38
HQ(no slot): Inquisitor Coteaz
Elite: Imagifier(tale of stoic) 45
Elite: imagifier(tale of stoic) 45
Elite: 10xcelestian(2xmeltagun, superior w/power maul & combi melta, incensor cherub, simulcranum) 157
Elite: 6xsister repentia 78
Troop: 5xbattle sister(2xstorm bolter, superior w/chainsword&boltgun) 49
Troop: 5xbattle sister(2xstorm bolter, superior w/chainsword&boltgun) 49
Troop: 7xbattle sister(2xflamer, simulcranum, superior w/combi melta&chainsword) 95
Troop: 8xbattle sister(2xmeltagun, simulcranum, incensor cherub, superior w/combi flamer&chainsword) 118
Troop: 7xbattle sister(2xstorm bolter, simulcranum, superior w/combi melta&chainsword) 87
Troop: 6xbattle sister(2xstorm bolter, simulcranum, superior w/combi meltar&chainsword) 78
Fast: 10xdominion(4xstorm bolter, simulcranum, superior w/combi plasma&chainsword) 124
Fast: 5xseraphim(2xtwin inferno pistol, superior w/plasma pistol&power sword) 92
Fast: 5xseraphim(2xtwin inferno pistol, superior w/plasma pistol&power sword) 92
Fairly typical VH brigade I would assume except for only 2 exorcist but don't have 3rd yet.
Looking forward to getting another canoness so I'm not forced to take 160 pts celestine. Shes good but minimum's are pushing expensive for my brigades.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/21 13:23:31
I know you two are trying to be silly, but it doesn't change the base analogy and that it can be applied to wargaming. Which is basically that having units that specialize in different tasks will always perform better comparatively to generalist units.
Playing around with a faith based list, that I wanted to shoehorn triumph into but it seems to work.
-standard valorous heart brigade but with trinity+multimelta BSS squads with a simulacrum
-supported by a sacred rose supreme command, canoness with dice recycling loadout, triumph and a missionary, as well as a battle sanctum
-the above should recycle 2-3 dice per turn and generate an additional 3
-dialogus/triumph allow the BSS squads to move and shoot their multimeltas pretty much at will being able to sub in a 3+ for an autohit
By your reading, does the addition of an inquisitor prevent your army from getting sacred rites? I initially glossed over the wording and thought it wouldn't break the sacred rights requirements, but now I'm not so sure. The wording refers to abilities that require every model in an army to have an ability (combat doctrines, canticles), which is NOT the same as the sisters requirements of every model having specific faction keywords. I'm desperately hoping it would be fine, as I want to have Karamazov as my warlord in a sisters army but still get a sacred rite, because I feel they're really characterful.
Also, is it likely that 3 exorcists (Valorous heart and imagifiers) supported by sprinkled melta weapons in infantry squads (mostly inferno pistols) would be enough anti tank/monsters at 2000 points? I'm struggling a little to figure out where the killing power (for big enemies) comes from in this army.
By your reading, does the addition of an inquisitor prevent your army from getting sacred rites? I initially glossed over the wording and thought it wouldn't break the sacred rights requirements, but now I'm not so sure. The wording refers to abilities that require every model in an army to have an ability (combat doctrines, canticles), which is NOT the same as the sisters requirements of every model having specific faction keywords. I'm desperately hoping it would be fine, as I want to have Karamazov as my warlord in a sisters army but still get a sacred rite, because I feel they're really characterful.
Also, is it likely that 3 exorcists (Valorous heart and imagifiers) supported by sprinkled melta weapons in infantry squads (mostly inferno pistols) would be enough anti tank/monsters at 2000 points? I'm struggling a little to figure out where the killing power (for big enemies) comes from in this army.
I think it's clear that the intention is that it doesn't break it, GW just can't use consistent wording between codexes.
By your reading, does the addition of an inquisitor prevent your army from getting sacred rites? I initially glossed over the wording and thought it wouldn't break the sacred rights requirements, but now I'm not so sure. The wording refers to abilities that require every model in an army to have an ability (combat doctrines, canticles), which is NOT the same as the sisters requirements of every model having specific faction keywords. I'm desperately hoping it would be fine, as I want to have Karamazov as my warlord in a sisters army but still get a sacred rite, because I feel they're really characterful.
Also, is it likely that 3 exorcists (Valorous heart and imagifiers) supported by sprinkled melta weapons in infantry squads (mostly inferno pistols) would be enough anti tank/monsters at 2000 points? I'm struggling a little to figure out where the killing power (for big enemies) comes from in this army.
The killing power comes from the ability to use MD for the d6 damage.
other than that you need to use units like repentia.
sisters still suffer from the fact they have no "true hammer" unit.
Hello all, looking for a little advice for starting SoB and how to build my first few boxes. I want to go Bloody Rose and while I know that it won't be hyper-competitive to go with a single order for all my detachments, I'm not super interested in mixing orders as I plan to paint everything with the same paint scheme. Obviously I'll need some good melee dedicated units, but I'm also looking to start with a solid core of troops.
With that in mind, what should I start with? I'm thinking of getting maybe 3 boxes of sisters, to make 3x5 units of sisters (2 meltas, bare superior), a unit of celestians (how should I outfit them?), a unit of dominions (4 storm bolters, bare superior), 2 canonesses, and an imagifier. Does this make sense as a starting point? I also already have an old metal preacher/missionary I could use, as well as an inquisitor. I'm thinking I'd want to avoid armor entirely, in order to render opposing heavy weapons largely useless; rhinos aren't that tough to crack, and I don't know that it's worth it to load every unit into one. Of course I'm going to want Zephyrim and seraphim, as well as repentia, but I want to wait until the upcoming releases for those.
If I want to get something together for a 500 point army that will grow over time into a 2000 point force, does this make sense? Or should I build in a different direction?
Porphyrius wrote: Hello all, looking for a little advice for starting SoB and how to build my first few boxes. I want to go Bloody Rose and while I know that it won't be hyper-competitive to go with a single order for all my detachments, I'm not super interested in mixing orders as I plan to paint everything with the same paint scheme. Obviously I'll need some good melee dedicated units, but I'm also looking to start with a solid core of troops.
With that in mind, what should I start with? I'm thinking of getting maybe 3 boxes of sisters, to make 3x5 units of sisters (2 meltas, bare superior), a unit of celestians (how should I outfit them?), a unit of dominions (4 storm bolters, bare superior), 2 canonesses, and an imagifier. Does this make sense as a starting point? I also already have an old metal preacher/missionary I could use, as well as an inquisitor. I'm thinking I'd want to avoid armor entirely, in order to render opposing heavy weapons largely useless; rhinos aren't that tough to crack, and I don't know that it's worth it to load every unit into one. Of course I'm going to want Zephyrim and seraphim, as well as repentia, but I want to wait until the upcoming releases for those.
If I want to get something together for a 500 point army that will grow over time into a 2000 point force, does this make sense? Or should I build in a different direction?
I can agree about not wanting to multi Order the Sisters but I like Ebon Chalice for flaming goodness as well as the assault element of Bloody Rose. Thankfully, it has been easy to point to shooty things as EC and Stabby things as BR. I personally wouldn't outfit 2 meltas into 1 squad but then again I like using a heavy bolter to sit on an objective and let the girls carrying flamers get in close. The Celstians I either keep bare to soak bodyguard wounds or a power sword/ax on the superior to charge in before the Relic wielding Canoness comes in. And as EC, being able to soak MWs on a 5+ has been fun. Not having that with BR, you may want to keep them cheap. Lastly, I can see trying to deny AT weapons for your opponent but Repentia in a rhino just adds too many things for me to try running them. Not being shot right away (say by pure knight lists) +3 inches to get out helps them into charge range, and the rhino can soak overwatch. On another note, I have been hit and miss on Sacred Rites so I can say bringing SM Suppressors to kill overwatch has also been a good tool to keep in mind. And if nothing else, bring what you can play: as in if it's fun or you can better remember their rules you should try it.
My Sisters of Battle Thread
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/783053.page
Porphyrius wrote: Hello all, looking for a little advice for starting SoB and how to build my first few boxes. I want to go Bloody Rose and while I know that it won't be hyper-competitive to go with a single order for all my detachments, I'm not super interested in mixing orders as I plan to paint everything with the same paint scheme. Obviously I'll need some good melee dedicated units, but I'm also looking to start with a solid core of troops.
With that in mind, what should I start with? I'm thinking of getting maybe 3 boxes of sisters, to make 3x5 units of sisters (2 meltas, bare superior), a unit of celestians (how should I outfit them?), a unit of dominions (4 storm bolters, bare superior), 2 canonesses, and an imagifier. Does this make sense as a starting point? I also already have an old metal preacher/missionary I could use, as well as an inquisitor. I'm thinking I'd want to avoid armor entirely, in order to render opposing heavy weapons largely useless; rhinos aren't that tough to crack, and I don't know that it's worth it to load every unit into one. Of course I'm going to want Zephyrim and seraphim, as well as repentia, but I want to wait until the upcoming releases for those.
If I want to get something together for a 500 point army that will grow over time into a 2000 point force, does this make sense? Or should I build in a different direction?
That seems valid as a starting point. At 500 points you're only going to have one order, anyway, and as far as things go, I'm increasingly running mono-order lists because there's only a small number of units that want a different order [and they're slowly vanishing from my lists]
Exorcists are out only "reach out and touch someone" unit, and you'll probably find that if your entire AT selection is 12" range you'll just get kited and destroyed by someone with armor at 500 points. Consider including Rets. You're going to want them eventually anyway.
At 500 points either the Imagifier probably won't go as far as you're hoping. As BR, you might want to include the preacher over the second canoness if you keep the imagifier so your melee is A3 S4 AP1 [which is better than your shooting]
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/02/22 17:35:43
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
So working along my BR mechanized theme, I think I found something that will probably work for me as a goal to try to reach in the next few years (finances being the main limit here).
Spoiler:
Warlord: Canoness w/Blessed Blade, Plasma Pistol, Litanies of Faith, Beacon of Faith Canoness (Heroine) w/Beneficence, Inferno Pistol, Righteous Rage Canoness w/Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Rod of Office, Iron Surplice
Celestian Squad w/2x Storm Bolters, Power Maul Celestian Squad w/2x Storm Bolters, Power Maul Celestian Squad w/2x Storm Bolters, Power Maul Imagifier: Verified Saint, Tale of the Stoic, Tale of the Warrior
I still prefer the idea of mechanized. But this is, I think, fairly optimized mechanized as far as my theme goes. I kinda wanted to fit some Repentia in there, but I'm unsure as to how I would really want to do that... I feel Celestians are just a lot more adaptable and versatile even if Repentia can hit pretty hard with the Imagifier buffing them.
Am also working on a 1k and a 500 point version of it. I think I love what they did with Celestians too much to not have a unit of them per canoness, lol.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/02/23 02:35:31
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Also all 3 games been facing targets storm bolters have been facing suboptimal targets. Wounding on 5's or 6's and 3+ or better saves with soft infantry out of sight...
Microsoft Excel...
2500 pts Raven Guard, painted 