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BrianDavion wrote:
so regarding repenta, do people figure they're best marched up the board cheaply or tossed in a transport?

I would transport them. I've had fun using an Immolator to push my melee units up the board t1 while using it as a tank, but Rhinos are better transports

Lammia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
so regarding repenta, do people figure they're best marched up the board cheaply or tossed in a transport?

I would transport them. I've had fun using an Immolator to push my melee units up the board t1 while using it as a tank, but Rhinos are better transports

it'd be expensive but a 5 woman BSS squad in a immolator escorting a 10 strong repenta squad in a rhino might not be too bad, sue the immolator as a distraction carnifex

BrianDavion wrote:

Lammia wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
so regarding repenta, do people figure they're best marched up the board cheaply or tossed in a transport?

I would transport them. I've had fun using an Immolator to push my melee units up the board t1 while using it as a tank, but Rhinos are better transports

it'd be expensive but a 5 woman BSS squad in a immolator escorting a 10 strong repenta squad in a rhino might not be too bad, sue the immolator as a distraction carnifex

I generally chuck either 2× Arco squads or 1× Arcos and my Missionary in the VH Immolator...

Immolators are a LOT of points for what feels like not much gain... it might really be best to choose cheaper transports. Even Rhinos can absorb overwatch at least.

 Melissia wrote:
Immolators are a LOT of points for what feels like not much gain... it might really be best to choose cheaper transports. Even Rhinos can absorb overwatch at least.

Oh, they're as much a transport as a Land Raider(read: not at all) but Immolation Flamer + 10 d3 hits from the Arcos is enough damage on troops to keep shots on that unit and off Exos and Rhinos.

Plus, they'll explode when they die

Today I tried out a new idea and thought I’d get some feedback.

Won 2 games, my list had a BR Vanguard which included 3x 10-man squads of Celestians in a blob, supported by Missionary, Canoness and Imagifier giving +1Str, +1A and ignore -1AP. Being guarded by Celestians the BR Characters passed their wounds on and couldn’t be nailed.

The beauty of the setup is for a much lower price than Zephyrim, on attack 10 buffed Celestians and Superior with chainsword hit at Str4 with 42 attacks, their close combat weapons are AP-1 (BRB under Choose Melee Weapon), Canoness buff gives re-roll all missed hits shooting/melee, and the BR Strat and the Celestian Strat can increase it even more. Add a power maul on the Superior for taking on bigger baddies.

In 2 games my 30 Celestian blob with buffs took down nearly double their number of orcs with nearly a squad surviving, and against Tau made it to the Tau gunline and nearly rolled up the entire line after breaking in.

The buffs can get stronger, for example bringing a VH Canoness with a Casket Relic to reduce the opponents T by 1. Or bringing a psyker Inquisitor to shut down overwatch.

Just seeing if anyone has used their Celestians in more of a melee role like this.

 Melissia wrote:
So working along my BR mechanized theme, I think I found something that will probably work for me as a goal to try to reach in the next few years (finances being the main limit here).

Spoiler:

Warlord: Canoness w/Blessed Blade, Plasma Pistol, Litanies of Faith, Beacon of Faith
Canoness (Heroine) w/Beneficence, Inferno Pistol, Righteous Rage
Canoness w/Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Rod of Office, Iron Surplice

Celestian Squad w/2x Storm Bolters, Power Maul
Celestian Squad w/2x Storm Bolters, Power Maul
Celestian Squad w/2x Storm Bolters, Power Maul
Imagifier: Verified Saint, Tale of the Stoic, Tale of the Warrior

Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword

Seraphim Squad w/2x twin Inferno Pistols, Power Sword
Seraphim Squad w/2x twin Inferno Pistols, Power Sword
Seraphim Squad w/2x twin Inferno Pistols, Power Sword

Exorcist w/Exorcist Launcher
Exorcist w/Exorcist Launcher
Exorcist w/Exorcist Launcher

Transports: Rhino x6

I still prefer the idea of mechanized. But this is, I think, fairly optimized mechanized as far as my theme goes. I kinda wanted to fit some Repentia in there, but I'm unsure as to how I would really want to do that... I feel Celestians are just a lot more adaptable and versatile even if Repentia can hit pretty hard with the Imagifier buffing them.

Am also working on a 1k and a 500 point version of it. I think I love what they did with Celestians too much to not have a unit of them per canoness, lol.

At a glance it looks very solid for the points. I'd probably put half those meltas on Celestians due to their rerolls. Maybe swap a Seraphim for stormbolter Dominions to get in on the strat. Probably really fun at those lower values too!

I got in a closely fought game against Necrons today and managed a win after nearly tabling him in four turns. It was my first solid win against Necrons this edition after struggling against them. I'm very impressed with both Valorous Heart and Bloody Rose. I managed a Brigade and a Battlion and they were both solid in their way... hard to wear down, and very choppy respectively.

BrianDavion wrote:
so regarding repenta, do people figure they're best marched up the board cheaply or tossed in a transport?

Another idea is hiding in safety as counter attack purpose. Saves rhino costs and if you don'" have other assault elements single repentia squad in rhino is just target practice

Not sure I want to do Dominions. The problem is I'd either have to get another transport for them, or I'd have to load up all my characters in one Rhino to be popped quickly.

And unfortunately Dominions don't appear to give their scout ability to their transports any more so they'd literally just be there for the additional special weapons, and I think I'd prefer the anti-tank Seraphim. Certainly I have absolutely no use for trying for the Holy Trinity stratagem with this list.

As for meltaguns on the Celestians, the problem with that is my Celestians are going to be charging enemies, and having that many points of shooting intentionally stuck in melee is usually a bad idea.

 davidgr33n wrote:
Today I tried out a new idea and thought I’d get some feedback... Just seeing if anyone has used their Celestians in more of a melee role like this.

I definitely use them in a melee role, but not on that scale. I've been running seven of them in a Rhino with the buffing characters and the blender Canoness and they're great. I have been wishing for more, but last game I supplemented not with more Celestians, but with 3x5 stock BR BSS who arrived on foot just about the Celestians start to wither away from tanking wounds for the Canoness. It worked okay, and maybe better than okay considering the extra CP it brought in, but more Celestians is definitely a thing I'll consider for the future. I'm not surprised the build you describe managed those two big tallies against Tau and Orks. Celestians are just really good for their points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Not sure I want to do Dominions. The problem is I'd either have to get another transport for them...

As for meltaguns on the Celestians, the problem with that is my Celestians are going to be charging enemies, and having that many points of shooting intentionally stuck in melee is usually a bad idea.

I'm starting to like the idea of transporting Dominions... I might package a squad of them in a Rhino with a BSS with max melta and send one up each flank to harass and be dangerous to ignore.

Fair point on the melta Celestians. I ran mine without last game and did find myself wishing for some AT punch at one point, but that's because they had wandered off on their own.

 Melissia wrote:
So working along my BR mechanized theme, I think I found something that will probably work for me as a goal to try to reach in the next few years (finances being the main limit here).

Spoiler:

Warlord: Canoness w/Blessed Blade, Plasma Pistol, Litanies of Faith, Beacon of Faith
Canoness (Heroine) w/Beneficence, Inferno Pistol, Righteous Rage
Canoness w/Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Rod of Office, Iron Surplice

Celestian Squad w/2x Storm Bolters, Power Maul
Celestian Squad w/2x Storm Bolters, Power Maul
Celestian Squad w/2x Storm Bolters, Power Maul
Imagifier: Verified Saint, Tale of the Stoic, Tale of the Warrior

Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword
Battle Sister Squad w/2x Meltaguns, Chainsword

Seraphim Squad w/2x twin Inferno Pistols, Power Sword
Seraphim Squad w/2x twin Inferno Pistols, Power Sword
Seraphim Squad w/2x twin Inferno Pistols, Power Sword

Exorcist w/Exorcist Launcher
Exorcist w/Exorcist Launcher
Exorcist w/Exorcist Launcher

Transports: Rhino x6

I still prefer the idea of mechanized. But this is, I think, fairly optimized mechanized as far as my theme goes. I kinda wanted to fit some Repentia in there, but I'm unsure as to how I would really want to do that... I feel Celestians are just a lot more adaptable and versatile even if Repentia can hit pretty hard with the Imagifier buffing them.

Am also working on a 1k and a 500 point version of it. I think I love what they did with Celestians too much to not have a unit of them per canoness, lol.

I don't really like this list. By going for a fully mech Brigade, you end up with a 60 Sisters in minimum squads. They will lack in both punch and staying power once they unload from the Rhinos. They also won't be able to utilize Stratagems very well since they will never affect more than 5 models at a time.

Drop a Rhino, one Celestian Squad, and leave a Cannoness and two BBS (swap out the Meltaguns for Storm Bolters on these two) in the backfield with the Exorcist. You want the rerolls on the Exorcist anyway and you need some objective holders. You now have a bunch of points for adding a Missionary or Preacher to the advancing team for more melee punch along with buffing up the squad size of the two remaining Celestian squads to make them more effective and durable.

 alextroy wrote:
They will lack in both punch and staying power
[...]
Drop a Rhino, one Celestian Squad, and leave a Cannoness and two BBS (swap out the Meltaguns for Storm Bolters on these two) in the backfield with the Exorcist.

Aside from the fact that I'm not going to bring a Priest in, this would actually reduce my overall power. Having more bodies in the celestian squads by getting rid of one of the other celestian squads would remove a celestian power maul and two storm bolters, so it would be pretty sub-optimal. And leaving the BSS with the exorcists means they can't use their meltaguns effectively.

I actually was thinking of leaving the litanies canoness behind with the exorcists, since I want her to stay the entire game for that rerollable miracle die every turn. One of my options was to have two exorcists and a heavy bolter retributor squad to hang back, but was never sure aboutr it compared to having three exorcists.

 alextroy wrote:
. You now have a bunch of points for adding a Missionary or Preacher to the advancing team for more melee punch along with buffing up the squad size of the two remaining Celestian squads to make them more effective and durable.

Bigger squads with no special buffs are just softer targets. You take msu for durability. Big squads for stratagems

Also, separating them in to smaller squads means more storm bolters (or meltagun, if you want to put them on celestians, though for BR Celestians I would not) and power mauls/axes.

In having three celestian squads, I have the equivalent of 21 bolters and 3 power mauls across 15 models, with a total of 36 attacks on the charge plus 12 power maul attacks.

If I got rid of a squad and say had eight and nine in the remaining squads (need room for the two canonesses and the imagifier after all), I'd have 17 models sure... which equates to 21 bolters and two power mauls. A total of 45 attacks on the charge and 8 power maul attacks.

So the shooting phase would be identical, aside from being able to split fire better. But the melee would be much less impressive. The additional 9 s3 ap-1 attacks are definitely inferior to having 4 s5 ap-2 attacks for anything that's not a guardsman.

Since the shooting would be the same, even with The Passion taken in to consideration, that's only an additional 1.5 S3 AP-1 hits over the MSU setup, which is certainly not nothing. But the potential for additional power maul hits is way more important for me, and the MSU has an increase in 0.67 average additional power maul hits over the increase that the larger squads have, and that is much more likely to cause a kill than the S3 hit on a Marine.

I've put way too much thought in to my little plastic soldiers

I think it comes down to your intended strat usage. A larger unit of celestians can make better use of their reroll everything strat and the BR +1 to wound strat. Going MSU and avoiding the strats altogether to put your CP in other areas is perfectly valid as well imo.

BrianDavion wrote:
so regarding repenta, do people figure they're best marched up the board cheaply or tossed in a transport?

I think you could go either way with them. Putting them in a Rhino helps keep them safe at first because your opponent has to blow up the transport before he can work on the juicy contents, but that costs some points and really is only useful if you've got more mechanized elements in the list already. I'm starting to lean toward footslogging them lately. Take a Canoness with Indomitable Belief (+1 Shield of Faith save) and Celestine (another +1) with them and they have a 4++/5+++, plus you've saved the cost of any Rhinos your units might need. Of course, on an open board your Repentia will take a lot of fire, but if you've got some shooty elements moving up as well your opponent will have more targets than guns and will have to make choices as to which things to kill.

I was originally thinking of doing a mechanized list, and I still may try it, but nowadays I'm starting to think of doing something similar to what Jancoran posted a couple of pages ago with mostly foot troops (and 3 Exorcists) as I think in ITC play it'll give up fewer secondaries. Yes I know not everyone plays ITC, let's not open that can of worms again, but that's what my local tournament scene uses. Specifically I'm thinking of 2 big units of BR Repentia with their supporting cast (Celestine, Murder Canoness with Indomitable Belief, Whip Lady, Preacher) plus a 3-model unit of Mortifiers or Penitent Engines (probably Mortys) as my assault element, and a Brigade of VH as my shooty element. I'll have to play around in Battlescribe and see what I can throw together.

Melissia wrote:Also, separating them in to smaller squads means more storm bolters (or meltagun, if you want to put them on celestians, though for BR Celestians I would not) and power mauls/axes.

In having three celestian squads, I have the equivalent of 21 bolters and 3 power mauls across 15 models, with a total of 36 attacks on the charge plus 12 power maul attacks.

If I got rid of a squad and say had eight and nine in the remaining squads (need room for the two canonesses and the imagifier after all), I'd have 17 models sure... which equates to 21 bolters and two power mauls. A total of 45 attacks on the charge and 8 power maul attacks.

So the shooting phase would be identical, aside from being able to split fire better. But the melee would be much less impressive. The additional 9 s3 ap-1 attacks are definitely inferior to having 4 s5 ap-2 attacks for anything that's not a guardsman.

Since the shooting would be the same, even with The Passion taken in to consideration, that's only an additional 1.5 S3 AP-1 hits over the MSU setup, which is certainly not nothing. But the potential for additional power maul hits is way more important for me, and the MSU has an increase in 0.67 average additional power maul hits over the increase that the larger squads have, and that is much more likely to cause a kill than the S3 hit on a Marine.

I've put way too much thought in to my little plastic soldiers

Maelstrom808 wrote:I think it comes down to your intended strat usage. A larger unit of celestians can make better use of their reroll everything strat and the BR +1 to wound strat. Going MSU and avoiding the strats altogether to put your CP in other areas is perfectly valid as well imo.

Exactly. Less units means it is easier to stay in the character bubbles and the Stratagems impact more models. The reason to run all those BR Celestials is to get them into combat.

What is better? 1 more Power Maul or nearly double the impact when using Exceptional Proficiency (re-roll all hits and wounds) and/or Tear Them Down. Add in that the dual squads means you actually have more Celestians on the line and you can split the Stratagem Love without leaving a unit on the outside. I also think the S3 vs S5 Issue isn't that important when you have a Imagifer standing there saying "you're S 4, kill those marines!"

That is where the true power in 8th Edition comes from. Not the specific units by themselves, but the stacking of units, Convictions (or equivalents) Character Auras, and Stratagems. If you maximize those, you get more than then the sum of the parts. That's why so many Iron Hands armies run a 10-man Intercessor squad with Bolt Rifles. Because despite all that Iron Hands goodness on the Stalker-Pattern Bolt Rifles, there is nothing like getting double-shot by 10 double-tapping Intercessors.

Having fewer units also means it's easier to be focus-fired on. Regardless, the S5 vs S3 issue is definitely important, because S5/S6 are both still superior to S4, and the additional AP still counts regardless. Were you talking about a power axe instead of a power maul, you might be right (S5 and S6 are basically equivalent vs T4), but either way both have a superior AP value over basic attacks. The basic attacks are nice at ap-1, but additional AP is always useful against anything more armored up than Ork Boyz. Your argument regarding strategems is very slightly better, but Celestians already reroll all to-hit rolls natively (as logn as they're near a Canoness; and in my setup, they'd always be near one), and having one fewer unit isn't going to make a huge difference at a 2000 point game stratagem-wise, particularly not for a Brigade. Meaning I could save the stratagems for my Canonesses for something like Divine Intervention, or Deadly Descent for Seraphim. And Blessed Bolts is superb on Celestians with rerolled to-hit rolls from being near a canoness-- having three squads with storm bolters gives more options on when and where to use it.

Out of my own curiosity, I ran some numbers. Wounds inflicted in combat assuming Bloody Rose, Missionary, Canoness, Power Maul on Sister Superiors:

Just to be clear, I assume that's purely assault phase, and doesn't include things like shooting and the two extra storm bolters the two five-woman squads would have vs the one ten-woman squad?

That's fairly interesting and certainly lends credence to what I had in mind. I try not to overindulge on using cp for basic things.

What is everyones take on a four storm bolter minimum size Dominion squad. Not bad firepower for 55pts in my opinion.
What do I arm the superior with? I am thinking combi-flamer, or just bolter and chainsword.

 Melissia wrote:
Just to be clear, I assume that's purely assault phase, and doesn't include things like shooting and the two extra storm bolters the two five-woman squads would have vs the one ten-woman squad?

That's fairly interesting and certainly lends credence to what I had in mind. I try not to overindulge on using cp for basic things.

Purely assault. Shooting does favor 2 smaller squads of course, bearing in mind that that also comes with an increased points cost, although minor. Again, I think it shows that either approach has merit. Which approach is correct depends heavily on the composition of the rest of the list and intended CP usage.

True. Stratagems are valid reasons for 10 strong units. Not denying that. I just disagree with idea that 10 strong units are more durable. More durable than 5 yes but not more durable than 2x5 and with the way 40k rules work rather softer. No worry about having to split fire or overkill for the enemy and more morale casualties.

If you plan to use stratagems 10 strong squads certainly make more sense. Then it comes down more to your overall strategy where you expect to use your CP's aka do you have CP to use those stratagems.

 Orlanth wrote:
What is everyones take on a four storm bolter minimum size Dominion squad. Not bad firepower for 55pts in my opinion.
What do I arm the superior with? I am thinking combi-flamer, or just bolter and chainsword.

that is what I run because taking a third small seraphim squad seems to be a waste when I can only flaming descent twice per game and gotta fill up that brigade.

I mean I considered it. Mostly just because 4 storm bolters with blessed bolts can be pretty devastating. What mostly stopped me was that it would create the need for more transports for my mechanized list.

 Melissia wrote:
I mean I considered it. Mostly just because 4 storm bolters with blessed bolts can be pretty devastating. What mostly stopped me was that it would create the need for more transports for my mechanized list.

Isn't that an excuse for another Immo, and a good squad to put in one.

Anyway I am asking in general because I do not like current Sisters vehicles, other than the walkers and am planning a Femminid horde list, well a small one. My main concern is ratio of Sisters to heavy and special weapons. The girls are cheap, the wargear is not. This was a starter question.

 Orlanth wrote:


Anyway I am asking in general because I do not like current Sisters vehicles, other than the walkers and am planning a Femminid horde list, well a small one. My main concern is ratio of Sisters to heavy and special weapons. The girls are cheap, the wargear is not. This was a starter question.

my consideration has been to stack up on heavy weapons and ret squads/faith then have a huge number of guardsmen up front

you lose doctrines, but with faith fueled damage rolls on a rock hard backline that wastes typical anti tank weapons, it might work.

 Orlanth wrote:
Isn't that an excuse for another Immo, and a good squad to put in one.

The choice is between 168 points for a dominion squad and flamer immolator, or 183 points for a Rhino and two of said dominion squads.

The extra price gives you twice the blessed bolter firepower, instead of relying on the Immolator's firepower, and twice hte bodies. But what works for you depends on your list. Immolators are expensive as feth for what they deliver tho.

My thoughts on Dominions... I might add some bodies to the squads and use Vanguard to get them in range, or keep them small so they can share a Rhino with the tri-melta BSS. A block of three Dominion squads with maxed out stormbolters, a few extra meat shields, a Canoness and a Missionary to keep them from running, all in rapid fire range turn 1, with Blessed Bolts on one and maybe Divine Guidance for the rest, would be a cheap way to fill out a Brigade and throw a lot of dice. More realistically, though, is a Rhino on each flank, each with Dominions + Blessed Bolts and Melta BSS + Simulacra/Cherubim. I like the odds that someone in one of those Rhinos delivers an early game changer. 223 points each for the combo is expensive, but they cant be ignored and will draw fire from the Exos, and they might just break something shiny. Now that Exos have both anti tank and anti infantry, they can act as closers for the forward squads.

I use a VH Brigade with a BR Vanguard that is essentially my “Celestian Bomb.”

The Celestian bomb is 30 Celestians with support of:
Imagifier with stoic and warrior (ignores AP-1 and gives +1Str), Indomitable Belief WL trait (+1 Inv Save) and the Book of St Lucius (+3” aura range)

Canoness with Beneficience gives re-rolls of 1s to hit and has a ton of attacks (9A Str5 AP-3 D2 hitting on 2s) and can also Heroic Intervention

Missionary giving +1A

Remember that according to the BRB all models are assumed to have a generic CC weapon of Str user and AP0, so adding all buffs and Celestian stats with the Superior using a free chainsword we get for 30 Celestians:

126A at Str4 AP-1 which can then be buffed by Stratagems and a 3+/5++ saves

To my bomb I also add a unit of 9 Repentias to give them 4A at Str8 AP-4 and 5++/5+++ each

The beauty of Celestians is that they will still shoot all their weapons at BS3 with reroll all misses, so it’s not like they’re just a melee threat. I add cheap Stormbolters and sometimes combiplasmas to my Celestians.

The Imagifier and Canoness can’t be picked off by snipers due to the Bodyguard rule.

So this setup can cost between 430 to 550 points so it’s not cheap but you’d likely be paying for these units any way, so it’s one way of putting it all together for max punch power.

I just used this setup this past weekend and I can say it’s great for middle board control with Exos in the back and all my other Zephyrim and Seraphim and basic Sisters causing problems elsewhere.