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 Melissia wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:
Isn't that an excuse for another Immo, and a good squad to put in one.

The choice is between 168 points for a dominion squad and flamer immolator, or 183 points for a Rhino and two of said dominion squads.

The extra price gives you twice the blessed bolter firepower, instead of relying on the Immolator's firepower, and twice hte bodies. But what works for you depends on your list. Immolators are expensive as feth for what they deliver tho.

Ok. Thanks for that. Due to the underpants-on-head backward way the codex points system is presented I was yet to cost out the Immolator. I did total up the Exorcist though and am not sure. They seem expensive to me, and while powerful they wont stay on the table long and I think I need three or go home.
Anyone's thoughts on this?

They're definitely pricey. But the problem is Sisters have nothing to replace them. They are all we have for long-ranged anti-tank shooting.

If you want to sacrifice some high-end anti-tank firepower, you can always go with the cheaper variant, which is 30 points cheaper per exorcist for what basically amounts to incendiary rockets (48" Heavy 3d6, S5, AP-1, D1 for 140 points) instead of anti-tank (48" Heavy 3d3, S8, AP-3, D6 for 170 points) rockets.

Still have some heavy mid-strength firepower to pour down-range, but you'll be a lot more reliant on melta weaponry if you do that.

 Orlanth wrote:
I did total up the Exorcist though and am not sure. They seem expensive to me, and while powerful they wont stay on the table long and I think I need three or go home.
Anyone's thoughts on this?

VH Exorcists are probably the best unit in the Codex. Strat lets you ignore negative hit modifiers with one a turn (Alaitoc flyer players will love you...) They can ignore a lot of current SM meta AP and with MD to help ensure your damage rolls make your opponents cry. You will love them. Bring three.

Going first, enjoy the wondrous destructive melody.. Going second, pop cover strat and ignore a bunch of AP, then enjoy the wondrous destructive melody. Exorcists are worth the points for sure.

So fun fact triumph's petals of the bloody rose work on mortifiers. As well as a couple of stratagems. Embodied prophecy, moment of grace, holy rage (biggest useful one aside from double attacks imo), suffer not the witch, judgement of the faithful. May not be the greatest news but something that opens up more options

 Melissia wrote:
They're definitely pricey. But the problem is Sisters have nothing to replace them. They are all we have for long-ranged anti-tank shooting.

If you want to sacrifice some high-end anti-tank firepower, you can always go with the cheaper variant, which is 30 points cheaper per exorcist for what basically amounts to incendiary rockets (48" Heavy 3d6, S5, AP-1, D1 for 140 points) instead of anti-tank (48" Heavy 3d3, S8, AP-3, D6 for 170 points) rockets.

Still have some heavy mid-strength firepower to pour down-range, but you'll be a lot more reliant on melta weaponry if you do that.

I dislike GW's formulaic approach to points values, they should take a holistic approach and work down instead. The supposed anti-tank option is a far better buy. Heavy 3d6 is nice, but frankly Heavy 3d3 is pretty damn good anti infantry. The only thing I will say for the incendiary rockets is that they amount to a fairly decent anti tank weapon if shooting a tank, wheras the anti tank rockets are total overkill unless fired at a super heavy or a titan. 1d4chan reported that the upgraded Exorcist has the capability to one shot a warhound without extreme dice rolls.
I am looking at the anti-tank missiles are Terminator-B-Gone, or for wasting squads of walkers. Any super heavy out there would priority kill the Exorcist before the Exorcist could return the disfavour. 48" range is escapable for a well placed super heavy.

All in all I realluy have no choice but to take multiple Exorcists. I have my prefered alternates worked out.



I like the multiple missiles, it lets me be less picky about what a launcher is on a given day.



I also like the idea of a mobilep latyform variant. I thin k it would go nicely with my 100% footslogger sisters plus penitents.

 Orlanth wrote:

I dislike GW's formulaic approach to points values, they should take a holistic approach and work down instead. The supposed anti-tank option is a far better buy. Heavy 3d6 is nice, but frankly Heavy 3d3 is pretty damn good anti infantry. The only thing I will say for the incendiary rockets is that they amount to a fairly decent anti tank weapon if shooting a tank, wheras the anti tank rockets are total overkill unless fired at a super heavy or a titan. 1d4chan reported that the upgraded Exorcist has the capability to one shot a warhound without extreme dice rolls.
I am looking at the anti-tank missiles are Terminator-B-Gone, or for wasting squads of walkers. Any super heavy out there would priority kill the Exorcist before the Exorcist could return the disfavour. 48" range is escapable for a well placed super heavy.

5.8 wounds vs leman russ is hardly overkill. 1.555 wounds vs leman russ is hardly fairly decent.

48" reachesh pretty much anywhere on board by well placed exorcist. LOS is more of issue but if you can't see super heavy neither can he see you

And with an Exorcist, 5.8 average wounds has a very high degree of variability. You get there via multiple d6 damage rolls, which can easily one-shot a Leman Russ if lucky. And that is before a Miracle Dice gets added to the equation.

tneva82 wrote:

 Orlanth wrote:

I dislike GW's formulaic approach to points values, they should take a holistic approach and work down instead. The supposed anti-tank option is a far better buy. Heavy 3d6 is nice, but frankly Heavy 3d3 is pretty damn good anti infantry. The only thing I will say for the incendiary rockets is that they amount to a fairly decent anti tank weapon if shooting a tank, wheras the anti tank rockets are total overkill unless fired at a super heavy or a titan. 1d4chan reported that the upgraded Exorcist has the capability to one shot a warhound without extreme dice rolls.
I am looking at the anti-tank missiles are Terminator-B-Gone, or for wasting squads of walkers. Any super heavy out there would priority kill the Exorcist before the Exorcist could return the disfavour. 48" range is escapable for a well placed super heavy.

5.8 wounds vs leman russ is hardly overkill. 1.555 wounds vs leman russ is hardly fairly decent.

48" reachesh pretty much anywhere on board by well placed exorcist. LOS is more of issue but if you can't see super heavy neither can he see you

He’s obviously NOT a math hammer guy

Yeah, it's very variable. Thus the need for three of them.

At least exorcists are objectively better firepower than before, though I wish they didn't get their points toned up so high.

 alextroy wrote:
And with an Exorcist, 5.8 average wounds has a very high degree of variability. You get there via multiple d6 damage rolls, which can easily one-shot a Leman Russ if lucky. And that is before a Miracle Dice gets added to the equation.

True. Though at least with 3d3 shot worst of variance goes down. One of my armies is necrons and THAT is high variance shooting...

Though at least necron one wounds on 3+ vs russ unlike sister 4+. But still d6 shots at d6 damage=3 dda is pretty much norm.

(btw 5.14 or so is average damage for dda vs russ capping out over 12 damage in one go. 11.52% odds of one shotting. Of course exorcist is bit different but ball park is probably around same).

Miracle dice of course helps but not something you can quarantee to get high one's and only 1 dice per turn for the 3 exorcist anyway. and 6's I like saving for inv saves sometimes anyway

Exorcist vs Russ, no stratagems, no cover, no buffs.

Median 5.825 damage
Mode: 0 damage (1606 / 10000)
StDev: 4.655

1st deviation: 2-10 damage (63.01%)
2nd deviation: 0-15 damage (96.12%)
Odds of doing 16+ damage: 3.88%, or ~1:26
Odds of 20+ damage (4 deviations): 0.97%, or about 1:103
Odds of 0 damage: 16.06%, or ~1:6
Max probable damage: 30 -- 0.01%, or 1:10,000

Not everything is a Russ.

However when you roll multiple D6 for damage and number of shots you will get a wide range of outcome. However that is part of the game.

To me the anti-tank missiles are a neat way to eliminate Terminator squads or equivalent. Something AP0 bolters might struggle with.

Not everything is a Russ, but an Exorcist still isn't overkill on your average tank/MC.

Assumed average tank/MC defenses: T7, 3+ save

Median: 8.054 damage
Mode: 6 (849 / 10,000)
StDev: 5.331
1st deviation: 3-13 damage (68.91%)
2nd deviation: 0-18 damage (96.13%)
Odds of 19+ damage: 3.87%, or ~1:26
Odds of 25+ damage (4th deviation): 0.51%, or ~1:196
Odds of 0 damage: 7.38%, or ~1:14
Max probable damage: 33 -- 0.01%

A median damage if 8 isn't really overkill. It doesn't even kill most tanks. These numbers don't change if you assume an average toughness of 6 with a 3+ save.

As for conflagration rockets being used against tanks, the numbers are far worse.

Against anything with T6-9, 3+
Median: 1.5606 damage
Mode: 1 (3300 / 10000)
StDev:1.229

1st deviation: 1-2 damage (58.84%)
2nd deviation: 0-4 damage (98.16%)
Odds of 5+ damage: 1.84%, or ~1:54
Odds of 0 damage: 20.52%, or ~1:5
Maximum probable damage: 8 -- 0.01%


Conflagration rockets aren't killing any vehicles except maybe sentinels, Penitent Engines, War Walkers, and Mortifiers, and even then the odds are fairly low.

Ok, thanks for that.

Can you confirm which ammo to use against Tyranid Warriors and Terminators please.

Taikishi wrote:
Not everything is a Russ, but an Exorcist still isn't overkill on your average tank/MC.

Assumed average tank/MC defenses: T7, 3+ save

Median: 8.054 damage

I don't think i've fired an exorcist once yet and done less than 10 damage that wasn't a complete whiff

miracle dice making your first wound that gets through a 5 or 6 is a hell of a thing

None of my data includes Miracle Dice, re-rolls, or stratagems (except where the stratagem is required in comparison, such as Holy Trinity). It's just easier to sim that way since I have no way of knowing what my miracle dice pool might be both in terms of quantity and results.

Yeah, you shouldn't expect random posters to do that kind of super-complex simulation.

 Grundz wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
Not everything is a Russ, but an Exorcist still isn't overkill on your average tank/MC.

Assumed average tank/MC defenses: T7, 3+ save

Median: 8.054 damage

I don't think i've fired an exorcist once yet and done less than 10 damage that wasn't a complete whiff

miracle dice making your first wound that gets through a 5 or 6 is a hell of a thing

My three exorcists usually knock down 1-2 vehicle targets per turn, and it's usually along the lines of one does okay and frags an target, one uses a miracle dice to get a good result, and one fails miserably, usually trying to finish off the one of the other one's targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, you shouldn't expect random posters to do that kind of super-complex simulation.

I could do it, but my MATLAB license is currently expired and I need to renew it. How existentially important is it to know?

 Grundz wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
Not everything is a Russ, but an Exorcist still isn't overkill on your average tank/MC.

Assumed average tank/MC defenses: T7, 3+ save

Median: 8.054 damage

I don't think i've fired an exorcist once yet and done less than 10 damage that wasn't a complete whiff

miracle dice making your first wound that gets through a 5 or 6 is a hell of a thing

Well let's see. Today:

First round. First exorcist caused 4 wounds. I got 4 hits, 2 wounds, he saved 1(target was russ). Didn't have higher than 4 on MD(well I only had 2 MD anyway being first turn). Other exorcist whiffed utterly.
Round 2. Now both tanks are degraded to hit on 4+. Other tank caused 4 wounds to demolisher(again 4 highest MD which was used to secure one wound), other whiffed completely again.

Round 3. Well first exorcist was dead, other whiffed third time in row.

Round 4. Second exorcist finally caused 4 damage. On flip side after opponents turn that thing was STILL alive having spent 4 turns in face of 2 catachan leman russ with lascannon hull weapon and was still alive with 3 wounds.

Wounding on 4+ isn't that easy. Luckily I didn't need that much. After 3 turns I had only taken down one russ and 1 warglaive(2 mortifiers got seriously pissed off by being charged by 1) and caused some damage to demolisher. But I had weathered without too much damage and then was able to get into combat with stuff. Celestine in particular was very useful in this.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
How existentially important is it to know?

Not enough to pay you, so... you know, not that important

tneva82 wrote:

Well let's see. Today:

First round. First exorcist caused 4 wounds. I got 4 hits, 2 wounds, he saved 1(target was russ). Didn't have higher than 4 on MD(well I only had 2 MD anyway being first turn). Other exorcist whiffed utterly.
Round 2. Now both tanks are degraded to hit on 4+. Other tank caused 4 wounds to demolisher(again 4 highest MD which was used to secure one wound), other whiffed completely again.

Round 3. Well first exorcist was dead, other whiffed third time in row.

Round 4. Second exorcist finally caused 4 damage.

Wounding on 4+ isn't that easy. Luckily I didn't need that much. After 3 turns I had only taken down one russ and 1 warglaive(2 mortifiers got seriously pissed off by being charged by 1) and caused some damage to demolisher. But I had weathered without too much damage and then was able to get into combat with stuff. Celestine in particular was very useful in this.

The 4+ to wound can certainly be a problem, I'm "usually" shooting at T7, vs guard I would be saving dice for the turn 2-3 seraphim drop and tie up all the tanks with a long charge+consolidate

well I didn't frankly have good dice for ds charges anyway for t2 drop anyway.

But that's all right. I got rid of one russ and he was struggling to keep me from simply getting close and on t3 with celestine being unleashed he suddenly had his hands too full with sisters and on turn 4 I basically degraded 2 of his tanks and tagged 3(Well basilisk should have died but opponent misremembered it to have 12 wounds. I thought 11 but didn't want to press it as game was about wrapped up and indeed this was last turn we played anyway before he threw in towel).

This with somewhat bad dice rolls. Seraphim squad #2 failed to get even one wound to basilisk. 4 shots, hit on 3+, wound on 3+ and nothing

He had serious issue with not having really anything to prevent my sisters from simply marching up field and then have tons of unit in his face. He got locked out of several objectives, I could control them, had total "no go" area for him in center making area denial card for him hopeless(good luck clearing multiple units of VH sisters...) and easy 2 vp's for me.

Casualty wise I was getting rid of his infantry fast but only getting machine rolling so to speak on turn 4 but board control + simply swarming him with too many units for him to prevent carried the day. Turn 5 he would be in combat with every single tank that was still alive which wasn't that many anymore. Celestine was chewing through punisher slow and steady, Corteaz was doing his job and that basilisk wouldn't survive even with extra wound he gained

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, you shouldn't expect random posters to do that kind of super-complex simulation.

You're right, you shouldn't. Especially when said poster only has Excel to perform these simulations using randbetween functions to simulate d6 rolls and is an unpaid volunteer

Quite honestly, I'm more concerned with dispelling bad information or getting out information to support someone's claim. In this case, those claims were Conflagration rockets are good against tanks (they aren't) and Exorcists overkill tanks (on average, they don't) In order to simulate miracle dice I'd basically have to simulate at least the roll and then put in 90,000-180,000 "if-then" statements on using said miracle die since each column would have to know if the die had already been used or not.

I would describe them as light anti-tank at best. Conflagration Rockets will help you deal with things like Sentinels down-range in the same way Heavy Bolters would (which makes sense, as they have the same strength and AP of a heavy bolter).

Taikishi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, you shouldn't expect random posters to do that kind of super-complex simulation.

You're right, you shouldn't. Especially when said poster only has Excel to perform these simulations using randbetween functions to simulate d6 rolls and is an unpaid volunteer

Quite honestly, I'm more concerned with dispelling bad information or getting out information to support someone's claim. In this case, those claims were Conflagration rockets are good against tanks (they aren't) and Exorcists overkill tanks (on average, they don't) In order to simulate miracle dice I'd basically have to simulate at least the roll and then put in 90,000-180,000 "if-then" statements on using said miracle die since each column would have to know if the die had already been used or not.

I'd probably just set the decision be to exclusively use it for the first damage roll that comes up if it's 4 or higher, and ignore it if it isn't. This can be accomplished with a integer that's set to zero in every loop so even though it tries to use the MD result every time it loops through calculating damage, it only applies it the first time.

Melissia wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
How existentially important is it to know?

Not enough to pay you, so... you know, not that important

It's okay, I knew it wasn't existentially important and don't expect a forum to buy me a matlab license to run mathhammer. I'm intending to wait until the department covers the cost, but for now I'm mildly frustrated by my lack of MATLAB.

Just watched a battle report on YouTube between sisters and tau. The sisters list was very sub optimal with multiple immolators and a distinct lack of troops or imagifiers. Whereas the Tau were slightly better equipped with a riptide with broadsides and drones etc as usual.

I kept wincing as the sisters player forgot the valorous heart rule which gives stuff a 6 plus fnp which would have saved him do many times. Another thing which was massively clear was that imagifiers are clearly key. So many times he was hit by ap2 weapons which would have been hugely neutered by imagifier support.

On the subject of excorcists though they were very good indeed and got plenty of kills.

An interesting game to watch but also painful as the sisters player hardly used any decent stratagems and basically spunkef all his cp on re rolls which is a massive waste I feel.

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, you shouldn't expect random posters to do that kind of super-complex simulation.

It looks like it came from an App.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Just watched a battle report on YouTube between sisters and tau. The sisters list was very sub optimal with multiple immolators and a distinct lack of troops or imagifiers. Whereas the Tau were slightly better equipped with a riptide with broadsides and drones etc as usual.

I kept wincing as the sisters player forgot the valorous heart rule which gives stuff a 6 plus fnp which would have saved him do many times. Another thing which was massively clear was that imagifiers are clearly key. So many times he was hit by ap2 weapons which would have been hugely neutered by imagifier support.

On the subject of excorcists though they were very good indeed and got plenty of kills.

An interesting game to watch but also painful as the sisters player hardly used any decent stratagems and basically spunkef all his cp on re rolls which is a massive waste I feel.

That's basically how I feel if I ever watch battle report on youtube. I don't really ever actually watch them on my own, but one of my friends does so more than he ever plays. I always feel like I or any of the people I know could play better than this, and when I get forwarded ones they're always playing fluffy or some gak.

Taikishi wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Yeah, you shouldn't expect random posters to do that kind of super-complex simulation.

You're right, you shouldn't. Especially when said poster only has Excel to perform these simulations using randbetween functions to simulate d6 rolls and is an unpaid volunteer

Quite honestly, I'm more concerned with dispelling bad information or getting out information to support someone's claim. In this case, those claims were Conflagration rockets are good against tanks (they aren't) and Exorcists overkill tanks (on average, they don't) In order to simulate miracle dice I'd basically have to simulate at least the roll and then put in 90,000-180,000 "if-then" statements on using said miracle die since each column would have to know if the die had already been used or not.

If people ask for advice on threads some people ignore it, some write a line, some write a long fairly complete in depth reply, often taking half an hour or more. I am in the latter category, and dont get paid either.

Rogerio134134 wrote:
Just watched a battle report on YouTube between sisters and tau. The sisters list was very sub optimal with multiple immolators and a distinct lack of troops or imagifiers. Whereas the Tau were slightly better equipped with a riptide with broadsides and drones etc as usual.

I kept wincing as the sisters player forgot the valorous heart rule which gives stuff a 6 plus fnp which would have saved him do many times. Another thing which was massively clear was that imagifiers are clearly key. So many times he was hit by ap2 weapons which would have been hugely neutered by imagifier support.

On the subject of excorcists though they were very good indeed and got plenty of kills.

An interesting game to watch but also painful as the sisters player hardly used any decent stratagems and basically spunkef all his cp on re rolls which is a massive waste I feel.

With imagifier only real gun tau has to worry is riptide ion vs exorcist. Actually tau hard counters then exorcist pretty well. Drones negate exorcist shooting and ion cannon(especially relic one) blows exorcist in no time. But sister infantry hard counters tau army