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Taikishi wrote:
Based on today's article, we're most likely losing Blade of Admonition to Crusade only. I'm also a bit angry that instead of getting a generic saint for those who may not want to use Celestine in matched play we're getting Crusade-only rules for saints.

I feel like with some of the crusade stuff in the codex's that have them its rules that could have easily been main rules but was sectioned off for narative players. Like Dark Eldar poisons is basically the same thing as DG plague weapon upgrades but its crusade only for Dark Eldar.

I skipped the article because i have 0 interest in crusade but its a shame iv wanted generic saints as an option for a long time for regular play.

Understandable. I had a small rant on B&C about it, especially since there are non-Ecchlessiarchy, non-Sisters saints. I would have been fine with something along the lines of "this is a model for a generic saint and the rules for it" combined with Crusade getting "here's how your character can become a saint" in the same vein as how Marines can become Dreads in Crusade.

Someone else suggested there could be an upgrade we haven't seen (I doubt it), but that isn't even close to what I was hoping for. I was personally hoping for something more in the realm of fluff and power of the Sanguinor or a Daemon Prince. Totally missed opportunity and I would gladly have given up either or both of our new special characters for it.

Which is another thing that miffs me: all our SCs are Order Agnostic (which isn't necessarily a bad thing) or Martyred Lady and the trend seems to be continuing. If you're going to create new characters, why not also create some for Valorous Heart, Bloody Rose, Argent Shroud, Sacred Rose, and Ebon Chalice so those players can also have a unique character or two to use that isn't Celestine/the Triumph/Stern/Vahl?

New Order details: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/06/04/faithful-serenity-pure-rage-or-just-plain-ol-fire-pick-the-holy-order-thats-perfect-for-your-adepta-sororitas/

Not too many big changes, I tried to summarize below.

MARTYRED LADY - Conviction changed slightly - units below starting strength (instead of units that have lost models) add +1 to hit rolls. Stratagem is the same. Changes to the Shield Bearer warlord trait; instead of save +1, reduce damage by 1; miracle die for losing the warlord is automatically a 6, miracle die for Sacrifice or for losing the warlord is a 6.

VALOROUS HEART - Conviction steals the 5+ FNP for mortal wounds from Ebon Chalice; reduce AP of AP -1 or -2 attacks by 1 (losing the stack with Imagifier?); loses 6+ FNP. Blind Faith stratagem now ignores all modifiers to hit roll, BS or WS. Impervious to Pain warlord trait now lets the warlord heal when performing an act of faith, as well as keeping their 5+ FNP.

BLOODY ROSE - Conviction changed slightly, AP +1 on melee weapons only when charging, charged, heroically intervened. Tear Them Down stratagem now automatically wounds on a hit roll of 6, instead of giving +1 to wound. Blazing Ire warlord trait is unchanged.

EBON CHALICE - Loses the 5+ FNP for mortals, instead gaining the ability to select TWO Sacred Rites, instead of rolling randomly. Maintains their ability to discard a miracle die to consider another a 6. Big change to Cleansing Flame stratagem - instead of automatically getting max shots, now adds +4" to the range of flame weapons, flame wound roll of 4+ adds 1 mortal wound with a cap of 3 mortal wounds per phase. Terrible Knowledge warlord trait now gives a chance to refund CP on a 5+ instead of granting D3, first Miracle die you generate is still automatically a 6.

ARGENT SHROUD - When making a normal move or advancing, counts as Remain Stationary. Additionally, can re-roll 1 wound roll or 1 hit roll when selected to shoot or fight. Faith is Our Shield stratagem can now be used in any phase, and grants a 4+ FNP against mortals, instead of a 5+ only in the psychic phase. Selfless Heroism looks like it was changed to straight fighting first in the fight phase, regardless of whether the warlord was charged or heroically intervened.

SACRED ROSE - Gain new miracle die on 4+ instead of 5+ when using an Act of Faith, Overwatch ability removed. Emperor's Judgment stratagem now grants one unit a blanket additional hit on 6s, instead of only with bolt weapons. Substantial change to the Light of the Divine warlord trait - if the warlord performs an Act of Faith, 1 dice used is a 6, and a Core unit within 6" can shoot even if it fell back; used to be a automatically gaining a miracle die if using an Act of Faith.

Martyred Lady isn't the same. Before, the conviction explicitly allowed you to bring a unit back to full strength and retain the bonus to-hit. This is no money the case per the article.

Further, Bloody Rose now only gains the AP bonus to melee attacks the turn you charge, are charged, or perform a Heroic Intervention. Valorous Heart no longer gets a blanket 6+++.

Taikishi wrote:
Martyred Lady isn't the same. Before, the conviction explicitly allowed you to bring a unit back to full strength and retain the bonus to-hit. This is no money the case per the article.

Further, Bloody Rose now only gains the AP bonus to melee attacks the turn you charge, are charged, or perform a Heroic Intervention. Valorous Heart no longer gets a blanket 6+++.

Thanks for the catch! I've updated my post. I'm at work and didn't have the Codex in front of me.

Archebius wrote:

Taikishi wrote:
Martyred Lady isn't the same. Before, the conviction explicitly allowed you to bring a unit back to full strength and retain the bonus to-hit. This is no money the case per the article.

Further, Bloody Rose now only gains the AP bonus to melee attacks the turn you charge, are charged, or perform a Heroic Intervention. Valorous Heart no longer gets a blanket 6+++.

Thanks for the catch! I've updated my post. I'm at work and didn't have the Codex in front of me.

Also the OOML stratagem changed from reroll 1s to hit to +1 to wound.

Yeah, it is also only against that unit that killed the character. But it is a very powerful 1CP to have a full army +1 to wound (in shooting and melee) against 1 unit. If say a LoW, or super unit killed your character you are set for the rest of the game.

Looks like BR is still the go-to for melee, even if it's been watered down slightly. Hand Flamer Seraphim are most likely cabbage now, also, although with that EC stratagem there could be some play there. VH has been nerfed into the dirt.

Those are my hot takes, but definitely do not take them as gospel. Just my opinions, and I'd love to be proven wrong.

Well retributors have allegedly gone down in points so the likelyhood is they have lost the move and shoot ability. This makes Agent shroud amazing (move out of a rhino, advance then shoot for a potential 39" threat range from behind a wall). The free re roll is also nice as you can choose either the hit or wound which is great.

I think this will be a staple for the shooting element for your army whilst your combat element will still be BR of course.
Personally I really like the 6's are auto wounds, the +1 to wound was very powerful but with the number of attacks you get from, say, a large unit of Zephrym, you statistically to high T targets still do plenty of wounds!

 KillswitchUK wrote:
Well retributors have allegedly gone down in points so the likelyhood is they have lost the move and shoot ability. This makes Agent shroud amazing (move out of a rhino, advance then shoot for a potential 39" threat range from behind a wall). The free re roll is also nice as you can choose either the hit or wound which is great.

I think this will be a staple for the shooting element for your army whilst your combat element will still be BR of course.
Personally I really like the 6's are auto wounds, the +1 to wound was very powerful but with the number of attacks you get from, say, a large unit of Zephrym, you statistically to high T targets still do plenty of wounds!

It's interesting that you bring up zephyrim because they actually hate the change. They have native reroll to wound, they don't get much in the way of benefit from auto-wounding. This is a very significant nerf for them.

Repentia, on the other hand, have built in reroll to HIT so against higher toughness targets this will be very strong for them.

Exactly, they have a re-roll to wound. Sure, it is a nerf but its still a good strat. I'm sure there might be more. Don't get me wrong, I think we'd all prefer +1 to wound but it's not a huge nerf, and still a great strat to use for them.

Im going to guess Repentia probably wont get much support this time around as they were too strong before?

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Looks like BR is still the go-to for melee, even if it's been watered down slightly. Hand Flamer Seraphim are most likely cabbage now, also, although with that EC stratagem there could be some play there. VH has been nerfed into the dirt.

Those are my hot takes, but definitely do not take them as gospel. Just my opinions, and I'd love to be proven wrong.

VH are better in ways that matter.

I just wonder how tales will be affected

Lammia wrote:

 ZergSmasher wrote:
Looks like BR is still the go-to for melee, even if it's been watered down slightly. Hand Flamer Seraphim are most likely cabbage now, also, although with that EC stratagem there could be some play there. VH has been nerfed into the dirt.

Those are my hot takes, but definitely do not take them as gospel. Just my opinions, and I'd love to be proven wrong.

VH are better in ways that matter.

I just wonder how tales will be affected

Pretty much this, going from ignores -1 to reduces -1 or -2 by 1 is a pretty significant buff, pretty much canceling out losing the 6+++. Whether it's better or worse honestly depends on the tales.

The 6+++ is now a 5+++ vs mw which is better on the hits you want it on


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And the WL trait looks fun now

Ebon Chalice auto 6 shots for flamers got moved to a general strat AND affects adeptus ministorum units instead of just <Order> (i.e. penitent engines and mortifiers).


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Lammia wrote:
The 6+++ is now a 5+++ vs mw which is better on the hits you want it on


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And the WL trait looks fun now

In AoS the 5+++ against mortals would be way better than a 6+ FNP, but 40k just doesn't have very many mortal wounds bouncing around (regardless of what the internet thinks). It'll make us even better against psychic armies and will only improve as time goes on and mortal wounds become more common,but as it stands it's a moderate downgrade; which is fortunately counteracted by the improvement to the ignore rend ability.

That's true. But there's more mw popping up and it means we get a worthwile save vs all damage

Lammia wrote:
That's true. But there's more mw popping up and it means we get a worthwile save vs all damage

Doesn't really matter anymore. The book is gak, so who cares. Run ebon chalice with nothing but Arcos if you want, it's not gonna matter.

Yeah, those changes largely hurt.

St C heal crazyness is back and everything else takes a hit.

Though Ag Shroud can make a brigade filled out with BSS with 1 MM each that looks fun

I think you guys really need to not jump to conclusions so soon until you have seen the whole codex and also seen the army in action. I just watched a battle report online of the new Sisters vs the new Admech. It was a fight down to round 5 with both sides giving as good as they got. From that battle report, I didn't get the impression that the new Sisters were weak by any means. And in that battle report, the Sisters army wasn't even using the new models like those new gundams. You can also see the battle report online. Its by tabletop tactics and its on youtube.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I think you guys really need to not jump to conclusions so soon until you have seen the whole codex and also seen the army in action. I just watched a battle report online of the new Sisters vs the new Admech. It was a fight down to round 5 with both sides giving as good as they got. From that battle report, I didn't get the impression that the new Sisters were weak by any means. And in that battle report, the Sisters army wasn't even using the new models like those new gundams. You can also see the battle report online. Its by tabletop tactics and its on youtube.

I also saw that battle report and let me tell you, neither of those armies were examples of what those codexes are capable of. Those were fun and fluffy lists, played by people more interested in putting on a good show than winning (as they absolutely should, being youtubers) which makes for a really entertaining batrep and would make an awesome locals game, but isn't at all representative of how those armies play in a competitive environment.

Yeah, that ad mech list is nowhere near competitive. It seems difficult to come up with a list in the new sisters book that a competitive ad mech list doesn't utterly obliterate...but that's true for almost all factions, suggesting the problem is more with the new ad mech book than the sisters book.

That said, a number of the big nerfs to the face of basically everything that used to be good in the 8th edition book seems excessive and like somebody with a chip on their shoulder designed this book - or just a bunch of marketing execs who want existing sisters players to have to rebuy their armies almost wholesale.

Do we like Morvenn anymore now that we know she takes out roughly 2 units/turn?

She's a fundamentally stupid unit IMO. "Just generically good at literally everything with no weaknesses of any kind" is a terrible way to design units. They'll always either be auto-takes if they're pointed to move or never-takes if they aren't, and they don't make for interesting gameplay.

I mean look at her: halves damage, therefore not susceptible to high damage weapons. 4+++ vs mortals, so not susceptible to mortals. 2+/4++, so not susceptible to plink damage either. Character protected. Has two missile launchers + a heavy bolter on steroids, so top-tier shooting for a character, and can shoot in melee as well. Good if not great melee, with both horde-clearing and elite-clearing profiles, so not vulnerable to tarpitting. Rerolls hits and wounds, and can give it to another unit too. It's literally like they just tried to pile every single thing onto a unit so it would be effective in every possible circumstance.

I can see everyone getting sick to the back teeth of her very soon. Just such boring design.

yukishiro1 wrote:
She's a fundamentally stupid unit IMO. "Just generically good at literally everything with no weaknesses of any kind" is a terrible way to design units. They'll always either be auto-takes if they're pointed to move or never-takes if they aren't, and they don't make for interesting gameplay.

I mean look at her: halves damage, therefore not susceptible to high damage weapons. 4+++ vs mortals, so not susceptible to mortals. 2+/4++, so not susceptible to plink damage either. Character protected. Has two missile launchers + a heavy bolter on steroids, so top-tier shooting for a character, and can shoot in melee as well. Good if not great melee, with both horde-clearing and elite-clearing profiles, so not vulnerable to tarpitting. Rerolls hits and wounds, and can give it to another unit too. It's literally like they just tried to pile every single thing onto a unit so it would be effective in every possible circumstance.

I can see everyone getting sick to the back teeth of her very soon. Just such boring design.

Nightbringer eats her as a light snack. She doesn't even kill it in return.

So her weakness is letting her get into melee with the single model in the game that ignores some of the protections they built into her?

Talk about the exception proving the rule.

Also, you're not even right. NB doesn't bypass her half damage, meaning that the chance of him killing her in one round of melee is actually under 50%, even before you auto-pass one save using a miracle die.

You mean it may take a fight phase *and* a turn of C'tan powers?

My point was there are units that are effective against her despite her defenses. I actually think hot-shot eqv. may be the best solution, but there are plenty of ways to deal with a model like her

Also, GW has outdone themselves with their mandatory typo that apparently has to be in every codex because proofreading is for chumps: RAW, paragon warsuits are immune to D1 weapons, but also cost 240 points per model. I guess it's actually a relief they screwed them up so significantly, because this way no "that guy" gets to argue the immune to 1D thing is real, unless they also want to pay 240 points per model for the privilege.


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Lammia wrote:
You mean it may take a fight phase *and* a turn of C'tan powers?

My point was there are units that are effective against her despite her defenses. I actually think hot-shot eqv. may be the best solution, but there are plenty of ways to deal with a model like her

She's character protected. If a player is stupid enough to let her get shot with a large volume of low-damage ranged weapons, they're surely going to lose that game anyway.

But the point isn't that she's unkillable or can't be dealt with. The point is that she's badly designed because she's just generically good at everything with no notable weak point. There is a good reason you don't see other models like that: they don't result in interesting games. The more you make a unit generically good at everything with no weaknesses, the more the game just comes down to dice rolls and point values rather than strategy.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Also, GW has outdone themselves with their mandatory typo that apparently has to be in every codex because proofreading is for chumps: RAW, paragon warsuits are immune to D1 weapons, but also cost 240 points per model. I guess it's actually a relief they screwed them up so significantly, because this way no "that guy" gets to argue the immune to 1D thing is real, unless they also want to pay 240 points per model for the privilege.

Is that 'rant' based on the blurp in the community article or a photo of the actual codex?
Because it wouldn't be the first time a community article doesn't include the full rule text.

Photo of the codex. Look it up on youtube yourself if you don't believe me.

This is a company worth billions of dollars.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Also, GW has outdone themselves with their mandatory typo that apparently has to be in every codex because proofreading is for chumps: RAW, paragon warsuits are immune to D1 weapons, but also cost 240 points per model. I guess it's actually a relief they screwed them up so significantly, because this way no "that guy" gets to argue the immune to 1D thing is real, unless they also want to pay 240 points per model for the privilege.


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Lammia wrote:
You mean it may take a fight phase *and* a turn of C'tan powers?

My point was there are units that are effective against her despite her defenses. I actually think hot-shot eqv. may be the best solution, but there are plenty of ways to deal with a model like her

She's character protected. If a player is stupid enough to let her get shot with a large volume of low-damage ranged weapons, they're surely going to lose that game anyway.

But the point isn't that she's unkillable or can't be dealt with. The point is that she's badly designed because she's just generically good at everything with no notable weak point. There is a good reason you don't see other models like that: they don't result in interesting games. The more you make a unit generically good at everything with no weaknesses, the more the game just comes down to dice rolls and point values rather than strategy.

The weak point of Vahl is her price. She's 265 points. At that price you could get like 8 SoB characters or 2 full units of repentia (who have actually skated by with barely any issues).

Vahl is capable of doing just about anything and priced assuming she'll be doing everything. She has to perform as a frontline combatant, backline fire support, AND force multiplier to be worth her cost. If she fails at any one of those things you'll have been better off bringing other characters. Can't get any good melee targets? Wasted 140 points not getting a canoness a palantine and a multimelta. Not in a position to really get much out of her buffs? Celestine ends up being a better brawler for 65pts cheaper.

She's very good but she's alway going to have to carry if because of the amount you've invested in bringing her.

She's like Patrick Mahomes, yeah he's an amazing quarterback, but you're paying him half a billion dollars. That's a lot of cap to eat up that can't go to your offensive line or recievers.