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yukishiro1 wrote:


But then you lose 2AP and 1 attack per model compared to the old BR build. That's a pretty massive nerf too - actually two less attacks in most cases, since the priest's buff becomes a lot harder to get now that it has to go off in the command phase and therefore can't be triggered on a unit that starts the turn in a rhino.

There is a 1CP strat that allows a Priest to use a Hymn at the start of any phase and it happens automatically too, so there's no issue with a Priest giving Repentia +1 attack after they get out of a Rhino. It's even better than before because they don't have to stay within 6 inches of the Priest to keep the buff either.

A Repentia Superior can also, in the command phase, give Repentia advance and charge along with a 3D6 discard the lowest charge but that is definitely harder to work around as you would have to run your Repentia on foot though not impossible if you use a good amount of obscuring terrain on your battlefields and use your Repentia as a counter charge unit at the mid table.

Lord Aureus wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:


But then you lose 2AP and 1 attack per model compared to the old BR build. That's a pretty massive nerf too - actually two less attacks in most cases, since the priest's buff becomes a lot harder to get now that it has to go off in the command phase and therefore can't be triggered on a unit that starts the turn in a rhino.

There is a 1CP strat that allows a Priest to use a Hymn at the start of any phase and it happens automatically too, so there's no issue with a Priest giving Repentia +1 attack after they get out of a Rhino. It's even better than before because they don't have to stay within 6 inches of the Priest to keep the buff either.

A Repentia Superior can also, in the command phase, give Repentia advance and charge along with a 3D6 discard the lowest charge but that is definitely harder to work around as you would have to run your Repentia on foot though not impossible if you use a good amount of obscuring terrain on your battlefields and use your Repentia as a counter charge unit at the mid table.

Exactly what I was thinking, but is BR still auto include ? But on WTc tables BR repentias will still be there. Which is too bad, because it is strange to see non post humans with basically bi chain saws cutting down m9nsters 10 times their size… At least we will see a bit less of them I guess

dammit wrote:

But then you lose 2AP

what's the second ap that was lost?

One of the reviews I read said Repentia lost a point of AP base, but looking at the youtube, it's blurry, but it seems to still be -3? So I guess that bit was inaccurate, so taking them as argent shroud to allow for advance and charge "only" results in losing 1AP, 1 attack, and the +1 to wound strat they used to have, as well as having to spend that CP they would have spent on +1 wound to avoid losing the second attack they'd otherwise lose from the priest.

So no matter how you cut it, Repentia took it pretty hard. BR lost their + to wound strat and advance and charge, argent shroud loses a huge amount of damage output in order to regain advance and charge.

 warmaster21 wrote:
the more I look at the other orders im learning towards ebon chalice instead of the usual valorous/rose, either that or some weird minor order combination for fun like witch hunters + vengence

not sure what sacred rites I would use though, probably guidence and aegis or guidence and light of the emperor

Ebon Chalice sucks a lot when you've lost 2/3 of ways to get Miracle Dices back (WTs, Triumph was halved and Purity/Valour which also gave additional D3 Miracle Dice for 1 CP)

again, argent shroud is only remain stationary till the end of shooting. And with repentia being core, you could choose to give them full wound rerolls.

I think the answer with repentia is simply being more brave. Deploy them behind obscuring and use the imagifier/superior. Rhinos are for dominions and their friends now.

yukishiro1 wrote:


One of the reviews I read said Repentia lost a point of AP base, but looking at the youtube, it's blurry, but it seems to still be -3? So I guess that bit was inaccurate, so taking them as argent shroud to allow for advance and charge "only" results in losing 1AP, 1 attack, and the +1 to wound strat they used to have, as well as having to spend that CP they would have spent on +1 wound to avoid losing the second attack they'd otherwise lose from the priest.

So no matter how you cut it, Repentia took it pretty hard. BR lost their + to wound strat and advance and charge, argent shroud loses a huge amount of damage output in order to regain advance and charge.

I'd appreciate it if you could please go and learn what the actual rules in the codex are before you start discussing which units are bad or not? Argent Shroud doesn't give them advance and charge so you will keep using Bloody Rose for them, where the Repentia Superior can give them advance and charge and Priests can still give then +1 Attack, and they can get full rerolls to wound for free as well.

Repentia went down in points and the main thing they lost was the advance and charge strat with the only other thing that changed was the Bloody Rose strat going to a minor nerf or side grade/possible improvement depending if you are fighting T5 or less models or T6+ models. Otherwise they are exactly the same level of killyness once they get into combat if not more due to extra buffs we can now put on them.

Edit: The Repentia Superior also has an aura that gives Repentia +1 to wound now instead of reroll 1s to wound so we can still get that along with exploding 6's, 6's to hit auto wound, and full rerolls to wound on a unit and only have to spend 1 CP.

Someone else said Argent Shroud now allows advance and charge due to the wording, and I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that that is correct; if that's wrong, that simply reinforces the point that they got nerfed significantly, as it really does mean there is no way to advance and charge out of a transport any more.

The superior as a route to advance and charge is very problematic competitively due to the command phase limitation. Repentia that have to survive on the board for one of your opponent's turns before you can use them are repentia that are unlikely to survive for a turn before you use them. Sure, in some matchups they'll be fine - but anybody with strong mobility and/or out of LOS shooting will just pick them up. It's not something you can rely on, in a lot of matchups you'll be stuck reserving them and hoping your opponent can't screen you out so you have to waste them on something junky.

The problem with repentia was not their damage; being able to buff that even more is not important, they do enough damage already. The problem is the delivery. Starting T3, 6++ (maybe 5++ at best)/5+++ models on the board and expecting them to live to get a charge off - especially with 3" less threat range than they used to, even assuming they survive and you can put the advance and charge buff on them - is a massive downgrade from what you used to be able to do. And that's even before you reckon with the reduced miracle dice generation that makes it a lot more costly than it used to be to burn miracle dice on a guaranteed charge.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

dammit wrote:

I think the answer with repentia is simply being more brave. Deploy them behind obscuring and use the imagifier/superior. Rhinos are for dominions and their friends now.

I think this is right, but it is a far less reliable plan than the old one. The days when you could reliably keep repentia alive until you needed them then deliver them 24"+ across the table are gone. They've gone from something that works vs pretty much everybody to something that can be an ace up your sleeve vs some armies due to the fight on death strat making them even better in certain circumstances, but is markedly less effective against any army that can shoot them off the table before you get to use them.

I'm already thinking about a go-wide MSU build for Argent Shroud. Something like 6x 5-girl BSS with Multi-meltas, and maybe combi-meltas on the Superiors. Really take advantage of the move/advance and count as stationary, plus take advantage of the hit or wound reroll. Throw in some Dominions with meltas and maybe a unit of Paragons with meltas, with Mortifiers/Pengines for mid-field brawling. Not sure how the points would work out for this though.

I think my new army list goes:
Shroud Bat:
HQ: Vahl / Missionary
Troops: 6x 5 BBS with 1x Multimelta each
Heavy: 2x 4 Penitent Engines


Bloody Rose Patrol:
HQ: Cannoness with +1 Invuln
Troops: 20x BBS with 4x Flamers
Elites: 2x 5 Sacrosancts
FA: 2x Dominions w/ 4x storm bolters
Transports: 2x rhinos

Rough estimate there is some change left over there for an extra small character or a few crusaders; probably could squeeze an imigifier.


Plan goes: 20 woman blob is going to be a solid anvil. It'll be constant transhuman, constant 4++ and have 4 flamers +16 bolters to make things not want to charge it. Very little will want to shoot it and it'll be a bully in melee; 60 str 4 ap -1 exploding 6s attacks rerolling everything as it will be the constant vahl target. Vahl will hang out with it.

6 shroud squads put out less firepower than the previous expected 8-12 multi melta rets but are way more spread out and harder to down; each MM has 4 ablative wounds and also is advancing, scoring, etc. It can't burn anything down quite as fast, but is a bit more accurate and way harder to wipe.

I think 4 man squads of penitents are probably among the best hammers we have. They are kinda weirdly durable for their points (it takes an average of 4 dark lance shots to kill one), getting baked in advance and charge along with +1 strength on flamers (meaning wounding new orcs on 3s, wyches on 2s, gravis on 3s, raiders on 4s, admech on 2s), able to be targeted by hymns and access to the max shot flame strat are all...a collection of small nice things that really ratchet them up. Now plenty of the time you won't want to advance and charge, but it's a nice option.

Finally the flex piece is the rhinos. They can move up early to grab objectives or pull back with the pre-game move, dominions are good for blessed bolts and support fire while sacros are a real legit trade-up unit that demands a real response unlike the stiff breeze of repentia. I think it would also be just as valid to drop the rhinos/dominions for a 2 squads of zerphym and 2 squads of flamer seraphim but I like the rhinos pulling anti-tank fire away from the penitent engines.

...I actually kinda am digging this list and I'm pretty sour on the changes.

Thoughts?

I really like that list.

Though, I do think you should find a place for 10 zephyrim.

With the 2/3cp combination of fiery orator (depending on where you start your zephyrim)/tear them down/holy rage(zealot)/passion, you get 17 auto wounds and 34 additional wound rolls..

Works out at 11/21 for repentia, though the benefit of doing it for zephyrim is ignoring the s4.

I like the idea. A couple thoughts:

Only having Vahl + the min size MM sisters squads for ranged anti-tank seems risky, both in terms of not having much anti-tank period, but more importantly, in terms of not having enough anti-tank you can deliver to where it needs to go. Anti-tank is typically only really useful when massed - a stray MM here and there doesn't have much chance to kill anything. But it's going to be hard to get more than 2-3 of those MMs in range of any one thing at a time. So I am not really sure that it is going to actually effectively kill stuff, rather than just plinking off some wounds here and there. The thing that made retributors so good wasn't just the amount of MMs you could cram onto them, it was that they could deliver all those shots effectively to where they needed to go, thanks to being such a small footprint and having the strat to boost range when needed.

Second, while that battle sister blob will be tough for some armies to remove, others are going to do it quite trivially easy, especially if they get first turn and have an army that can hit it, because you can't get any of your buffs up until your own turn. And something like an ad mech vanguard blob will obliterate it even through all your buffs without breaking much of a sweat. Doesn't mean it's a bad choice, just that against some lists it's not going to do much of anything other than suck up your CP.

Finally, that list seems like it gets really done over by screens. Not having any deep strike or fly means your opponent can push all their screens forward. You obviously have the ability to kill those screens very easily with the penitent engines, but that leaves them sitting ducks on your opponent's turn. I am not sure about 2 blocks of 4, with each unit worth so many points it really limits them as trading pieces, and means you HAVE to get them into something good or they're wasted, which is difficult when they're the ones who are clearing screens in the first place. I'd consider breaking one of them into 2 units of 2 instead. That gives you two pieces you can trade and clear with so your 4-man squad can actually get in and do work afterwards.

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
the more I look at the other orders im learning towards ebon chalice instead of the usual valorous/rose, either that or some weird minor order combination for fun like witch hunters + vengence

not sure what sacred rites I would use though, probably guidence and aegis or guidence and light of the emperor

Ebon Chalice sucks a lot when you've lost 2/3 of ways to get Miracle Dices back (WTs, Triumph was halved and Purity/Valour which also gave additional D3 Miracle Dice for 1 CP)

I wasnt looking at it for the miracle dice shinanigans, more for the +4" flame range and the 2 sacred rights

yukishiro1 wrote:
And something like an ad mech vanguard blob will obliterate it even through all your buffs without breaking much of a sweat. Doesn't mean it's a bad choice, just that against some lists it's not going to do much of anything other than suck up your CP.

Lets be fair though, enriched rounds is bs that kills anyone at least as much as it kills sisters. But yeah, not a guarantee.

I'm sorta of the opinion that the 20-girl BSS blob is going to be a trap. Much like 8th edition's big Possessed and Plague Marine blobs were for Chaos; they really didn't pan out all that well IIRC. Especially if they had to go second and eat a round of fire from their opponent before getting their buffs up. You need a fair number of moving parts to make it happen, and it's a lot of points in support units and the unit itself. "Death Star" units like that don't work as well in 8th-9th as they did in 7th, where they were a holy terror that is best left buried.

I think those are fair counter points. To address:

Re: Anti-tank. I think 6 multi-meltas (each with its own reroll to hit or wound, which I think is deceptively potent) and vahl backed by some miracle dice is not crazy anti-tank but I think it is sufficient. True tanks don't show up that much. This is still enough firepower to down a knight or pop 2 raiders. I think that's about what you need; it has secondary sources as well; flamer strat equipped penitents aren't actually bad at it, shave 8 wounds off a knight, same with mortal wounds from blessed bolts. Even mace-equipped sacrosancts in BR aren't awful at it. The sister squads are relatively small and, more importantly, extra mobile because they all not only move and shoot but advance and shoot. And they probably don't get wiped easily either. I do agree it isn't as strong as pre-nerf rets, but it does some things they couldn't (play the game, be more mobile) and, honestly, nothing is going to be as good straight anti tank as they were. I actually think sneaking a hunter killer missile on each rhino if the points work out would be worth it; again, due to shroud re-rolls.

Re: 20 man blob. So I think it is a valid point to feel it might be a trap. It's less that I think it will always work so much as it is a useful tool that I'm not actually investing that much in. It is flatly one of the better targets for vahl, though she can easily move to support anything else in the army as well. I have to spend points on HQs; there isn't really anything better for them to do and I'm not spending that much. Imigifier is so-so as an include; beyond her I'm only devoting a missionary and a cannoness (both of whom I have to have and who can move to support other elements of the army, missionary in particular). I think the cannoness/missionary are both mandatory for force org and pretty cheap and pretty able to flex elsewhere. So beyond those, I actually think it isn't a very big investment; 220 points for a unit that many armies will hate dealing with, everyone will have to answer with serious resources. I think the biggest strike against it is admech...and well, admech is probably the most broken codex at present. I think it is considerably more egregious than DE, particularly post-DE nerfs. Nothing can deal with it very well.

The ad mech comment made me go check what the imagifier stoic ability was again, (something about s3 right? sounds like it could counter the massed s3 bs) and... it's useless against enriched rounds. VH and a hospitaller does limit it to only 8-9 dead sisters, d3 of which can return.

Warrior blobs with mwbd aren't meta defining and They're scarier than 20 strong BSS with all the buffs, imo.

A lot harder to remove, certainly (except in valorous heart, I guess) - and also a lot scarier offensively.

Big, resilient units are typically only worth it in 40k when they are either extremely difficult to kill, or extremely points efficient. I don't think the BSS blob probably qualifies as either.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Someone else said Argent Shroud now allows advance and charge due to the wording, and I was giving them the benefit of the doubt that that is correct; if that's wrong, that simply reinforces the point that they got nerfed significantly, as it really does mean there is no way to advance and charge out of a transport any more.

Argent Shroud count as stationary until the end of the shooting phase, so by the time they get to charge they are no longer effected and the new rule that allows advance + charge does not apply.

Is it correct that the only options for advance + charge are the Repentia Superior on Repentia in the command phase and Penitent Engines with their new ability? I did not go through every preview in detail, so I might (even hope to) have missed something.

Blazing ire warlord trait still has it.

Lord Aureus wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:


But then you lose 2AP and 1 attack per model compared to the old BR build. That's a pretty massive nerf too - actually two less attacks in most cases, since the priest's buff becomes a lot harder to get now that it has to go off in the command phase and therefore can't be triggered on a unit that starts the turn in a rhino.

There is a 1CP strat that allows a Priest to use a Hymn at the start of any phase and it happens automatically too, so there's no issue with a Priest giving Repentia +1 attack after they get out of a Rhino. It's even better than before because they don't have to stay within 6 inches of the Priest to keep the buff either.

A Repentia Superior can also, in the command phase, give Repentia advance and charge along with a 3D6 discard the lowest charge but that is definitely harder to work around as you would have to run your Repentia on foot though not impossible if you use a good amount of obscuring terrain on your battlefields and use your Repentia as a counter charge unit at the mid table.

I goddamn hate it when people are like 'oh it's fine, you can just throw CP at it to make it not suck!' like CP isn't a finite resource we already need too much off.

And it is impossible. Even with obscuring terrain it is completely impossible. If they can't kill the repentia, they'll just move away from them. If they can't move away from them and can't shoot them and can't charge first, they weren't close enough to charge to begin with.

No one, in the entire life of this book, will ever get the repentia superior targeted ability off. Not once.

The big difference between 20 skitarii and 20 sister blocks for me is that if you go second you can still get your defensive buffs up on the skitarii.

They're also both significantly scarier offensively and cheaper too...

 warmaster21 wrote:

KurtAngle2 wrote:

 warmaster21 wrote:
the more I look at the other orders im learning towards ebon chalice instead of the usual valorous/rose, either that or some weird minor order combination for fun like witch hunters + vengence

not sure what sacred rites I would use though, probably guidence and aegis or guidence and light of the emperor

Ebon Chalice sucks a lot when you've lost 2/3 of ways to get Miracle Dices back (WTs, Triumph was halved and Purity/Valour which also gave additional D3 Miracle Dice for 1 CP)

I wasnt looking at it for the miracle dice shinanigans, more for the +4" flame range and the 2 sacred rights

The sacred rights are dogshit. The passion is the only one that isn't utterly worthless and Ebon Chalice can't use that one.

I've just realised that you've never played 40k with objectives, and it's 50/50 if youve ever actually played at all.

I've always found Repentia overkilled whatever they hit - I'm not concerned at all about being able to use them. I think they're still great. They aren't as good as they were, but they are appropriately costed for a unit that good. The old repentia were so good that there was no way they could be costed in such a way that made sense. With the changes, they're actually useable in any order without being oppressive in Bloody Rose.

On first read, I was pretty bummed out by the codex, but honestly other than the tanks being terrible I think it's still a good book.My only concern is long range anti tank - in that we don't really have any.

On a side note, Celestine and Stern are both incredible now. They need an inordinate amount of focus to take them out, and cannot be ignored without ruining your opponents day. I can see both getting use.

Does the hospitaller still revive sister models? I don't see that on the leaked data sheet. Just regaining a models wounds nothing about bringing anything back. Which is disappointing

 Punisher wrote:
Does the hospitaller still revive sister models? I don't see that on the leaked data sheet. Just regaining a models wounds nothing about bringing anything back. Which is disappointing

There's a stratagem for that, like the one Marine Apothecaries has.
Iirc it resurrects d3 models

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Punisher wrote:
Does the hospitaller still revive sister models? I don't see that on the leaked data sheet. Just regaining a models wounds nothing about bringing anything back. Which is disappointing

There's a stratagem for that, like the one Marine Apothecaries has.
Iirc it resurrects d3 models

This is correct. She gives out a FnP buff innately but has to pay CP to bring models back, but she brings back more models than the Apothecary can. Apparently faith is better than magic space organs for shrugging off being shot in the face?

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Punisher wrote:
Does the hospitaller still revive sister models? I don't see that on the leaked data sheet. Just regaining a models wounds nothing about bringing anything back. Which is disappointing

There's a stratagem for that, like the one Marine Apothecaries has.
Iirc it resurrects d3 models

This is correct. She gives out a FnP buff innately but has to pay CP to bring models back, but she brings back more models than the Apothecary can. Apparently faith is better than magic space organs for shrugging off being shot in the face?

Faith literally IS better than medicine canonically in 40k. Even with all their implants a Space Marine can't surcive a direct hit with a Meltagun to the face.

A Repentia can though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

shabadoit wrote:
I've always found Repentia overkilled whatever they hit - I'm not concerned at all about being able to use them. I think they're still great. They aren't as good as they were, but they are appropriately costed for a unit that good. The old repentia were so good that there was no way they could be costed in such a way that made sense. With the changes, they're actually useable in any order without being oppressive in Bloody Rose.

On first read, I was pretty bummed out by the codex, but honestly other than the tanks being terrible I think it's still a good book.My only concern is long range anti tank - in that we don't really have any.

On a side note, Celestine and Stern are both incredible now. They need an inordinate amount of focus to take them out, and cannot be ignored without ruining your opponents day. I can see both getting use.

I still can't see them ever being used outside of bloody rose. I can't see ANY <Order> melee units being useful outside of bloody rose.

Especially repentia considering they don't benefit from any of the other orders. AS? What are they gonna shoot? VH, I guess if your opponent targets them for smites? Sacred rose? Lol. Ooml? I guess getting 2 miracle dice when they get popped would be nice but vs like 30% of their damage? Ebon Chalice? Ooh plus 1 to charge! Such big, much wow!