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OML looks decent if you run big squads as anything that makes it into combat will be swinging better, but for.most orders melee feels like a defensive tool instead of an offensive one.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
OML looks decent if you run big squads as anything that makes it into combat will be swinging better, but for.most orders melee feels like a defensive tool instead of an offensive one.

Arcos, mortifiers, and penitent engines are really good options for other orders. Every list need some kind of melee but <Order> units are too balanced around bloody rose. Why take diet repentia when arcos are perfectly fine?

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
OML looks decent if you run big squads as anything that makes it into combat will be swinging better, but for.most orders melee feels like a defensive tool instead of an offensive one.

Arcos, mortifiers, and penitent engines are really good options for other orders. Every list need some kind of melee but <Order> units are too balanced around bloody rose. Why take diet repentia when arcos are perfectly fine?

Because sometimes you like to ask "will it blend?" Honestly I guess it depends what you want and what you want to spend. Plus unlike the things you listed the Repentia can still use Miracle dice and have a way to fight (or was it deal mortal woubds? I can't recall at the moment and I'm away from home) even if they're killed which helps offset the increasing mumber of "fights last" mechanisms in the game.

Had a thought about OML: it feels like a good pick for mechanized Sisters lists. 10 BSS + a Rhino seems like a decent way to gain faith dice by forcing them to pop your metal boxes while taking enough bodies to make the BSS inside likely to benefit from the +1 to hit bonus.

Though if I missed something I'm sure someone will tell me I'm am idiot any minute now.

+1 to hit on a BSS squad doesn't actually do all that much, because they have no real offense to begin with. Zero AP attacks have become largely obsolete these days due to save value proliferation.

I think the +1 to hit is awesome buff, especially with reroll ones (I play Dark Angels as my main army). And afterall, it's a wargame, casualties are bound to happen, so that 16% bonus to accuracy is quite good. The bolter may not seem much, but it can help thinning down hordes. Something to consider, the miracle dice our martyred lady gains are useful to boost either offensive or defensive.

yukishiro1 wrote:
+1 to hit on a BSS squad doesn't actually do all that much, because they have no real offense to begin with. Zero AP attacks have become largely obsolete these days due to save value proliferation.

2+ is good for the special and heavy weapons though, and a 3+ to hit on melee buffs their defensive power if they get charged.

I mean a tiny bit, sure. But a single 3+ to hit S3 AP0 attack per model is almost as worthless as a 4+ to hit S3 AP0 attack.

The math on the +1 to hit from being below max strength really doesn't work out well for BSS squads, it's just so little damage they put out to begin with. When your shooting is lucky to kill a model in most cases, boosting it by 16% doesn't really matter. And if you're trying to boost a single MM in a squad, argent shroud is far, far better - you effectively get the +1 to hit anyway by ignoring movement penalties, plus a hit or wound reroll to boot.

OML remains reasonable strong in the miracle dice generation part however, if thats something you want to value.

Plus people get weird about buffs like that, and if you want to overcommit damage to kill one of my 8 MSU units be my guess.

yukishiro1 wrote:
I mean a tiny bit, sure. But a single 3+ to hit S3 AP0 attack per model is almost as worthless as a 4+ to hit S3 AP0 attack.

The math on the +1 to hit from being below max strength really doesn't work out well for BSS squads, it's just so little damage they put out to begin with. When your shooting is lucky to kill a model in most cases, boosting it by 16% doesn't really matter. And if you're trying to boost a single MM in a squad, argent shroud is far, far better - you effectively get the +1 to hit anyway by ignoring movement penalties, plus a hit or wound reroll to boot.

I like the Miracle Die mechanic since it's a squishy army of T3 so it's more a look at how to get good mileage out of the other half too.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
+1 to hit on a BSS squad doesn't actually do all that much, because they have no real offense to begin with. Zero AP attacks have become largely obsolete these days due to save value proliferation.

2+ is good for the special and heavy weapons though, and a 3+ to hit on melee buffs their defensive power if they get charged.

You're still investing 200+ points hoping that when 91pts of it dies the other 108pts will be 16% better. A net loss of at least 73pts.

25% better.

Normally, you hit 4/6.
+1 makes it 5/6, or a 25% improvement.

 JNAProductions wrote:
25% better.

Normally, you hit 4/6.
+1 makes it 5/6, or a 25% improvement.

Cool. So you only lose 65pts net.

ERJAK wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
+1 to hit on a BSS squad doesn't actually do all that much, because they have no real offense to begin with. Zero AP attacks have become largely obsolete these days due to save value proliferation.

2+ is good for the special and heavy weapons though, and a 3+ to hit on melee buffs their defensive power if they get charged.

You're still investing 200+ points hoping that when 91pts of it dies the other 108pts will be 16% better. A net loss of at least 73pts.

Rhino serves three purposes: mobility, protection and a free MD when it gets popped. The inevitable loss of at least a single model means the other 9 will see a buff to shooting.

Look, I get you hate everything ever about this book, but give some credit: if you want to go Mech Sisters it's not a bad option even if it's not the top tables at the LVO good. Not everything people discuss needs to be hyper optimized. Sometimes it's just good to work out the best way to use less optimized options.

So something I don't know of people are tracking is that Seraphim and Zephrym both gained an attack according to Skari's coverage of the book.

Well, that would be a rare positive, though I'm not sure just how much use a seraphim squad can make of that attack.

 Mmmpi wrote:
Well, that would be a rare positive, though I'm not sure just how much use a seraphim squad can make of that attack.

Drop in and unload during the movement phase, then the shooting phase and charge anything that survives seems like a good way to clean up objectives or back line support units.

I'm used to fighting marines, so that's not always reliable for a bunch of str 3 attacks.

Love the book from the YouTube videos. I've not stopped looking at the new units with glee, and finally getting a look at old units with new coats of paint. GW success here by finally finding a way to make the army more than just BR Repentia and Retributor spam. What a failed codex the 8th one was. No internal balance, and meta skewing bs with Rets.

Finally a good codex for Sisters. I can't wait to expand my collection.

 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm used to fighting marines, so that's not always reliable for a bunch of str 3 attacks.

That's fair. I've always been a bit disappointed that pistols can't use their profile in melee so I can get the desire to stay away from the S3 attacks. That said, anything that gets shot 20 or 40+ times (depending if you go 5 models or 10 and if you use hand flamers or not) and lives either won't have much to kill, or was a mistake to shoot at in the first place.

For the new book can you use the deadly descent strat and the blessed bolts strat in the same phase?

Immolators stratagem ONLY WORKS ON THE FLAMER! WHY?!?!?!?!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 christianA wrote:
For the new book can you use the deadly descent strat and the blessed bolts strat in the same phase?

No, deadly descent is movement blessed bolts is shooting. Also blessed bolts only works on stormbolters which seraphim don't have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vilgeir wrote:
Love the book from the YouTube videos. I've not stopped looking at the new units with glee, and finally getting a look at old units with new coats of paint. GW success here by finally finding a way to make the army more than just BR Repentia and Retributor spam. What a failed codex the 8th one was. No internal balance, and meta skewing bs with Rets.

Finally a good codex for Sisters. I can't wait to expand my collection.

Obvious Troll is obvious. Go somewhere else.

 christianA wrote:
For the new book can you use the deadly descent strat and the blessed bolts strat in the same phase?

No, but there's no overlap between the two strats anyway. Blessed bolts is only in the shooting phase, and it only works on the dominion storm bolters. Deadly descent is only in the movement phase, and it only works on Seraphim.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
I'm used to fighting marines, so that's not always reliable for a bunch of str 3 attacks.

That's fair. I've always been a bit disappointed that pistols can't use their profile in melee so I can get the desire to stay away from the S3 attacks. That said, anything that gets shot 20 or 40+ times (depending if you go 5 models or 10 and if you use hand flamers or not) and lives either won't have much to kill, or was a mistake to shoot at in the first place.

I mean...6 intercessors survive 10 double shooting seraphim with handflamers+melee.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dammit wrote:
Reported

Oh no, not a report. How terrifying.

Awesome thanks for the reply!

ERJAK wrote:
Obvious Troll is obvious. Go somewhere else.

I'd argue it's at least a more interesting codex. Each Order feels like it leans into a different kind of build and they addressed some of the more abusive elements of the book. I get that you think that if it can't beat pre-nerf Drukhari with it's eyes closed and both hands behind it's back it's bad, but as someone who doesn't play competitively I feel the book is more interesting and most of the nerfs were side grades instead of straight downgrades.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Obvious Troll is obvious. Go somewhere else.

I'd argue it's at least a more interesting codex. Each Order feels like it leans into a different kind of build and they addressed some of the more abusive elements of the book. I get that you think that if it can't beat pre-nerf Drukhari with it's eyes closed and both hands behind it's back it's bad, but as someone who doesn't play competitively I feel the book is more interesting and most of the nerfs were side grades instead of straight downgrades.

This right here. All we have to do is find new ways to play, and Sisters will still be competitively relevant. I'm glad we're not broken on the level of Drukhari or AdMech; power creep is bad for the game in the long run.

On a side note, I didn't think I'd ever have a use for the Penitent Engine from the launch box. Now, I'm actually thinking of building my unbuild Penitent Engines kit as actual Pengines to make a unit of 3 of them. Who'da thunk?

 ZergSmasher wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
Obvious Troll is obvious. Go somewhere else.

I'd argue it's at least a more interesting codex. Each Order feels like it leans into a different kind of build and they addressed some of the more abusive elements of the book. I get that you think that if it can't beat pre-nerf Drukhari with it's eyes closed and both hands behind it's back it's bad, but as someone who doesn't play competitively I feel the book is more interesting and most of the nerfs were side grades instead of straight downgrades.

This right here. All we have to do is find new ways to play, and Sisters will still be competitively relevant. I'm glad we're not broken on the level of Drukhari or AdMech; power creep is bad for the game in the long run.

On a side note, I didn't think I'd ever have a use for the Penitent Engine from the launch box. Now, I'm actually thinking of building my unbuild Penitent Engines kit as actual Pengines to make a unit of 3 of them. Who'da thunk?

Penitent Engines definitely seem to have a better place now, plus with those S6 flamers they'll be prime to throw at those new tougher Orks.

It's a better balanced book, I'm really not sure it's a more interesting book. What made sisters interesting in the past was their rough edges and weird rules, and a lot of those got toned down.

And what got added is mostly pretty generic stuff - the new units are all pretty bland, prayers C&Ped from the standard formulas, upgrades that function exactly the same as the ad mech ones, etc etc. It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's a better balanced book, I'm really not sure it's a more interesting book. What made sisters interesting in the past was their rough edges and weird rules, and a lot of those got toned down.

And what got added is mostly pretty generic stuff - the new units are all pretty bland, prayers C&Ped from the standard formulas, upgrades that function exactly the same as the ad mech ones, etc etc. It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.

To me it was the aggressive close range playstyle that forces you to balance how close you get to the enemy to inflict damage without being blown off the table, and the incredibly gothic models that make the army interesting. We kept that, and Miracle Dice are still great, if less abundant than before. The 1/6 to put a psyker in time out is hilarious too.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's a better balanced book, I'm really not sure it's a more interesting book. What made sisters interesting in the past was their rough edges and weird rules, and a lot of those got toned down.

And what got added is mostly pretty generic stuff - the new units are all pretty bland, prayers C&Ped from the standard formulas, upgrades that function exactly the same as the ad mech ones, etc etc. It doesn't really feel like a book written by someone who loved the faction, it feels like a book written by someone brought in to standardize things.

I'd agree but this book added some clear dud options to the book, like tanks. With that it's hard to say it's better balanced.

Saint C and the twins are also a design nightmare that they've brought back...