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 Octopoid wrote:
To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.

Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.

Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.

Never said it did. Re-read what I said.

 Octopoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.

Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.

Never said it did. Re-read what I said.

You didn't say it, but I got that implication from your post. If that wasn't intended, my bad.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.

Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.

Never said it did. Re-read what I said.

You didn't say it, but I got that implication from your post. If that wasn't intended, my bad.

Assuming implications can be dangerous. Apology accepted.

 Octopoid wrote:
To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.

White wolf has been sold 3 times now and the current product line is mostly in pdf or print on demand because it sells too poorly to put product on the shelves. WW pays/has paid for their mistakes.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.

Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.

Never said it did. Re-read what I said.

You didn't say it, but I got that implication from your post. If that wasn't intended, my bad.

I don't think you need to apologise. What other reason is there for bringing in other companies with shoddy products into a thread discussing the lack of quality in GW products than to attempt to deflect from GWs failures with a "other people release crap, so GW is not on their own!" argument?

The discussion is whether GW, the biggest tabletop miniatures game company in the world, should be releasing shoddy products. That other companies release shoddy products is irrelevant.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Octopoid wrote:
To everyone complaining about GW's lack of editing and saying that other companies do better, check out White Wolf sometime, or Catalyst (Shadowrun). GW does not have a monopoly on feth-ups.

Other companies making mistakes doesn't excuse GW.

Never said it did. Re-read what I said.

You didn't say it, but I got that implication from your post. If that wasn't intended, my bad.

I don't think you need to apologise. What other reason is there for bringing in other companies with shoddy products into a thread discussing the lack of quality in GW products than to attempt to deflect from GWs failures with a "other people release crap, so GW is not on their own!" argument?

The discussion is whether GW, the biggest tabletop miniatures game company in the world, should be releasing shoddy products. That other companies release shoddy products is irrelevant.

If other people's shoddy product is irrelevant, other people should stop bringing them up. I said in my first post, "To everyone... saying that other companies do better..." If you're not one of those people, my post wasn't directed at you. Feel free to not reply to it.

I've actually became very skeptical over some of the points values after some thought today. I'll give two examples: astropaths and ogryn. Both unusual points changes and both reversions back to their Codex values. Ogryn hardly needed a points increase, and Astropaths are pretty much must-takes now.

I have a sneaking suspicion that these are errors, where the original Codex value was copied and the previous CA values were forgotten. I would like to know if anyone else can spot similar changes, as these are just the ones that jumped out at me being a Guard player. If this is a widespread phenomena it could mean that the whole document is massively corrupted.

 Trickstick wrote:
I've actually became very skeptical over some of the points values after some thought today. I'll give two examples: astropaths and ogryn. Both unusual points changes and both reversions back to their Codex values. Ogryn hardly needed a points increase, and Astropaths are pretty much must-takes now.

I have a sneaking suspicion that these are errors, where the original Codex value was copied and the previous CA values were forgotten. I would like to know if anyone else can spot similar changes, as these are just the ones that jumped out at me being a Guard player. If this is a widespread phenomena it could mean that the whole document is massively corrupted.

Agreed, especially with the Ogryn one. I'm not sure I've ever seen Ogryns in any serious list in 8th edition. Bullgryns, yes; never Ogryns. This brings up another couple of problems. Firstly, GW is so incompetent we can't even trust content that superficially doesn't have any problems with it. Secondly, all these changes are done in a super-secret fashion without any explanation at all as to what the design goals were, why some things were reduced while others went up, why most changes are reductions for underperforming units rather than increases for overperforming ones, etc. GW are the only gaming company I know of that does these sort of fixes but leaves the players in the dark about why they've made the changes they have.

Yes. Space wolves fast attack reverted back to codex prices. Sky claws went up a point and landspeeders 25 I think.

mightymconeshot wrote:
Yes. Space wolves fast attack reverted back to codex prices. Sky claws went up a point and landspeeders 25 I think.

Are those unusual changes for the meta? I'm not exactly clued in to all the armies these days, but were those units under/over costed to any real degree?

 Trickstick wrote:

mightymconeshot wrote:
Yes. Space wolves fast attack reverted back to codex prices. Sky claws went up a point and landspeeders 25 I think.

Are those unusual changes for the meta? I'm not exactly clued in to all the armies these days, but were those units under/over costed to any real degree?

Both grotesquely overcosted, yes. Would you really spend 70pts on a Land Speeder (T5/6W) when you could get a Razorback (T7/10W and 6-model transport) for the same price?

The space wolf speeder was the only one to go up in points. Unless SW are getting some super speeder buff its a copy/paste error (also TWC need a points cut beyond storm shields and they didn't get one despite the characters riding thunderwolves all going down...).

There are other issues for sure. Issues which shouldn't have made it past any half-arsed QA. There's no good reason that GW couldn't proof-read the damned book before they sent it to the printer outside of blind allegiance from fanbois (I'm one) and gross internal mismanagement. At this point GW doesn't have to GAF because people it hasn't impacted their bottom line and it won't as long as casuals don't care and competitive players feel forced to buy the new products to not get left behind the power curve (and adhere to tournament rules about bringing your army materials).

Maybe someone went a little bit to gong ho with copy pasting stuff, and forgot that maybe in the past some of the point costs get amended? Or GW just doesnt care or has an intern do it.

The best thing I think 8th has going for it is the quality of the sculpts is beyond what we've seen before, and in a BIG way. I would presume a large portion of the buyer base these days are people who enjoy the models or the modeling, more than the game.

Think about Youtube painters. They likely have to buy multiple boxes of the hot new thing just to do how-to videos. Think about the people who make the kit bashes. Or do unboxing videos but don't ACTUALLY play the game. Twitch has turned 40k into a hobbyists thing, and less of a game thing. More people watch the painting videos than the tournament game videos or the match videos. Check the twitch stats.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
The best thing I think 8th has going for it is the quality of the sculpts is beyond what we've seen before, and in a BIG way. I would presume a large portion of the buyer base these days are people who enjoy the models or the modeling, more than the game.

Think about Youtube painters. They likely have to buy multiple boxes of the hot new thing just to do how-to videos. Think about the people who make the kit bashes. Or do unboxing videos but don't ACTUALLY play the game. Twitch has turned 40k into a hobbyists thing, and less of a game thing. More people watch the painting videos than the tournament game videos or the match videos. Check the twitch stats.

umm pretty sure it's always been a hobbyist thing.

Maybe not in all parts of the globe. I have never seen a person that only paints the models, and I played almost all 8th ed.

Of the groups that I play in, there are about 20-30 people. 4 are pure painters, and about 13-15 are playing but aren't competitive and just enjoy the break from D&D and painting. about 2 guys are strictly competitive and pay to have their models painted.

BrianDavion wrote:
Yes it's too much to expect the book to be absolutely FLAWLESS.

Nothing can be expected to be flawless. I expect mistakes and typos and other little small errors here and there.

However, I expect mistakes to be a learning experience. I shouldn't find the same exact types of mistakes over and over again, and they shouldn't be increasing in number. That's doing the opposite of learning from your mistakes.

I'm starting to think that this is what happens when there's too much of a focus on cranking out new stuff. Or maybe it's what happens when you have too many fluff writers and not enough crunch writers. Or when your only third-party playtesters are "gaming pages" that will never do anything more than fellate GW for giving them plastic toys and toy books.

0%

That is the rate of error free books GW has produced in 8th edition. I can fully understand some, or even maybe most books having an error or two.

But every. single. one?

 BaconCatBug wrote:
0%

That is the rate of error free books GW has produced in 8th edition. I can fully understand some, or even maybe most books having an error or two.

But every. single. one?

Honest question- are you counting simple typos and stuff like that? Because I can overlook "Daethwatch Vetrean" or something. Or is this only actual errors that outright impact the mechanics/rules, like numbers and the like?

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:

 BaconCatBug wrote:
0%

That is the rate of error free books GW has produced in 8th edition. I can fully understand some, or even maybe most books having an error or two.

But every. single. one?

Honest question- are you counting simple typos and stuff like that? Because I can overlook "Daethwatch Vetrean" or something. Or is this only actual errors that outright impact the mechanics/rules, like numbers and the like?

Every single codex has needed rules errata. Granted, some of that is due to a lack of USR, but it still counts because GW decided (rightly) they can't be trusted to implement USRs properly.

 Adeptus Doritos wrote:
That's doing the opposite of learning from your mistakes.

No, they've learned from their mistakes. But what they've learned is that such mistakes don't negatively affect their sales figures, and that doing any sort of serious quality control is therefore not a justifiable expense. Their customers have proven they will keep drinking from the endless firehose of codexes, supplements and errata-you-pay-for no matter how many errors they contain.

And now I've depressed myself...

But guys, Jervis told us that GW uses a magical points calculating super computer spreadsheet to come up with points values which is almost always correct.*

So we should totally trust GW and not critique them.
Or something.



*I wish I was making that up... ('Rules of Engagement' & 'Glory Points' in White Dwarf, March 2019)

I have to restrain myself from putting on the tinfoil hat.

Because sometimes it seems like GW "accidentally" messes up the balancing and rules, because I've watched a stack of IH supplements vanish like they came with a hot chick and lifetime supply of beer.

I also 'accidentally' had a bunch of $1 and $5 bills and got lost, and went into a strip club to ask for directions...

Take off your tin-foil hat. If GW is making rules or points values to sell models, they are even worst at their job than if they are honestly trying to balance things.

Think about it. If they are using rules to sell models then their miss rate is simply unexplainable. What model from the entire Phobos range is actually selling like hot cakes? What about the new Chaos Space Marine kits from early 2019? Which of those besides the Lord Discordant is burning up the meta and selling out all the time? Sure, the sold out the Adepta Sororitas Army Box, but do you hear anyone crowing about the OP model in that box or Codex?

 alextroy wrote:
Take off your tin-foil hat. If GW is making rules or points values to sell models, they are even worst at their job than if they are honestly trying to balance things.

Think about it. If they are using rules to sell models then their miss rate is simply unexplainable. What model from the entire Phobos range is actually selling like hot cakes? What about the new Chaos Space Marine kits from early 2019? Which of those besides the Lord Discordant is burning up the meta and selling out all the time? Sure, the sold out the Adepta Sororitas Army Box, but do you hear anyone crowing about the OP model in that box or Codex?

I'll do one better.

[Puts on EVEN BIGGER Tinfoil hat]

Many of the models that are more appealing are older, non-Primaris Models and GW is deliberately flawing the rules in order to get as many of these models sold off as possible before ultimately discontinuing all production and support for Non-Primaris marines.

I have ascended from the lesser conspiracy theory and I am now become one with the greater, more insane conspiracy theory.

Another (thing that seems like an) error: (Astra Militarum) Lascannons received a 5 point points drop, twin lascannons did not receive a points adjustment and have remained at 2x the previous cost, while every other twin weapon that I have looked at is consistently priced at 2x the base weapon.

But guys, Jervis told us that GW uses a magical points calculating super computer spreadsheet to come up with points values which is almost always correct.*

The output of that computer is only as good as the assumptions made in the creation of the formula used to create the outputs. Given that GW seems to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the way their own game is being played, and it would be exeptionally difficult to actually account for all possible factors and variables, I think its safe to say that what they think is a correct points value is far removed from what would actually be a correct points value.

 Trickstick wrote:
I've actually became very skeptical over some of the points values after some thought today. I'll give two examples: astropaths and ogryn. Both unusual points changes and both reversions back to their Codex values. Ogryn hardly needed a points increase, and Astropaths are pretty much must-takes now.

I have a sneaking suspicion that these are errors, where the original Codex value was copied and the previous CA values were forgotten. I would like to know if anyone else can spot similar changes, as these are just the ones that jumped out at me being a Guard player. If this is a widespread phenomena it could mean that the whole document is massively corrupted.

I know I'm being a broken record but how else do you explain gw giving almost every low in the game a point cut but leaving the hellforged/relic ones at their astronomically overinflated prices other than just copying their prices from last year's ca?

I think gw just forgets about certain units. I had to email them repeatedly for a couple months just to get them to realize that the hellforged versions were literally the only super heavys that weren't relentless and get them to give them daemonic machine spirit.

GW seems to forget a ton of stuff. If there was ever any proof the game is bloated to feth, it's that they often forget their own rules and errata and even units!