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2019/12/12 15:00:47
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
These are not Laws, they are rules for a game. We can and absolutely should ignore obvious nonsense.
Do they come in writen form and exist to govern social interaction between people ? I think yes, unless my store is the only one in the world where people play the game, and all the stories about playing and even tournaments are just imagined by people.
I got disqualifed in a competition once for, my locker having its seal broken when I was having a match. did it have any impact on the match? no. The event was in a place where everything was surveilled, so I didn't sneak in between matchs to juice up before the match. No one cared, seal broke equals being disqualified. And IMO my matchs have more weight then w40k tournaments, I don't think anyones school scholarship depend on how well they play.
You're equating 40k rules to anti-doping regulations in sport? Really? Dude, you need to stop looking at everything through such a narrow lens. IT seems like every single analogy you come up with is to do with some sort of overly competitive high school sporting event that has very little relation to...well, anything, never mind 40k. If you're going to approach 40k like some life-and-death sporting event you're pretty much always going to be frustrated and disappointed with the results.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
As a previous poster said, I'm calling BS on that story. Which event was it? If it was an official GW Golden Demon I'm sure there was a genuine reason for the DQ, assuming such a thing happened at all.
2019/12/12 15:04:06
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
catbarf wrote: So, should a tournament:
-Just house-rule the 55pt GSC back to 5pts?
I think they should do just that one thing. I may not be that familiar with GSC, but isn't it a basic troop choice that any army would pretty much be sure to take? Without that one fix, you are effetively banning GSC from your tournament. That is a decision you have to make as a TO. All (well, pretty much) tournaments have house rules, it seems like this is a no-brainer change to make.
Togusa wrote: Local tournament is making the GSC players use the 55ppm until an errata comes out.
That, is the toppest of keks.
Unless an actual GW designer is attending and playing GSCs, I fail to see how this is a positive thing.
blood reaper wrote: I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.
the_scotsman wrote: Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"
Argive wrote: GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.
You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.
Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
2019/12/12 16:03:14
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Togusa wrote: Local tournament is making the GSC players use the 55ppm until an errata comes out.
That, is the toppest of keks.
Unless an actual GW designer is attending and playing GSCs, I fail to see how this is a positive thing.
Small tournaments do it. Word travels fast and the fact that it is being discussed on dakka is proof of that. Big tournaments are forced to make statements "No 55 pts is dumb" or "Well its dumb but we can't cherry pick things just because we think they are awful decisions. So yes 55pt GSC and marine supplements will be used until further notice."
Edit: And then once big tournaments do it we see decisions made like the CSM errata to officially define point costs for Oblits.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/12 16:05:08
2019/12/12 16:26:46
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
catbarf wrote: I think the people saying 'it's an obvious typo and the TO is a dick for enforcing it' are somewhat missing the point.
Tournaments need to establish consistent standards for what is considered 'the rules' and what's house-ruling.
So, should a tournament:
-Just house-rule the 55pt GSC back to 5pts?
-Also revert all the changes that appear to have been carry-overs from codex values rather than last year's CA?
-Do their own balance pass that supersedes CA entirely?
Because now we're getting into the weeds of subjectivity, and while we can all pretty readily agree that 55pt GSC troops is utterly ridiculous and clearly a mistake, I imagine there will be more disagreement about what else is a mistake.
I wouldn't want to be the TO who has to argue with players over whether my interpretation of GW's mistakes is correct. So I can understand the approach they're taking here: We're playing a tournament using official rules, this is the publication that GW says is official, use it as-is.
And I hope it draws attention, because maybe then GW will actually errata it, rather than rely on the goodwill of the community to patch up the $30 book that exists literally for no other reason than to be the final arbiter of points costs.
Oh. A cute slippery slope fallacy.
Any TO engaging any kind of critical judgement can differentiate a typo from ‘let’s just throw all the rules out’...
Though tbf the list likening any of this to doping in sports wins the prize in this thread. Wot even.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2019/12/12 17:06:22
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
I never implied there is any sort of slippery slope or progression at all, so no. It's a subjective choice on the part of the TO as to what level of modification they want to apply to GW's ruleset.
JohnnyHell wrote: Any TO engaging any kind of critical judgement can differentiate a typo from ‘let’s just throw all the rules out’...
I know the GSC points cost is a typo. I feel pretty confident that the Ogryn and Astropath point changes are typos too, along with the other inexplicable reversions to Codex point values. Do you agree? Will everyone else agree?
The 55pt Cultists are just the most egregious example, demonstrating that no real effort was put into proofreading the document. With that established now there's no way to know which balance changes were deliberate and which are accidents, so we can only guess. It's up to GW alone to fix it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/12 17:09:56
While I expect professionalism from a company, a lot of the errors in the book are at least somewhat understandable.
But the gsc 55 point typo? Someone clearly didn't even bother to skim the points sheet. THEN the person who had the finished copy didn't bother to do it either. I'd imagine they'd have 1-2 professional or non-professional testers or something similar who would also skim through it. Nope. All missed this. That to me is just crazy.
Maybe a little dramatic, but this wasn't a mistake. It's a massive screw up.
2019/12/12 21:33:15
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
Games Workshop Delenda Est.
Users on ignore- 53.
If you break apart my or anyone else's posts line by line I will not read them.
2019/12/12 21:43:07
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
All the way from Poland? I sincerely doubt you hear everything about the hobby either there or middle of nowhere Wyoming.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/12/12 21:57:22
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
All the way from Poland? I sincerely doubt you hear everything about the hobby either there or middle of nowhere Wyoming.
Story indicated this happened at a Spanish Golden Demon event - given the painting scene in Spain, I think we would've heard about it had it happened as described.
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2019/12/12 23:34:38
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
A dude got told not to bring his models to the Citadel because he had bases that weren't from GW (and they didn't even say, "they are from another company", they said "They aren't GW's work" so for all we know he could have made them).
This stuff was all over Social Media in a matter of hours.
Mob Rule is not a rule.
2019/12/13 00:04:50
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
I never implied there is any sort of slippery slope or progression at all, so no. It's a subjective choice on the part of the TO as to what level of modification they want to apply to GW's ruleset.
JohnnyHell wrote: Any TO engaging any kind of critical judgement can differentiate a typo from ‘let’s just throw all the rules out’...
I know the GSC points cost is a typo. I feel pretty confident that the Ogryn and Astropath point changes are typos too, along with the other inexplicable reversions to Codex point values. Do you agree? Will everyone else agree?
The 55pt Cultists are just the most egregious example, demonstrating that no real effort was put into proofreading the document. With that established now there's no way to know which balance changes were deliberate and which are accidents, so we can only guess. It's up to GW alone to fix it.
So you’re choosing not to exercise any critical judgement. That’s... a decision. I think it’s fairly obvious what category the 55pt Cultists fall under but do keep pretending it’s something to build a narrative off of.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
2019/12/13 00:16:46
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
I find it funnier that people keep defending this gak and actually are okay with the level of bloat that the game has, calling it "depth" and in general missing the entire point. The constant errors, lack of knowing their own rules, gakky copy/paste jobs all point to the fact they are trying to do too much too fast and there are too many layers in the game.
Yet people are okay with it.
- Wayne
Formerly WayneTheGame
2019/12/13 01:11:44
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Adeptus Doritos wrote: A dude got told not to bring his models to the Citadel because he had bases that weren't from GW (and they didn't even say, "they are from another company", they said "They aren't GW's work" so for all we know he could have made them).
This stuff was all over Social Media in a matter of hours.
I'm curious about this as I haven't heard about that at all. Granted I'm not the most social media savvy person out there, and we've all heard "no non-GW models" being done, but bases? I wanna see what happened there.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
All the way from Poland? I sincerely doubt you hear everything about the hobby either there or middle of nowhere Wyoming.
Story indicated this happened at a Spanish Golden Demon event - given the painting scene in Spain, I think we would've heard about it had it happened as described.
Is there something special and social about the Spanish painting scene?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/13 01:12:34
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/12/13 02:01:39
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
JohnnyHell wrote: So you’re choosing not to exercise any critical judgement. That’s... a decision. I think it’s fairly obvious what category the 55pt Cultists fall under but do keep pretending it’s something to build a narrative off of.
I see you are choosing not to exercise any reading comprehension, so I think we're done here.
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
if it's a karol story, its bs. He's been caught out before telling stories that are in direct conflict with each other, saying things like he's a brand new player who started this year but in other posts talking about how he's played the game for a decade and it's never been this bad, etc. He has a new absurdly outlandish story for every single thread, my favorite one was the one about the gang vs gang brawls stemming over warhammer games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/13 02:46:48
2019/12/13 04:05:28
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
catbarf wrote: I think the people saying 'it's an obvious typo and the TO is a dick for enforcing it' are somewhat missing the point.
Tournaments need to establish consistent standards for what is considered 'the rules' and what's house-ruling.
So, should a tournament:
-Just house-rule the 55pt GSC back to 5pts?
-Also revert all the changes that appear to have been carry-overs from codex values rather than last year's CA?
-Do their own balance pass that supersedes CA entirely?
Because now we're getting into the weeds of subjectivity, and while we can all pretty readily agree that 55pt GSC troops is utterly ridiculous and clearly a mistake, I imagine there will be more disagreement about what else is a mistake.
I wouldn't want to be the TO who has to argue with players over whether my interpretation of GW's mistakes is correct. So I can understand the approach they're taking here: We're playing a tournament using official rules, this is the publication that GW says is official, use it as-is.
And I hope it draws attention, because maybe then GW will actually errata it, rather than rely on the goodwill of the community to patch up the $30 book that exists literally for no other reason than to be the final arbiter of points costs.
That's an odd position to take.
Because I would not want to play at a tournament with judges who weren't aware of the various errors and mistakes in the game and willing to make corrections. Usually the expected standards are:
- One month delay after the publication of a new book, so that people can become familiar with it, discover the errors, and pray for an early errata.
- If there are any errata in use by the tournament, provide in advance to the players.
That way there's no argument, and no one has to deal with ridiculous typos in the point lists.
Disclaimer: Have played 40k since 3rd edition, and fondly remember the Adoption FAQ.
What's the betting pool concerning GW's errata to Chapter Approved?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/13 04:06:33
2019/12/13 04:48:53
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Doesn't matter. You should see the gak that makes it through legislatures. It happens. RAW is not a thing in real law if the result is absurd or clearly not the intent.
2019/12/13 05:42:59
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Martel732 wrote: Doesn't matter. You should see the gak that makes it through legislatures. It happens. RAW is not a thing in real law if the result is absurd or clearly not the intent.
That's an excuse though. The more we don't reinforce RAW the more sloppiness we get with GW saying "figure it out yourselves". Does that make sense.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
2019/12/13 06:01:09
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Or to use a w40k example, one of the older players at my store has a wife, who is an artists and a graphic designer. She makes models that look like art pices. She went to spain to take part in golden demon, she got disqualifed because the judges decided that the two models diorama she made was not fair, and a tau kroot could never fight an eldar wright lord. And the model is beatiful, it has trees, the troop has the wright lord traped with some sort of trap, so it is falling down. The whole wright lord body is covered in painted stars, that reflect in a pool of water on the diorama. Doesn't matter, not legal, no matter how stupid it is.
I'm going to cal BS on this one. There's GOT to be more to the story. Or maybe she didn't win because it was a silly scenario but I doubt she was necessarily disqualified.
Karol telling cock and bull stories about his gaming group? Say it isn't so!
This hobby is a relatively small one, if something like that did occur it would be all over the various social platforms quicker than stink on gak.
All the way from Poland? I sincerely doubt you hear everything about the hobby either there or middle of nowhere Wyoming.
Story indicated this happened at a Spanish Golden Demon event - given the painting scene in Spain, I think we would've heard about it had it happened as described.
Is there something special and social about the Spanish painting scene?
It's definitely known for its quality, and with painters such as Angel Giraldez in the area, you can see why.
I think if there had been a controversy at a Spanish GD - and the theoretical events would qualify as a controversy - then there'd've been noise about it.
As an aside, Karol - are there any examples of this lady's work up online, as far as you're aware? I'd be interested in seeing them, if they're as good as you're claiming.
(Edit: Flaming spoiler tags and quote trees *grumble* )
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/13 06:54:36
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
2019/12/13 14:09:35
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
So, on the topic of the thread, apparently we are getting a FAQ in the next couple of weeks.
Of note in the rumor mill:
- The Custodes FW changes were a mistake, the Callidus should not have been dropped, same with the Telemon.
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
This all leads me to point out, yet again, that GW has ZERO clue what it's departments are all doing, and there is little or no communication.
2019/12/13 16:13:27
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
how the feth do you mess that up? If this is true it means that basically all of CA2019 could be wrong, no?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2019/12/13 16:13:36
2019/12/13 16:32:46
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Martel732 wrote: Doesn't matter. You should see the gak that makes it through legislatures. It happens. RAW is not a thing in real law if the result is absurd or clearly not the intent.
Problem with GW is just that no one knows what is intended and what not.
of course people forget what happened in the past GW intended something different than what the community thought and the absurd result was the right one.
We just don't know what are typos and what is intended and either we assume everything is right or everything is wrong, or we need to ignore CA until we get an Errata.
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2019/12/13 16:34:54
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: So, on the topic of the thread, apparently we are getting a FAQ in the next couple of weeks.
Of note in the rumor mill:
- The Custodes FW changes were a mistake, the Callidus should not have been dropped, same with the Telemon.
- A lot of the changes that went live were previously written, and there was no oversight since they were written, leading to them going out incorrect.
- Several changes that were meant to go out didn't make the printing date.
This all leads me to point out, yet again, that GW has ZERO clue what it's departments are all doing, and there is little or no communication.
If any of that is true then this kind of thing is EXACTLY why *~critical judgement~* to divine the true intention behind rules is a BS concept.
2019/12/13 16:37:51
Subject: So, another year, another error riddled Chapter Approved
Martel732 wrote: That's why TOs are basically judges. The rules say what the TOs say they say.
Just like the law is what the judges say it is, regardless of the legislature's intent.
Yep. This. And if you're not in an event, it's just a matter of having a quick chat with your opponent, as long as neither of you are going to be a big melt about it.
