Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

nataliereed1984 wrote:
Out of sincere curiosity, and a desire to move things away from That Knight, how does everyone in this thread with pro-WYSIWYG views feel about improvised scenery? Like, using beer cans as "atmospheric treatment gas canisters", or spare codexes and books from other games as "hills" or "temples", that kind of thing, and how it interacts with modelling?

Honestly it creates enough terrain to do stuff in game so I'm find with it. Some stuff can be easy to make though. In the 3rd edition codex for Necrons, where was an EXCELLENT section on making Crystals with some styrofoam and painted carefully a very dark green with light green on the edges. Anyone got a scan of that actually?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
Out of sincere curiosity, and a desire to move things away from That Knight, how does everyone in this thread with pro-WYSIWYG views feel about improvised scenery? Like, using beer cans as "atmospheric treatment gas canisters", or spare codexes and books from other games as "hills" or "temples", that kind of thing, and how it interacts with modelling?

Honestly it creates enough terrain to do stuff in game so I'm find with it. Some stuff can be easy to make though. In the 3rd edition codex for Necrons, where was an EXCELLENT section on making Crystals with some styrofoam and painted carefully a very dark green with light green on the edges. Anyone got a scan of that actually?

Do you have access to a 3d printer? It's actually really easy to print crystals with clear filament, stain them green with something like contrast paint (or use clear green filament) and put them over LED tea candles to make glowing crystals.

Also stuff like this is super easy to make:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3175093

Well, generally, I'm not a fan. It is hindering immersion, overlooking a huge part of the hobby, and it is just a shame to see miniatures with hours upon hours of creative work put into them sat down next to a coke bottle or a piece of bare styrofoam

Now, everything is context dependent. I remember a time my brother and I played games on a family holiday in a rented summer house on a small island in the Swedish archipelago. It might not have been perfect, we had to throw the dice over and over again because we didn't have enough, and it took an awful long time. Yet we had all day, we were out in the sun, and as such it was just pretty funny to try and remember which twigs were warp spiders and which were a falcon. We even ended up getting pretty into it and immersed too.

Now, that scenario is rather different than how things work in pick up plays in store, or at a tournament. As an opposing example, I remember a local tournament (it isn't running anymore.), where if you drew unlucky numbers in the first two rounds, or if you got your ass handed to you by some über beard and landed up far down the list... Then you ended up playing in the back of the hall, where the organizers ran out of good pieces of terrain and all the bright green bare tables and stuff ended up. It were remarkably less fun to play on (and not just because it felt like punishment). I remember one match where my opponent and I gave up on deciphering what kind of terrain those strange pieces of foam arranged on our assigned table were supposed to be, and simply called everything impassable. It is just bland and boring, and possibly breeding ground for conflict. Also, I can still remember the image of his very skillfully painted captain juxtaposed on a background of lime green wood and smudge grey styrofoam to this day

Well, my friend just used his nativity scene as his models, and he plays Chaos. So the Wise men were Daemon princes and the manger was a small building. I guess this is better than his Furby Daemon prince.

But this is just getting too silly. Someone call Monty Python.

Like I said, as long as it's clear and well demonstrated what is what, I generally don't have much of an issue. It's just the usual super try hard with his blue IH/RG army that I can't tell what is what.

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
...Someone call Monty Python...

I did make a rabbit out of greenstuff and use the stats for a Daemon Prince for it once. Even though this was back in 4e it never got killed by a BT character with the Holy Orbs of Antioch, which was a disappointment.

 Fajita Fan wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

nataliereed1984 wrote:
Out of sincere curiosity, and a desire to move things away from That Knight, how does everyone in this thread with pro-WYSIWYG views feel about improvised scenery? Like, using beer cans as "atmospheric treatment gas canisters", or spare codexes and books from other games as "hills" or "temples", that kind of thing, and how it interacts with modelling?

Honestly it creates enough terrain to do stuff in game so I'm find with it. Some stuff can be easy to make though. In the 3rd edition codex for Necrons, where was an EXCELLENT section on making Crystals with some styrofoam and painted carefully a very dark green with light green on the edges. Anyone got a scan of that actually?

Do you have access to a 3d printer? It's actually really easy to print crystals with clear filament, stain them green with something like contrast paint (or use clear green filament) and put them over LED tea candles to make glowing crystals.

Also stuff like this is super easy to make:
https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3175093

AH a summoning core! Very lovely. I'm assuming that they're using some of those flying stands in the middle for the floating effect?

Wysiwyg is just made from players not from gw.
And even wysiwyg make nothing easier.
I know really know one and I never met one who knows all optics from6all weapons and so on.
you still have to say... That's weapon xy that's blah blah and so on just because of Noone knows all models for all weapons and all things that you can use.

[the thing I was replying to doesn't seem to be here anymore?]

Yes, flying stands or any clear acrylic rod can make the Necron stuff appear to float.

Nah, 8mm isn’t that small. WIP But I really like this game and having everything WYSIWYG makes it smoother.

Why does this forum keep rotating my pics?

 Charistoph wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Do any of the other terminator kits have the level of flexibility of CSM terminators?

Space Wolf Guard Terminators, I believe.

Spoiler:

- 4 Wolf Claw sets
- 1 Assault Cannon
- 4 Thunder Hammers/Storm Shields
- 1 Heavy Flamer
- 5 Storm Bolters
- 3 Power Fists
- 2 Chainfists
- 1 Frost Axe
- 1 Power Sword

versus Chaos Terminator's:
- 1 chain axe
- 1 chainfist
- 1 power sword
- 1 power axe
- 1 power maul
- 2 power fists
- 2 lightning claws
- 1 heavy flamer
- 1 reaper autocannon
- 5 combi-weapons

The Tartaros Terminators:
- 5 Twin-linked Bolters
- 5 Left-handed Power Fists
- 5 Chain-fist add-ons
- 5 Right-handed Power Fists
- 10 Lighting Claw add-ons
- Reaper Autocannon
- Heavy Flamer
- Power Sword
- Plasma Blaster
- Volkite Charger
- Grenade Harness

That's not just every option that the squad can take; you can't even field them with right-handed Power Fists. That bit exists soley for the Twin Lightning Claw option but they still put it on the sprue as two pieces for reasons. All my Intercessor Sergeant Power Fists came from the two boxes of Tartaros that I bought.

If I'm not mistaken the Cataphracii Terminator kit is similarly loaded.

Thread seems largely done but FWIW I think out and out proxying is bad.
And "here is my army made of scrap and weird stuff cobbled together over 20 years" is almost always worse even if it isn't modelling for advantage.
"My Ironhands are Blue because, you know" is a bit lame.

But at the same time, I find the "yeah, the optimal loadout is X, but we are only going to include 1 in the box" to be infuriating - and bad form from GW. It is just a money spinning exercise - either to GW or third party sources. I'm of the view that yes, you shouldn't have to convert Killa Kans to have rokkits because you only get 1 in the box - just say that they all have that. It can be a bit lame when people say "this melta is a flamer now" but... eh. I can live with it.

But then.. imo at least, just take 5 minutes to run through your army at the start. "This is a unit of Killa Kans, they all have Rokkits" - done. Takes about 5 seconds. Yes it may prevent "haha, gotcha, this unit's going to tear you into little pieces" - but I don't feel thats the best way to make friends.

Tbh though - and this might be book keeping on my part - I find WYSIWG is more useful for stopping cheating (either deliberately or by omission) than "confusion". It stops the "okay sure that guy has a lascannon, but I didn't pay the points for it". *1 hour later* - "yeah, now about that lascannon, lets fire that now."

Whereas to go with our Killa Kanz above - if they have rokkits, you are unlikely to suddenly go "wait, did I say rokkits, I meant Skorchas, obviously, yeah...."

Why can't an Iron Hands successor be blue?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why can't an Iron Hands successor be blue?

Yeah, blue with Ultramarines symbols and squad marking methology.


Wait a minute...

 Just Tony wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why can't an Iron Hands successor be blue?

Yeah, blue with Ultramarines symbols and squad marking methology.


Wait a minute...

The toilet seat is a generic symbol overall. Unless you're going over the top with Greek themes, who are you to say they aren't an Iron Hands successor?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why can't an Iron Hands successor be blue?

Yeah, blue with Ultramarines symbols and squad marking methology.


Wait a minute...

The toilet seat is a generic symbol overall. Unless you're going over the top with Greek themes, who are you to say they aren't an Iron Hands successor?

Why would ultramarines not be able to replicate the Iron hands warefare style to almost an exact Point, Or any marine chapter really should probably be able to replicate it. To many Unique rules seems to erode the marines narrative more than ad to it

Wasn't the point about someone using blue marines to represent Iron Hands, rather than one of their successors?

Though I guess in that case the player really should just say they're a successor who's rules function as IH...

Actually, that raises a good question:

Do y'all think it's fine to say that a custom chapter / regiment / forgeworld / cult / coven / kabal / craftworld / dynasty / WHATEVER counts as an established one? Like, I say that my AdMech from the fortress-moon of Phobos count-as Mars, and that's pretty easy to say is fine, since Phobos is literally the remaining moon of Mars and they wear very very similar colours (in my particular interpretation they do, anyway. I just use the darker Gal Vorbak red as the base for their robes), but…

…say I wanted to make some Imperial Guard who represent the Imperials garrisoned on Phobos (it's the principal hub of Mars' defensive perimeter, so it makes sense from both a "protecting our vital assets" standpoint and a "preventing Martian rebellion / secession" one for Imperials to be there too). Would it be fine for me to just say they count-as Cadians or Savlar or whatever, for the sake of rules?

I've always assumed that wouldn't bother anyone, but this idea of no-you-can't-have-blue-IH-successor is making me wonder…

T1nk4bell wrote:
Wysiwyg is just made from players not from gw.

If you weren't playing back then, please see this discussion of WYSIWYG for its description of the 40k 5th edition rules.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/213703.page

I think 3rd edition specified standards for upgrades, but my books are in a storage unit at the moment.

This has gone real long since last I checked in but I feel like things have taken an odd turn.

The only reason to be against WYSIWYG is because you want to be less than casual in the first place. As playing casual, I've never had an issue running my models as I set them up and still win more games than I lose.

Playing this game means how you set up troops and vehicles will often fluctuate a lot over the years from amazing, to crap, to hot to not.

There is no reason to not follow WYSIWYG outside of wanting to bring the most hurt. Now the random proxy to try stuff out to try out new models I think we've all done, I however have no issue just taking my forces as they were made good bad or kind middle of the road.

As a not so wise man once said, you fight with the army you have no the army you want.

It makes you have to play smarter and harder if you aren't always taking the most twinked net list, so why not just try and see what happens ?

If you play in an area where it's all take the best or not even play, I imagine they are already huge on tournaments and that means to keep up there you already need to spend a fortune min maxing your armies to compete so I don't see WYSIWYG as a problem then either as it will be enforced most of the time anyways.

Just as a side note, I'm neither an elitist nor am I mega rich. I'm just a guy, who doesn't feel the need to twink out my forces for every battle. ( My chimeras have multi laser turrets even ! and I use chimeras ! ). I think a vast majority of a list can be done up right though and I hold myself to that same standard.

The contents of the boxes has often and long been a lament but you can work around it if you try and if you can't, you can still win if you work at it. I'm hardly a GW super fan but on this I think we often over focus on what is the best.

Now if a whole unit is just awful forever, that is another story..

WYSIWYG - yeah, but no . . .

I can see the relevance in a skirmish game, not so much for a 100+ figure count game. At that point individual squad member equipment is not the generals/players problem. The squads are Tactical/Assault/Devastator in role.

Whether GW adhere to the concept simply to sell more figures is irrelevant - you either buy in to their version of the game, or play your own. Although from experience I have had no problem with largely ignoring WYSIWYG, if I tell my opponents in advance what the unit is and am consistent.

“All the Ork Boyz are Shootaz, except the black ones which are Sluggaz.”

Problems can arise when players rely on an opponents lack of information to produce a ‘Gotcha!’ moment. I believe this is bad for the game, and what we have Strategems for?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Why can't an Iron Hands successor be blue?

They can be. They also might just happen to have a white inverted omega symbol. But when they start having things like "Macragge" or "Ultramar" or "Ultra" or any other word typically associated with the sons of Guilliman on their armour? Then they're Ultramarines.

In the same way a black armoured Space Marine could be a Raven Guard, Iron Hand, or Black Consul, or any other successor Chapter, reducing a Chapter to just their primary colour scheme isn't what people mean by "these guys are obviously XYZ Chapter", in the same way a plasma pistol and bolt pistol are different, despite both being one handed pistol weaponry.

WYSIWYG is also about immersion. People like the universe and like to see models and armies that reflect that universe and its lore. Part of that lore is sometimes that for instance Chaos Terminators, as veterans who have been fighting and looting for millennia, may well have different weapons to each other. Building cookie cutter lists of 6x5 man squads all with the same 2 special weapons is boring and against the spirit of the world.

I think for sure GW could do better with the sprue options they provide, and for sure GW could do better with their rules not making different options so variable in power level and then changing that on a regular schedule, but it is what it is. 40k as played by many people is a narrative game not a competitive one.

If you support wysiwyg don't play anyone that plays min squad wych cult units.

Combat drugs are invisible, and have to be different for each unit. If you can manage that you can manage other armies

 FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Can we stop the cavetching about models literally no one uses or has used for all of 8th? Until very recently is was an extremely overcosted and weak unit that was basically replaced by aggressors and primaris. They are now some of the worst units around. We might as well be complaining about how there is only one psycannon in the Grey knights paladin box. Who cares? No one uses them.

If we want to legitimately argue WYSIWYG then we need to argue current models being hamstrung by this. Here's an example:

Custodes have to buy a 100$ worth of models to make flags and shield captains with axes. Two Models.

A) It's not $100 for two characters, you're getting six Wardens to go along with them.
B) The Primaris characters are $35, that $100 only gets one more that Custodes.

...

C) It's actually $120 iirc, Wardens are a $60 kit.

 fraser1191 wrote:
If you support wysiwyg don't play anyone that plays min squad wych cult units.

Combat drugs are invisible, and have to be different for each unit. If you can manage that you can manage other armies

obviously models with the drug 'upgrade' are painted with dilated pupils to achieve wysiwyg.

 fraser1191 wrote:
If you support wysiwyg don't play anyone that plays min squad wych cult units.

Combat drugs are invisible, and have to be different for each unit. If you can manage that you can manage other armies

WYSIWYG is about modeling the wargear that comes on a sprue to represent the models in your list. There’s no way to differentiate between the different game effects of standard bearers but you are obligated to 1) make sure your standard bearer model is clear and 2) make sure opponent is aware of its in game effect.

Expecting an opponent to bring a legible, printed army list is also an accepted standard (and a rule for tournament play that I totally support even for casual play) but that’s discriminatory against people with bad handwriting or too poor for paper isn’t it? I’m sure you trust your opponent’s math and accept mental lists though.

 fraser1191 wrote:
Combat drugs are invisible, and have to be different for each unit.

Have you been trampled under the rush of wargamers trying to tell you about markers being used to denote game states that can change from game to game, or that change during the game?

 solkan wrote:

T1nk4bell wrote:
Wysiwyg is just made from players not from gw.

If you weren't playing back then, please see this discussion of WYSIWYG for its description of the 40k 5th edition rules.
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/213703.page

I think 3rd edition specified standards for upgrades, but my books are in a storage unit at the moment.

3rd Edition rulebook, page 167 under Choosing an Army section, Weapon Options & Upgrades subsection, second paragraph.


And as far as the whole proxy Ultramarines as Iron Hands fethery, I'm done with disingenuous arguments set to excuse powergaming. I'm not dignifying your ridiculous counterpoints with a legitimate response.

Apple fox wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Just Tony wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Why can't an Iron Hands successor be blue?

Yeah, blue with Ultramarines symbols and squad marking methology.


Wait a minute...

The toilet seat is a generic symbol overall. Unless you're going over the top with Greek themes, who are you to say they aren't an Iron Hands successor?

Why would ultramarines not be able to replicate the Iron hands warefare style to almost an exact Point, Or any marine chapter really should probably be able to replicate it. To many Unique rules seems to erode the marines narrative more than ad to it

Which is a point I've made before about rules bloat causing several imbalances to begin with. I want more streamlined rules, these Supplements are the antithesis of that. I want 90% of that content gone, period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:Why can't an Iron Hands successor be blue?

They can be. They also might just happen to have a white inverted omega symbol. But when they start having things like "Macragge" or "Ultramar" or "Ultra" or any other word typically associated with the sons of Guilliman on their armour? Then they're Ultramarines.

In the same way a black armoured Space Marine could be a Raven Guard, Iron Hand, or Black Consul, or any other successor Chapter, reducing a Chapter to just their primary colour scheme isn't what people mean by "these guys are obviously XYZ Chapter", in the same way a plasma pistol and bolt pistol are different, despite both being one handed pistol weaponry.

Yeah that doesn't really exist outside things like the Honour Guard and certain weapon bitz or the Ancient (I think), so that's not an issue like it's being made to be.

Do y'all think it's fine to say that a custom chapter / regiment / forgeworld / cult / coven / kabal / craftworld / dynasty / WHATEVER counts as an established one? Like, I say that my AdMech from the fortress-moon of Phobos count-as Mars, and that's pretty easy to say is fine, since Phobos is literally the remaining moon of Mars and they wear very very similar colours (in my particular interpretation they do, anyway. I just use the darker Gal Vorbak red as the base for their robes), but…

Paint is paint. For the longest time people have even used the rules/wargear for special characters like Lysander in, say, an Ultramarines or Salamanders army which all come from the basic marine codex. Make a green thunderhammer/SS Terminator captain, call him Sammy the Salamander, and use his rules to represent your Salamander captain, not really an issue as your still using a codex entry with his wargear represented. Just choosing a regular storm Bolter/fist terminator and using Lysander’s rules is a different story.

The same went for using an army to represent another army. If someone wanted to use the basic marine book to make a Blood Angels army (forgoing all the units, rules, and wargear from the BA codex) then it doesn’t matter at all - you can paint your codex marine army red and call them Blood Angels, Blood Brothers, Bloods, Red Guys, the Arizona Cardinals, whatever. Actually in 4th ed 40k I think it was actually better to build your Blood Angels out of the regular marine codex...

People made Thousand Sons armies out of the 5th ed GK codex, so long as you modeled all of your guys with halberds or swords or the correct wargear and you’re not sneaking in allied demons again it doesn’t matter to me whether your models match your codex. People did chaos armies with the 5th edition Wolves codex by modeling their thunderwolf riders on juggernauts.

nareik wrote:

 fraser1191 wrote:
If you support wysiwyg don't play anyone that plays min squad wych cult units.

Combat drugs are invisible, and have to be different for each unit. If you can manage that you can manage other armies

obviously models with the drug 'upgrade' are painted with dilated pupils to achieve wysiwyg.

No no no. You use dilated pupils for adrenalight, pinprick pupils for hypex, clammy sweat for splintermind, track marks for painbringer, and a scabby nose for grave lotus…