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 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Chopstick wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

Chopstick wrote:
Yes because the best way to teach people how to paint is a 2 hour video about color theory and painting technique, "And here's the final product! Go find your own color, dont copy me peasant!"

Yeah.......it is. MAybe not two hours, but it can be.

Nobody who just starting out would have the time to invest, or even understand what happen in that kind of video. The best way to start out is always copying until you get an idea and understand of the basic, wanting people to invest into painting (as a hobby) by forcing them not to paint, but hearing lecture is probably the best way to scare them away,

I mean, what do you think is better?
"Here is a way to paint this model, and only this model"
or
"Here is a Breakdown of the layering technique and how to apply it across multiple models.

I don't think the answer is as obvious as you think. Yes, videos on good techniques are useful. But how many of them do I need? How many times do I need to see someone explain drybrushing, layering or wet blending? I would say: once, but done well. Most of those videos already exist.

The thing about videos that are essentially color recipes for specific models? You can have as many of those as there are specific models and colour schemes. I get that you think you've see that all before, but really, what haven't you seen before? Certainly not another tutorial on non-metallic metals.

Having said that, I think some people skipped the intro video. This will be a subscription site. $5/£4 a month. There will still be free YouTube videos but most of the content will be on the site. It's that where I imagine we will see the more generic videos, as you need something that will keep people hooked even when they're not painting the models you're currently painting.

I mean i get that but i just feel as if rather than doing the way GW and it seem DR teaches is incredibly generic and promotes copycatting rather than learning your own way and how you do it and what you should do.
Think of it this way, Drawing books, many many illustrators i know started doing drawing books, How to draw manga and stuff like that or how to draw cats and such, one even had how to draw furries.
They all said that learning from those was great and good, but it resulted it a frankenstein style of drawing where nothing looked good or consistent, it wasn't until they started to learn new techniques and learning to do it their own way that they grew as artists and developed their own style.
These videos are those Illustration books

I disagree - I think in the context of what his videos are meant to achieve and teach they hit the mark.

Previously on several WHTV videos, he demonstrated several techniques that form a core for everything else - things like layering etc.

Besides, he's mentioned already that he is looking at doing videos more in depth tutorials later on. Perhaps he'll do something later on you can enjoy and agree with - if not all good mate, move on.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I mean i get that but i just feel as if rather than doing the way GW and it seem DR teaches is incredibly generic and promotes copycatting rather than learning your own way and how you do it and what you should do.
Think of it this way, Drawing books, many many illustrators i know started doing drawing books, How to draw manga and stuff like that or how to draw cats and such, one even had how to draw furries.
They all said that learning from those was great and good, but it resulted it a frankenstein style of drawing where nothing looked good or consistent, it wasn't until they started to learn new techniques and learning to do it their own way that they grew as artists and developed their own style.
These videos are those Illustration books

They are. And they are meant to be.
Those illustrators you mention may have no need for those books now, but did those not help them get started? Did those not teach them some useful basic techniques (e.g. starting with a core of simple shapes, setting out proportions)? Did they not acquire fine motor skills, and perhaps increased confidence in their ability? And as people have pointed out several times now, are those basics not sufficient for those who have no desire of going beyond that point?
If this one, single video released so far isn't for you, odds are it isn't meant to be. The fact that multiple people have already pointed out it is the kind of thing they do want, or something they used to enjoy when starting out, shows there is an audience for it, and that is all that matters. Whether you or I are part of that audience is entirely irrelevant. Maybe a future video will have more applications for experienced painters, maybe it won't. But to say these are somehow inherently bad is completely missing the point. Same as learning to illustrate. Same as learning a new language, where you start with whole sentences for which you don't yet understand the grammar. You have to start somewhere, and if you want to start somewhere that still gives you a finished model (rather than one in which only the armour is masterfully painted, the rest only undercoated), this is exactly the video you'd want.

But why not just start with those techniques to get a jump start and skip all of it? Why not start with glazing, learning volume and color theory and wetblending and tones and variation.
Learn for yourself and not copy people.
Yes these may not be for me, but as i have said, its also a flooded market and one the promotes stagnation and learning by following a step by step guide. So they never get better, they never learn to think for themselves and just get the paint the man on the YT got because he told me it will be good. Rather then going out, exploring new things and trying to learn to be better.
Why watch painting videos in general if not to be better?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Not everyone feels the need to constantly improve as a painter. Some people just wanna get their stuff non-grey. He has a market, and not everyone is going to fall into it, but such is life.

Why do something at all if you are not going to improve at it?:

This is a garbage hot take. Every painter has different potential, delineated by their circumstances, resources, mindset and natural ability. Personally, I've been doing this for 25 years. I painted the best miniatures I'll ever paint several years ago. There's never going to be improvement for me beyond that level. I'm getting older, and my eyesight and other faculties are steadily worsening.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Not everyone feels the need to constantly improve as a painter. Some people just wanna get their stuff non-grey. He has a market, and not everyone is going to fall into it, but such is life.

Why do something at all if you are not going to improve at it?:

This is a garbage hot take. Every painter has different potential, delineated by their circumstances, resources, mindset and natural ability. Personally, I've been doing this for 25 years. I painted the best miniatures I'll ever paint several years ago. There's never going to be improvement for me beyond that level. I'm getting older, and my eyesight and other faculties are steadily worsening.

Can’t really agree (not talking about the personal stuff).
But generally the more experience a person has in doing something, the more he is inclined to get better, while gaining that XP.
It might not be as one dimensional as “finer details”, but new techniques, or improvement on the old ones.

Personally, I don’t find WHC or Duncan’s videos useful(I would some time ago though). But others might get the help they need there. I would wager, that Duncan branching out into more artistic and specific techniques stuff would do him good and spark the interest of the people, who have already passed the “by the numbers” stage

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But why not just start with those techniques to get a jump start and skip all of it? Why not start with glazing, learning volume and color theory and wetblending and tones and variation.
Learn for yourself and not copy people.
Yes these may not be for me, but as i have said, its also a flooded market and one the promotes stagnation and learning by following a step by step guide. So they never get better, they never learn to think for themselves and just get the paint the man on the YT got because he told me it will be good. Rather then going out, exploring new things and trying to learn to be better.
Why watch painting videos in general if not to be better?

You clearly have never worked in Marketing.

Duncan has a very large fan base already based on doing these paint by numbers videos - as shown by his 33,000 subscribers from a single video, or 20,000 subscribers before he even released a painting video!

If the very first video he released was an in depth talk about colour theory, how many of these fans of paint by numbers do you think would drop their subscription?

Ultimately he is now a self employed man running a business, and the number one rule for running a business if give the people what they want - if you don't they will go elsewhere. If he has an interest in more in depth videos he can gradually steer his fans in that way. Maybe in 3 to 4 video times he will touch on wet blending, then in another 4 to 5 videos he'll do a video showcasing this in more detail, but to just immediately launch into something radically different to what he already did would just alienate his fan base, and seen him end up at the job centre looking fro a new job.

People also seem to be missing the rather obvious conclusion from him posting a basic paint-by-numbers tutorial on the free youtube channel - the advanced, non-paint-by-numbers stuff is going to be paid content.

If he does the WHTV-style "beginner" tutorials on a semi-regular basis for free on his YT channel, he maintains a solid following and can leverage the minority of that following that do want to improve and move on to more advanced techniques and concepts to make money.

SnotlingPimpWagon wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

This is a garbage hot take. Every painter has different potential, delineated by their circumstances, resources, mindset and natural ability. Personally, I've been doing this for 25 years. I painted the best miniatures I'll ever paint several years ago. There's never going to be improvement for me beyond that level. I'm getting older, and my eyesight and other faculties are steadily worsening.

Can’t really agree (not talking about the personal stuff).
But generally the more experience a person has in doing something, the more he is inclined to get better, while gaining that XP.
It might not be as one dimensional as “finer details”, but new techniques, or improvement on the old ones

There's a difference between skills and talent, though. One can be taught, whereas the other is either a product of or strongly influenced by inborn attributes like fine motor control, good eyesight, et cetera.

I dislike the notion and concept of "natural talent" in people. Mostly because people tend to thrust the concept high in the air when talking about the arts, but never really in other subject areas.

No one loudly proclaims that someone is a natural builder or roadsweeper or electrician. However art appears to hold some kind of mystical position in our minds that to achieve in it you have to be born with some kind of special brain. Then there's the whole left and right side thing that came out in school theory for a while that students were "either sciency or arty"


It's my observation that most people can achieve most things provided that they have a normally developed body and mind. The key is experience, practice, motivation, access to resources and guidance.
Heck if you look at many of the great musicians and artists (especially in the past) the majority show "pushy parents" often had them trained at a very young age. If you started playing the piano at 3 chances are by 18 you will be pretty darn good if its been a primary focus of your most formative education years.


The same is true for the arts. I think that we hold art in a mystical position today because, honestly, there are a lot of bad art teachers out there. The school system might also not play into the requirements to further the arts; but the teachers themselves are often not as skilled at a technical level as they should be. As a result many students are mostly left to develop their own skills rather than being given a proper grounding in the basic concepts, practice etc... As a result you get this "natural talent" angle develop in peoples minds as some fail and others seem to do well and the way schools work they fawn over one and abandon/discourage the other.


Heck miniature model painting alone should show many of us that we can learn painting skills and art skills to a pretty high level of skill. Furthermore geeky hobbies, which tend to attract those into the sciences, which have a high level of artistic creation; further show that ideas of "arty or sciency" are totally constructed concepts that don't really translate into reality.




In short Beethoven wasn't born a musician. He was born and from a very young age was trained extensively in the musical arts. By the time he was an adult he already had years of skills and understanding built up during the years when the human mind is most accepting and ready to process new information. If he'd started at 18 going to uni he'd have had to wait till his near 40s to have had just the same length of time learning.
Of course there are a very tiny percentage who do show what many would consider a "Savant" level of skill within a craft. How much of that is chance connections and how much is this mythological "Natural talent" is up for debate. It's perhaps the only area my theory falls down; however it applies to only a very tiny percentage of the population that its not worth considering for the vast majority of people.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I mean i get that but i just feel as if rather than doing the way GW and it seem DR teaches is incredibly generic and promotes copycatting rather than learning your own way and how you do it and what you should do.

But if he made videos that just taught generic techniques, would you watch those either? Or do you already have that knowledge?

This the problem - there's plenty of good painters on here that don't need YouTube tutorials at all. Which is fine. But those people saying they would rather have a different type of video for other people to watch, even though they will watch neither... it's not that useful. And for better or worse the sorts of tutorials GW did and Duncan has done in his first video tend to be very popular compared to those other videos. And can actually offer something different.

Now if the argument is that we don't actually need any more painting videos on YouTube, because the basic techniques are covered, and I can write down a colour recipe for a specific model in 2 minutes rather than make a 30 minute video... then yeah, you may have a point. Unless you think YouTube is still actually lacking for a really good basics and techniques series, which I can also see (there are many, many of them but no obvious "this is the best" has emerged)

I think is the opposite, there are gazillion low level or average painting tutorials but not many like painting budha (Ben Komets) tutorials which is still one of the best hi end painting tutorials on youtube.

Duncan's videos, both at WHTV and his new Academy are to make painting more approachable for individuals who are intimidated by it. They're not targeting well experienced painters. Additionally, they're a kind of do-along (paint-along) style video where you can follow his steps and color pallet along with him to achieve a similar result.

If you're trying to learn advanced techniques or want to take Roy completely off the grid and do your own thing entirely than these videos aren't for you.

Personally, I like them to see how another person approaches the model; which brushes they choose and how they perform for the selected task and also to see what the results of their color pallet yield.

Not every video needs to be groundbreaking and revolutionary or increase your own skill.

Paying is not an option for me though, not even for state of the art painting tutorials that make you like a Picasso.

Specially when you have so much for free already available. The Warhammer channel for example delivers the exact same thing free of charge so I don't see how this would work out.

Advanced tutorials are more my cup of tea since I like to learn new things but that's me. When I started internet was not a thing so yeah I can se my young son now getting onboard with these easier tutorials.

I see Duncan like those personal trainers motivating you all the way, and that's a good thing for some.

Also don't forget if he paints a Sister of Battle with black leather you can watch that video and take the black leather parts to your Daughters of Khaine quite easily. So there are options to go "off scheme" with your own unique take.


Remember a lot of beginners don't quite get the whole on how to build up just "any" colour of their choosing. They are more likely to pick specific tutorials and colours (just like the GW painting app presents) and paint their model using those recipies.

 Modock wrote:


Without a doubt the number one tip should be how to make a wet palette. I can not take a painter seriously when he's not using a wet palette.
Every good painter at least those who make tutorials use one.
You will improve enormously by using one.

There are so many brilliant painters with amazing and quality tutorials on the youtube for people to learn, with every kind of techiques possible.

I thought the corporate GW held Duncan down, shoving GW painting style down peoples throats but looking at the video it's exactly same just with a different editing.
FFS still no wet palette.

I own a wet palette, but I very rarely use it. It just feels like a matter of personal taste. Does that mean I’m not a good painter? I like to flatter myself that I’m a bit better than average. I mean I keep hearing people say that you can only paint properly with a wet palette, but I’ve yet to see any evidence that it’s true. It just suits certain techniques more perhaps, but not everyone likes those techniques. Just I’ve survived thus far without ever trying two brush techniques.

I only use a wet pallete when im painting a miniature with very little paint.
if im batch painting, i use an egg carton pallete.

I own a wet palette, but I very rarely use it. It just feels like a matter of personal taste. Does that mean I’m not a good painter? I like to flatter myself that I’m a bit better than average. I mean I keep hearing people say that you can only paint properly with a wet palette, but I’ve yet to see any evidence that it’s true. It just suits certain techniques more perhaps, but not everyone likes those techniques. Just I’ve survived thus far without ever trying two brush techniques.

No, not using a wet palette doesn't make you a bad painter, my statement was more intended for those who do tutorials on a single mini. Without the palette some
techniques are really hard to pull off. I can use the same paint for a week on a wet palette.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
But why not just start with those techniques to get a jump start and skip all of it? Why not start with glazing, learning volume and color theory and wetblending and tones and variation.

This is the worst thing to do to someone who is new to the hobby. Someone new to painting models or someone who has never painted in general before are going to be overwhelmed and give up if you suddenly start talking about wet blending and mixing colours if they don't even know how to layer in the first place.

Then why not a video on layering and how to apply layeri across revert surfaces.

First newsletter has been sent and they've hinted at the next tutorial, coming next week: A Star Wars storm trooper.

I'm actually quite interested to see how he does that one. There are already a fair few beginner level painting videos for Star Wars stuff as a result of Legion & Imperial Assault, but I'm always looking for better time/effort to results ratios.

I think some people are missing the point, it's an academy I.e a school , in any subject you start with basics and work your way up through the subject till you become more competent.
Duncan taught me how to get reasonable looking models onto a table top. Now I paint without the need for tutorials as have learnt from them and applied techniques learnt from them.
I actually don't understand why there is such a heated debate , if his videos don't appeal , don't watch or subscribe, go somewhere else.

Marxist artist wrote:
I think some people are missing the point, it's an academy I.e a school , in any subject you start with basics and work your way up through the subject till you become more competent.
Duncan taught me how to get reasonable looking models onto a table top. Now I paint without the need for tutorials as have learnt from them and applied techniques learnt from them.
I actually don't understand why there is such a heated debate , if his videos don't appeal , don't watch or subscribe, go somewhere else.

Gatekeeping. Snobbish-ness.

Why learn 'Smoke on the Water' on guitar? Why not learn about chord progression, counterpoint, harmonics and other musical theory and write your own music? Don't just play other people's stuff! I can't take you seriously unless you've got you're own recording studio!

Alternatively, the argument isn't heated in the slightest, disagreement is normal, expression of preferences is absolutely acceptable, and people saying "It's kinda outrageous that everyone isn't cheering this" are absurd.

I think one of the other things to bear in mind is that Duncan and Roger's videos actually take a lot of preparation.

It's not just a case of sitting at the desk and filming.

Everything is planned and scripted well in advance, from the script, to the camera angles as well as the paints and methods.

I'm not talking about Hollywood style story boarding kinda level, but these long format videos do take a while to get ready and is probably why it's taken GW a while to bring them back.

I suspect that Sisters of Battle video was one that Duncan and Roger had already scripted before they left WHTV and took it with them.

That's why the only non-GW products used were the brushes as these could be changed once filming started but the paints had already been planned.

I suspect later videos will use more non-GW products, which allows Duncan to show new techniques.

I also think if my theory is correct then GW pretty much set their own standard of "Battle Ready" and "Parade Ready" and they prefer not to have 'Eavy Metal style tips and ticks for their viewers. Once Duncan starts writing scripts for his own channel this may change.

And just to add, I have been painting for over 30 years but I often learned new things in Duncan's videos.

And already stated, we're not getting any younger and I would rather learn techniques to get my minis painted to a good standard but more quickly.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Then why not a video on layering and how to apply layeri across revert surfaces.

Because it would be a dumb move from a business view. Duncan (or WarhammerTV) already had a large following of people interested exactly in this kind of video. And the only sensible thing when you break with your employer to start something yourself is to take as many clients as possible with you.

He also improved a bit from the old videos by naming alternatives to some paints and brushes used.

I mean this is more about my personal opinions on those types of videos and why they are harmful to the hobby.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
I mean this is more about my personal opinions on those types of videos and why they are harmful to the hobby.

"Harmful to the hobby"

You need a very very large dose of perspective my man.