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 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.

I mean, everything GW makes in plastic is marked up like 2000% from it's actual value anyway so...

In the same way that a movie or videogame DVD is marked up thousands of times what it costs to produce a DVD. 'Actual value' isn't a thing when you're talking about a product with significant up-front investment and comparatively far lower production costs.

chaos45 wrote:
the problem is they need to just update it to the newest rules set.....all it would take is to update the Armory books like they published 3 or so years ago to 9th Edition.

People can still have the huge black fluff books but at least people could play the same set of rules most the other GW players are using....making them fully compatible would be even better.

Also would say having fully compatible rules for all the 30k resin stuff would probably increase sales as well...as I cant imagine the sales are great on the stuff that is still only stuck with 30k rules from 2 editions ago now.

No thanks. The last thing I'm interested in for 30k is a 3-year churn cycle of new editions and book releases that are going to be outdated in less than two years' time. I like the current ruleset, and while it does have it's issues, you better believe that I'm glad that the army books and rulebook I bought four years ago are still current and usable. I absolutely can't say the same for my big 8th ed BRB, and I'm annoyed that GW keeps doing constant codex and points updates via new books. There's a good reason, pandemic aside, that I haven't purchased a single thing for 9e yet.

What Horus Heresy really needs is a dedicated design team of more than 2 people that's willing to push the game hard, communicate with players, and drum up interest in the game. I want 30k to see the same kinds of content that Necromunda has right now - frequent articles on the Warhammer Community site, a good cycle of miniature releases, and so on. Additionally, an affordable starter set of some kind. And like I've mentioned before, I've emailed FW with all of these concerns and issues and suggest that others do the same.

 Arbitrator wrote:

 Eiríkr wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:

Except those books are then entirely useless for the purpose people paid for.

By that same logic, we can remove a few armies from 40k entirely but it’s fine, you still have the models.

I still play 6th Edition WFB, despite GW not supporting it.
Believe it or not, but books and models won't suddenly disappear from your shelf just because GW have decided to move on..

People like to say this a lot, but it really, really depends on your local community. The majority of people are only interested in following the Party Line and once a ruleset is no longer officially supported, drop it like a bad habit. It's all well and good you wanting to use them, but if none else is willing to accommodate that's a fat load of good, plus the odds of getting new blood in are slim to zero.

Fair.
I am fortuante enough to live in Nottingham, the centre of the lead-belt and about ten minutes walk from Warhammer World.

Right. This is why HH is doomed to stay as a neglected fringe product. The dozen or so diehards that still play the game wouldn't tolerate the update to modern rules, and the lack of the same stops the game from gaining more widespread popularity.

 Crimson wrote:
Right. This is why HH is doomed to stay as a neglected fringe product. The dozen or so diehards that still play the game wouldn't tolerate the update to modern rules, and the lack of the same stops the game from gaining more widespread popularity.

Many people play heresy specifically because they prefer the 7th ed system. I enjoy heresy for the models and fluff but I also prefer the way game plays, 9th feels too disconnected and very obvious youre playing a game. The mechanics might be easier for new players (although with the slew of FAQs, updates, advanced rules, supplements etc I dont think 9th is any easier) but once you learn heresy it plays much faster and is more engaging.

The real thing heresy is struggling with is advertising and ease of access. No starter set and incredibly expensive models and books make it scary for someone starting from scratch.

So...Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero were both box sets in the right direction...but instead of making them 7th Edition/HH rules they became their own simple game.

I have a friend who went nuts with Calth and is big into the Word Bearers, but has no experience with 7th, 8th or 9th...he likes the models and wants to not buy the wrong rules.

If FW could just repackage BaC or BoP with the 7th Ed Starter Rules (or a new quick-guide to HH) I think it would go a long way towards sustaining the HH brand as a miniatures game.

And yes, I have tried to explain the differences to him, but he wants "official" rules outside of the Calth boardgame...

 catbarf wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.

I mean, everything GW makes in plastic is marked up like 2000% from it's actual value anyway so...

In the same way that a movie or videogame DVD is marked up thousands of times what it costs to produce a DVD. 'Actual value' isn't a thing when you're talking about a product with significant up-front investment and comparatively far lower production costs.

Except that's in no-way comparable, since a DVD is just a device for the real product stored inside.

Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily.
That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH

 Sacredroach wrote:
So...Betrayal at Calth and Burning of Prospero were both box sets in the right direction...but instead of making them 7th Edition/HH rules they became their own simple game.

I have a friend who went nuts with Calth and is big into the Word Bearers, but has no experience with 7th, 8th or 9th...he likes the models and wants to not buy the wrong rules.

If FW could just repackage BaC or BoP with the 7th Ed Starter Rules (or a new quick-guide to HH) I think it would go a long way towards sustaining the HH brand as a miniatures game.

And yes, I have tried to explain the differences to him, but he wants "official" rules outside of the Calth boardgame...

There are real rules...

77$ flonly available from a website with ludicrous free shipping requirements. Now if I want to play white scars, tell me, what books do I need?

 Crimson wrote:
Right. This is why HH is doomed to stay as a neglected fringe product. The dozen or so diehards that still play the game wouldn't tolerate the update to modern rules, and the lack of the same stops the game from gaining more widespread popularity.

Nice exaggeration on that.
But no.
Most don’t want dumbed down rules.

30k has its issues but it works as a game.
Look at the absolute gak state of 40k.
Why would anyone want that?

And by “wouldn’t tolerate modern rules” you mean, doesn’t want to play a complete disaster of an edition?

The game is slow, but has pretty much no designers working on it and being almost completely made by FW kind of pushes that.
Naturally it won’t have a huge fan base.

My biggest issues is the relentless 40k kiddies that cry because every 30k unit isn’t in 40k.

HH could work without a problem with their actual rules. Just like fantasy rules had no substantial problem that was unsolvable.

GW just chose to not fix it. The same will happen to HH.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 CragHack wrote:
Problem is, plastic is only profitable/affordable if they make a large amount. Should they make less, these could have the same price as resin. And they can’t make more, because Heresy is not that popular, obviously. Just because they have been neglecting it/operating as an amateur garage casting company, w/o any communication.

I mean, everything GW makes in plastic is marked up like 2000% from it's actual value anyway so...

In the same way that a movie or videogame DVD is marked up thousands of times what it costs to produce a DVD. 'Actual value' isn't a thing when you're talking about a product with significant up-front investment and comparatively far lower production costs.

Except that's in no-way comparable, since a DVD is just a device for the real product stored inside.

DVDs are a medium for movies as is plastic/resin/etc for models...
You are basically arguing for people to only buy green stuff and make all their models themselves as the design holds no value.

 Crimson wrote:
Right. This is why HH is doomed to stay as a neglected fringe product. The dozen or so diehards that still play the game wouldn't tolerate the update to modern rules, and the lack of the same stops the game from gaining more widespread popularity.

Pretty much this, nobody locally wants to start HH to go back to 7th. Another plastic starter box would do wonders.

Yeah, rules are a mess, armies are resin.
Just make it so you can have your Legion rules and army easily.
200+ dollars in books to start an already expensive game is stupid.
It also hurts the health of the game. If it's hard for people to get into, it will die.
9th ed rules, Armor Mks Combat patrol, easy legion rules to get will make it much more palatable.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, rules are a mess, armies are resin.
Just make it so you can have your Legion rules and army easily.
200+ dollars in books to start an already expensive game is stupid.
It also hurts the health of the game. If it's hard for people to get into, it will die.
9th ed rules, Armor Mks Combat patrol, easy legion rules to get will make it much more palatable.

How is this any different from 8e/9e where you need $100 worth of rulebook and codex, and who knows how many extra supplements to stay current on the points values and newest hotness in stratagems and tactics? Oh and then you get to replace those books in three years when the next edition comes out. I bought the 2019 Chapter Approved in November of said year and got to play a single game of 8e with those points values before the pandemic hit and then 9th ed came out... and immediately made my $40 purchase a useless pile of paper.

"Armies are resin" ...um, sure, except where the bulk of your infantry can be plastic thanks to the plastic tactical squads. Not to mention the number of current plastic kits that are perfectly fine for 30k as well - the Land Raider, Rhino, Predator, Land Speeder, Cataphractii and Tartaros terminators, the Contemptor.

I think for every person screaming about wanting Horus Heresy to go to 9e rules, there are more that like the stable ruleset and prefer it for the game setting over the current rules mess(and yes, I'm one of those). If the FW writers can't manage to even put out an Index that isn't riddled with problems and inconsistencies for all the current FW minis to be used in 9e, what makes you think they can manage to do rules for 18 space marine legions, Solar Auxilia, and Mechanicum?

Thing is, since HH is only one person and the rules are only supported by themselves, how is that better than having a team with a unified way of thinking working together? Kinda like how it was before 8th.

I get not wanting 40k levels of FOTM, but the game is effectively dead locally. Which for me is irritating since I was just beginning to build my 30k Salamanders & looking to add some Mechanicum Knights. Sad part is it was played often @ FLGS prior to Alan's passing.
Not looking for it to go to 9th, but overall improvements and some streamlining wouldn't hurt.

 Mr. Grey wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Yeah, rules are a mess, armies are resin.
Just make it so you can have your Legion rules and army easily.
200+ dollars in books to start an already expensive game is stupid.
It also hurts the health of the game. If it's hard for people to get into, it will die.
9th ed rules, Armor Mks Combat patrol, easy legion rules to get will make it much more palatable.

How is this any different from 8e/9e where you need $100 worth of rulebook and codex, and who knows how many extra supplements to stay current on the points values and newest hotness in stratagems and tactics? Oh and then you get to replace those books in three years when the next edition comes out. I bought the 2019 Chapter Approved in November of said year and got to play a single game of 8e with those points values before the pandemic hit and then 9th ed came out... and immediately made my $40 purchase a useless pile of paper.

If i buy a combat patrol, or recent kits, all the rules are in the set.
So you dont need to.
Not to mention Rulebooks being in starter sets, codexes being less then or about 50$.
If, for 40k, I wanted to play Thousand Sons, i would just need to buy the codex(Obviously models and such, but you get my point) 50$
if for 30k i would need to buy, Rules, 62$, Inferno 124$, the Army of Darkness book. 50$ 200+ for books.
Now imagine this. 30k uses 40k rules. Ok, 62$ gone. They stop tying the rules to massive leather bound books, if I want to plat TS, maybe a thousand son rules to buy(Like 20$, get all the legion rules for you legion, 20$ for every legion. and then a book or ebook of all the rules.
Then imagine, Combat Patrol, Mk3 Combat PAtrol mk4. Boom easy entry.
Making the Barrier to entry is much easier.
Once people have their foot in the door easily, they will then buy the expensive resin.
There is no reason they cannot tweak 9th to their benifit( We dont use these strategems, we use these ones, armies are built using X detachment instead.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily.
That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH

Yes, absolutely. But every time when it suggested that the rules would be updated to be compatible with 40K again, many of the remaining HH players will have a fit. (As we can see in this thread.)

 Crimson wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily.
That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH

Yes, absolutely. But every time when it suggested that the rules would be updated to be compatible with 40K again, many of the remaining HH players will have a fit. (As we can see in this thread.)

I don’t know how much correlation and causation line up on that one. Yes, heresy was at its peak at that time, and yes the rules were the same as the 40k edition at the time. But I’m not sure I agree that’s why HH was at its peak, or why it isn’t now. Support hasn’t been great for the game for a while, FW resins are more expensive than ever, they didn’t keep up the plastic momentum, books take years to come out etc... I think these are more the reason than the specific rules set used. The whole heresy scene was pretty big then, it wasn’t just heresy armies being used in 40k.

 Crimson wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily.
That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH

Yes, absolutely. But every time when it suggested that the rules would be updated to be compatible with 40K again, many of the remaining HH players will have a fit. (As we can see in this thread.)

One suspects that’s less to do with the actual rules sets in questions, and more the hefty price of gathering the FW rules, scattered as they are across multiple (quite expensive) volumes.

 Crimson wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Horus Heresy hayday was when calth and prospero was out and you could play vs 40k armies easily.
That needs to come back so the Horus Heresy guys can easily play vs people who don't play.l HH

Yes, absolutely. But every time when it suggested that the rules would be updated to be compatible with 40K again, many of the remaining HH players will have a fit. (As we can see in this thread.)

For many, they now see HH as a separate game rather than an expansion or mod for 40k so don't see the need to change.




Contekar are up - £63

The kit comes with three heavy flamers, two volkite cavitors and five Nostraman chainblades. There is an option to make one member into a squad leader, known as a Dissident, and he can also be armed with a escaton power claw instead of his Nostraman chainblade. There are six heads included – five helmeted and one bare – giving you some flexibility with how you assemble your squad.

Just seen that.
Wasn’t far off with my guess.
So the only actual option is a claw for the leader.
Not enough of either ranged weapon for the entire unit.

Just bugs me as it’s not something they’d have to make extra sculpts for either.
Just throw in a few duplicate arms and everyone has weapon options.

 Mr. Grey wrote:
If the FW writers can't manage to even put out an Index that isn't riddled with problems and inconsistencies for all the current FW minis to be used in 9e, what makes you think they can manage to do rules for 18 space marine legions, Solar Auxilia, and Mechanicum?

Minor point, dude - if you mean the most recent FW Index, that was written by the GW 40k rules team, not the FW staff.

I think hotsauceman has made maybe one good point so far - that a Start Collecting/Combat Patrol box (or two) using the various HH plastics would be a solid idea.

Jackal90 wrote:
Not enough of either ranged weapon for the entire unit.

And with only 2 volkite you can't even buy two squads and have them all armed the same.

beast_gts wrote:

Jackal90 wrote:
Not enough of either ranged weapon for the entire unit.

And with only 2 volkite you can't even buy two squads and have them all armed the same.

Thanks Forgeworld

It’s getting to the stage that you know how bad rules will be.
We are getting some amazing looking models but the rules are painful.

Where’s the DA style love gone?
They were getting some good stuff for a while.

I am someone who actually plays 30k and is not interested in current 40k. You might wonder why someone like me wouldnt like to go 9th edition if you are not a 30k player yourself. After all you are limiting yourself and the amount of players youre able to play with. Let me explain from my point of view.

At this point of time 40k is changing drastically too fast. Back in time you got a new edition every 4 or so years. Codex every 4-5 years and some like DE could wait even longer (not that i was happy about it). Nowadays armies like SM got 3 codexes over the last 4 years (2017, 2019, 2020). Thats like wow... GW even changed the stats of weapons and SM statistics. I just dont see the same to be updated constantly to HH. Its just too much, too fast.

To the cost of the rules - to play HH you basically need Rulebook, Legion Book and Army List. Perhaps a big black book if you choose a legion with newest rules.. But you have to pay once and you know these are the rules youre going to stick with for years. If you so choose to play for example Orbital Assault oriented army (full of drop pods) you are quite sure this army is going to be viable for years to come. I remember the time of change from 4th to 5th edition when suddenly my IG from lots of infantry with several tanks had to become full mechanised to catch up.

But it doesnt mean i wouldnt like HH to have an updated Rulebook. I would like the rules revision, updating costs, etc. Even something like alternate activation stuff maybe. However i dont want it to become simply 9th edition. I just dont see HH to be updated constantly to catch up to the newest incarnation of SM codex. HH at this point of time should have its own, stable rules. Slow and steady.

Currently what HH need the most is a good starter set. Something like Betrayal at Calth.

#bringbackcalth

Glumy wrote:
I am someone who actually plays 30k and is not interested in current 40k. You might wonder why someone like me wouldnt like to go 9th edition if you are not a 30k player yourself. After all you are limiting yourself and the amount of players youre able to play with. Let me explain from my point of view.

At this point of time 40k is changing drastically too fast. Back in time you got a new edition every 4 or so years. Codex every 4-5 years and some like DE could wait even longer (not that i was happy about it). Nowadays armies like SM got 3 codexes over the last 4 years (2017, 2019, 2020). Thats like wow... GW even changed the stats of weapons and SM statistics. I just dont see the same to be updated constantly to HH. Its just too much, too fast.

You understand that the books weren't just for the sake of "changing things", yeah? That they were adding pretty hefty chunks of new units into things--and paving the way for the new supplement system?

To the cost of the rules - to play HH you basically need Rulebook, Legion Book and Army List. Perhaps a big black book if you choose a legion with newest rules.. But you have to pay once and you know these are the rules youre going to stick with for years. If you so choose to play for example Orbital Assault oriented army (full of drop pods) you are quite sure this army is going to be viable for years to come. I remember the time of change from 4th to 5th edition when suddenly my IG from lots of infantry with several tanks had to become full mechanised to catch up.

These two things are not related. The IG example is you choosing to be a metachaser while the first is 'essential play' items.

And it completely ignores that if you want to play any army that is in resin, you're going to have a rough go of it.

But it doesnt mean i wouldnt like HH to have an updated Rulebook. I would like the rules revision, updating costs, etc. Even something like alternate activation stuff maybe. However i dont want it to become simply 9th edition. I just dont see HH to be updated constantly to catch up to the newest incarnation of SM codex. HH at this point of time should have its own, stable rules. Slow and steady.

Currently what HH need the most is a good starter set. Something like Betrayal at Calth.

#bringbackcalth

What Horus Heresy needs to be an actual game is not "a good starter set". You could set people up with a Combat Patrol in plastic if they wanted to play Marines.

It needs to have something that actually differentiates it, meaningfully, from 40k. The Primarchs alone are not enough.
It needs to have a meaningful range of models available in plastic. That Solar Auxilia were not plastic was a huge missed opportunity.
List could go on and on.

Additionally? There's very much an unwelcoming and unhelpful segment of that community. Your own post is a fairly good example, behaving as though 30k is super special and cherrypicking things to showcase why 40k bad but 30k good.

 Kanluwen wrote:

You understand that the books weren't just for the sake of "changing things", yeah? That they were adding pretty hefty chunks of new units into things--and paving the way for the new supplement system?

I am very happy it works for you. I am not a fan of too many changes too fast especially when you dont even have time to apprieciate the "new" codex in 1 year time.

And it completely ignores that if you want to play any army that is in resin, you're going to have a rough go of it.

I am quite open for a change from resin to plastic. However if you think change of ruleset will help in this... Well im not so optimistic.

What Horus Heresy needs to be an actual game is not "a good starter set". You could set people up with a Combat Patrol in plastic if they wanted to play Marines.

It needs to have something that actually differentiates it, meaningfully, from 40k. The Primarchs alone are not enough.
It needs to have a meaningful range of models available in plastic. That Solar Auxilia were not plastic was a huge missed opportunity.
List could go on and on.

I presume you dont play 30k. I dont even know if youre talking to people who actually play the game. I am one. I tell you we need a good starter set. Please dont force on us something we dont actually want.
Edit: I didnt make myself clear. I am sceptical this stuff will get to be in plastic. I am open to this but i just do not believe it. For it to happen we first need a good starter set so GW will see this stuff sells.

Additionally? There's very much an unwelcoming and unhelpful segment of that community. Your own post is a fairly good example, behaving as though 30k is super special and cherrypicking things to showcase why 40k bad but 30k good.

I dont know why are you saying my post was 'unwelcoming'. This is an illusion. I am not forcing anything on 40k so please dont force anything on 30k the actual players wouldnt apprieciate.