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https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/15/the-road-goes-ever-on-and-on-the-next-edition-of-middle-earth-strategy-battle-game/

so just enough changes to invalidate the rulebooks and armies books but not enough to really change the game?

hand weapons back to 1st edition in effect with the special strike stuff gone, could easily have been restricted to heros only but whatever

adding the Intelligence stat makes sense, one wonders if in time a "willpower" stat and maybe something related to "leadership" could go against it..

spreading the range of fight values is a good thing and if they are mucking about with profiles is something long overdue

never saw what was complicated with the "in the way" test, indeed its the most sensible cover mechanic in any GW game, dumbing it down so it can be "improved" again next time with different results?

overall reasonably positive, though its invalidating a hell of a lot of books, and oh look they are bringing the "Legends" concept for stuff they don't currently make models of

oh joy

I don't think in the way is complicated, more the fact that virtually no one ever used it. which is perfectly fair to be honest.

So uhh... what are we thinking ends up on that legends list?

I could see some oc's going there, Golden king, few named characters etc. To be frank, it sounds like a finecast exclusive clear out.

OK, mostly good then. So long special strikes, I will not miss you. LL becoming this standard way to build armies is harder to gauge, will need to wait and see how it's implemented.

Glad they are being up front about Angmar not being made for the new edition so people can make an informed purchase.

Not a big fan of all the "non-film" stuff being shunted into their own book. Makes me worried about the Legends removals and how big that's going to be. Is it everything without a model for sale? How does that work with MESBGs rotating range?

Hand weapon change is good. In the Way I don't really care about too much.
Leaning into legendary legions, Fight Value creep and more fiddly special rules for models are all quite unappealling to me.

Does 'modern' design mean cluttered with layers of exception based rules?

Also notable they've increased the number of books needed to play the game - up to 4 books from the Blue Book era when you could happily play with the mini-rulebook.

I also won't be surprised if finecast models end up being the main targets for being 'legended'. It is a failed technology, clearly. Amazing they kept it up for so long, though it has always had it's apologists.

Also ambivalent about new releases being focused on the new animated feature.

I see little to convince me to buy anything here, and will probably continue to use older books.
Edit: kudos to them for being honest about the Angmar supplement, though it is crazy they are announcing it at the same time and it will be valid for so little time!

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I don't think in the way is complicated, more the fact that virtually no one ever used it. which is perfectly fair to be honest.

pretty much every single game here, heros behind a screen of plebs, or moving up behind walls etc to dilute archery. most of the time it is a 4+ (which it still will be), didn't see what was complicated about seriously solid stuff being a 3+ and softer stuff a 5+. indeed seemed one of the easier bits to remember

the idea that all lists are now legendary legions, all get some "special rule" just for turning up seems to be going the way of what made 40k a few editions ago into a gork awful mess with the daft "formations", will have to see how it works out - if they actually do it properly so the same model can have different costs in different lists specifically because of the "free" rules then it could work nicely. I half suspect it will be a bit more lazy but will wait and see

also to be honest the idea that currently you can decide to run a pretty basic force, no named heroes just a few captains and some basic bods appeals, hopefully this is still easy to do

chaos0xomega wrote:
So uhh... what are we thinking ends up on that legends list?

Cynic in me suspects anything they’ve not made a great effort to stock or lines which haven’t received attention in a long time- Khand, Far Harad come to mind immediately.

Legendary legions were cool as more limited versions of the general army lista that were straight out weaker but allowed you more freedom. Them being the default its not good.


Sad to see MESBG follow the aos and 40k trend. This Game Will stop being middle earth strategy Battle Game to become Tm approbed products from the movies fighting each other.

 Da Boss wrote:
Hand weapon change is good. In the Way I don't really care about too much.
Leaning into legendary legions, Fight Value creep and more fiddly special rules for models are all quite unappealling to me.

Does 'modern' design mean cluttered with layers of exception based rules?

Also notable they've increased the number of books needed to play the game - up to 4 books from the Blue Book era when you could happily play with the mini-rulebook.

I also won't be surprised if finecast models end up being the main targets for being 'legended'. It is a failed technology, clearly. Amazing they kept it up for so long, though it has always had it's apologists.

Also ambivalent about new releases being focused on the new animated feature.

I see little to convince me to buy anything here, and will probably continue to use older books.
Edit: kudos to them for being honest about the Angmar supplement, though it is crazy they are announcing it at the same time and it will be valid for so little time!

The fight value adjustment is severely needed. There is no reason why a character like Azog should be going toe to toe with Aragorn and Boromir.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
Legendary legions were cool as more limited versions of the general army lista that were straight out weaker but allowed you more freedom. Them being the default its not good.


Sad to see MESBG follow the aos and 40k trend. This Game Will stop being middle earth strategy Battle Game to become Tm approbed products from the movies fighting each other.

I always enjoy "sky is falling" posts.

zombie_sky_diver wrote:I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking elite, non-movie units.

Anything is possible but I highly doubt those more elite units will get plastics. I would bet redone FW models before plastics are more likely, like they did with the Dol Amroth Knights.

We have had years of hardly any release so I'm happy to hear what they do with the game and will be haply with whatever they release.

It would be nice to see them redo any and all Finecast models first and foremost.

Oh for sure. I know it's a pipe dream, but I really am one of the people who'd rather have more plastic troops and don't care about characters that much. Still, there are film things like Iron Hills and the other Last Alliance loadouts that could work, even before we get to the non-movie or rarer stuff. Regardless, I'm pretty keen on this particular update and I'll continue to keep an eye on new releases for it. I've a friend who will be happy to get it back on the table, at least.

Re: the article today, some interesting takeaways. It seems quite clear that whatever logistical challenges they've had clearly affect MESBG as much as anything else; I'm certain the plan wasn't for Angmar to come SO close to the new edition that they'd have to apologise up front for it.

Losing the special strikes seems like a good move to me - I don't really think the game is so granular as to warrant distinguishing between generic hand weapons on many models. In the way I could take or leave; it's just abstracting a thing - particularly vulnerable or beloved characters could have some defensive penalty or bonus instead.

I'm not sure where I'll land about the army list thing - it was already a negative to me that there's such an overwhelming focus on special characters and moments and turning all lists into legendary legions risks exacerbating that, but as long as there's some options to not take major named characters that'll be fine for me - or my friend and I will just decide when we want to play a nameless scrimmage and only take captains and low level characters for those. But it does seem like gamers and pop culture at large in the moment are in a Main Character phase for now, so it's probably the appropriate decision.

The fight adjustment could go well or poorly - if it just creeps upwards then it's a missed opportunity, but if an actual wider spread if accompanied by better accounting for those differentials so armies and models play differently, that could be a good thing.

The legends thing seems like it would be less of a problem here? At least in my experience the folks I see playing MESBG tend to be less invested in meeting tournament standards to begin with, though of course for collectors hoping for this or that model to come back MTO this might mean some models never returning. On the other hand, MAYBE it's an opportunity for more people to creatively interpret their vision of Middle Earth, or follow along with someone else's vision. If GW no longer sells Khand, say, there's any number of ways to interpret Khand from the books, whether you want to go for GW's pseudo-mongol look or read Variag + Wainrider as some sort of Baltic Pagan or Gallic vibes, so there are tons of model options.

 Galas wrote:
Legendary legions were cool as more limited versions of the general army lista that were straight out weaker but allowed you more freedom. Them being the default its not good.


Sad to see MESBG follow the aos and 40k trend. This Game Will stop being middle earth strategy Battle Game to become Tm approbed products from the movies fighting each other.

Oh my god... you should consider keep playing current version or start another system. It is possible, you can. I stopped playing WHFB, never touched ToW, and now I am playing KoW and I am very happy with it.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/15/the-road-goes-ever-on-and-on-the-next-edition-of-middle-earth-strategy-battle-game/

A day may come when I feel the need to change editions from the Big Blue Book...but it is not this day.

Inquisitor Gideon: My preferred solution to the Fight value issue would be to reduce certain characters who got too much rather than bump everyone else. But people prefer increases to reductions even if it all evens out in the end. I mostly ignore the Hobbit stuff in my Middle Earth games anyway. I suppose if they do a good job with it they might improve the game, even with increases. But I don't have a lot of faith in the design team.

...months after the new edition has caused quite a stir...

"Dark have been our games of late..."

"Your gaming group would remember their old strength better if they read their big blue book."

New riders of the dead in plain sight?

I've had too few games with my current books so I'll probably sit this one out, but the design Team of that game has shown repeatedly that they're willing to put much more effort into the game than the 40K or AoS teams so I'm optimistic things will shake out in a good way.
I should take the chance to get some of the current books while I still can, especially the way of the ringbearer was always intriguing, it just lacks a translation.

 Elevenses wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
So uhh... what are we thinking ends up on that legends list?

Cynic in me suspects anything they’ve not made a great effort to stock or lines which haven’t received attention in a long time- Khand, Far Harad come to mind immediately.

But that basically describes most of the potential contents of "Armies of Middle Earth" at that point? To the point until they explicitly mentioned the legends/legacy stuff I expected that book to get the legends label.

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
New riders of the dead in plain sight?

I suspect not, as there were only two rider sculpts and they've only used two there. And if they are new, then they've been waiting in the wings for a long time as that pic has been used on warcom articles a few times in the past and clearly predates the plastic King of the Dead, as they use the metal version there.

The main thing I'm hoping for is that most of the book stuff (Khand, Warriors of Druadan, Scouring of the Shire, etc.) goes into the third book and not into the "legends" document.

Certainly won't be mourning the loss of special strikes, one of the worst additions to the game during the Hobbit era from both thematic, gameplay, balance and various other perspectives. But things like their removal and overhauling every profile in the game while including a new stat on the profile for the first time since the game's start (probably?) is quite a bit of a bigger change than I had anticipated. Introducing a legends/legacy concept feels the most problematic however. I would be surprised if those will continue receiving updates in the long run, which rarely bodes well.

Longstrider wrote:

Spoiler:

zombie_sky_diver wrote:I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking elite, non-movie units.

Anything is possible but I highly doubt those more elite units will get plastics. I would bet redone FW models before plastics are more likely, like they did with the Dol Amroth Knights.

We have had years of hardly any release so I'm happy to hear what they do with the game and will be haply with whatever they release.

It would be nice to see them redo any and all Finecast models first and foremost.

Oh for sure. I know it's a pipe dream, but I really am one of the people who'd rather have more plastic troops and don't care about characters that much.

Spoiler:

Still, there are film things like Iron Hills and the other Last Alliance loadouts that could work, even before we get to the non-movie or rarer stuff. Regardless, I'm pretty keen on this particular update and I'll continue to keep an eye on new releases for it. I've a friend who will be happy to get it back on the table, at least.

I'm not sure where I'll land about the army list thing - it was already a negative to me that there's such an overwhelming focus on special characters and moments and turning all lists into legendary legions risks exacerbating that, but as long as there's some options to not take major named characters that'll be fine for me - or my friend and I will just decide when we want to play a nameless scrimmage and only take captains and low level characters for those. But it does seem like gamers and pop culture at large in the moment are in a Main Character phase for now, so it's probably the appropriate decision.

While I'm happy to see Finecast sail off into the West, I would be perfectly fine to just have the minis that had metal variants return in metal, release FW resin for the other characters, and focus on troops for plastics. I only need one Gandalf the White, and actually 99% of the time don't need any Gandalf the White, while I would love to have, say, a few dozen Men-at-Arms of Dol Amroth with pikes that do not bend like the metal or Finecast ones unavoidably did. Plastic troops feel far more useful than plastic characters, and I don't think that's just the feeling because that's how the game used to be.

In terms of game terms, I'm also very much with you, and have long hoped (but also long since given up hope) to for instance see more options for generic characters rather than more named characters. As soon as I expanded from LotR SBG (as it was known) to WHFB (6th ed), I liked how named historical characters were barely used (often cool models converted into generic lords riding dragons or somesuch), but generic ones had all the customization including optional special rules. Given the setting for Middle-earth, I would not want the option for generic Istari, or some rando Elven lord with powers rivalling Galadriel, but always thought it would be fun if instead of relying on named characters for special rules, you could, say, turn a Dwarf Captain into a Dwarf Ranger captain (reducing its armour, but gaining Mountain Dweller and the option for a Dwarf long bow), or give an Orc some poisoned attacks, or a weak Master of Battle rule, or just an extra point of Will (each probably limited to one upgrade/Captain and once per army or so). Anyway, instead every GW game I vaguely follow seems focussed on the reverse indeed, with bloody Primarchs and Lords of Terra wandering around in 40k and Helmawr's daughter in Necromunda. Sure, SBG started as a game to follow the Fellowship on its journey, but the point of playing points-match games instead of book/movie scenarios is to fight the battles we didn't see but could have happened - restrictive Legendary Legions and endless named characters make the world feel smaller, while promoting interesting generic heroes (even more so for factions where the books provide no named characters, like Harad, Moria, Easterlings, instead of making up new ones) feels more interesting to me too.

 Coenus Scaldingus wrote:
Certainly won't be mourning the loss of special strikes, one of the worst additions to the game during the Hobbit era from both thematic, gameplay, balance and various other perspectives. But things like their removal and overhauling every profile in the game while including a new stat on the profile for the first time since the game's start (probably?) is quite a bit of a bigger change than I had anticipated. Introducing a legends/legacy concept feels the most problematic however. I would be surprised if those will continue receiving updates in the long run, which rarely bodes well.

In terms of game terms, I'm also very much with you, and have long hoped (but also long since given up hope) to for instance see more options for generic characters rather than more named characters. As soon as I expanded from LotR SBG (as it was known) to WHFB (6th ed), I liked how named historical characters were barely used (often cool models converted into generic lords riding dragons or somesuch), but generic ones had all the customization including optional special rules. Given the setting for Middle-earth, I would not want the option for generic Istari, or some rando Elven lord with powers rivalling Galadriel, but always thought it would be fun if instead of relying on named characters for special rules, you could, say, turn a Dwarf Captain into a Dwarf Ranger captain (reducing its armour, but gaining Mountain Dweller and the option for a Dwarf long bow), or give an Orc some poisoned attacks, or a weak Master of Battle rule, or just an extra point of Will (each probably limited to one upgrade/Captain and once per army or so). Anyway, instead every GW game I vaguely follow seems focussed on the reverse indeed, with bloody Primarchs and Lords of Terra wandering around in 40k and Helmawr's daughter in Necromunda. Sure, SBG started as a game to follow the Fellowship on its journey, but the point of playing points-match games instead of book/movie scenarios is to fight the battles we didn't see but could have happened - restrictive Legendary Legions and endless named characters make the world feel smaller, while promoting interesting generic heroes (even more so for factions where the books provide no named characters, like Harad, Moria, Easterlings, instead of making up new ones) feels more interesting to me too.

Yeah, pretty much agreed all around. I'd LOVE the option to have a captain and then do some very low-level alterations to them - customising from a small list of options to just make them more in-line with being a nameless person but MY nameless person is right up my alley. One of the rather surprising things I've found myself enjoying in TOW is the ability to build my characters and unit champions, but it is ALSO a sign of just how much I've fallen into Inane Internet Meta that I can't stop myself from worrying about what "the best" is. Just something I need to retrain myself out of. But it's also clearly true that if there are options the temptation to metagame and optimise will arise.

But yeah, my main concern with the move to turning everything into these Movie (or book) Scene (TM) lists is that it's going to become more like Star Wars Legion or the like. It's one thing with MCP or Shatterpoint where the whole point is to have saturday morning cartoon fights, but when MESBG or SWL pitch themselves as wider in scope, and yet we just have Aragorn and Darth Vader leading around every gang of 30 dudes, it wears thin on me. Making the world smaller is a good way to put it, IMHO. But I also understand that this is very much Old Man Yells at Clouds at the moment, so I don't really expect that GW cater to my desires specifically. The basic ruleset is good though, and over the years there's been enough work put into it that using the rules with our own settings or characters remains pretty attainable, even if my friend and I have to hack together the occasional houseruled unit.

Pikes in plastic in general would be great. Galadhrim Guard (I never even bothered to open the awful finecast blister I got) are unlikely as an elite, but Dol Amroth Pike are just normal warriors, though it'd then be weird to have one of the Gondorian fiefdoms and not the others. But again to me it's a bit of a non-issue. If models like the Lossarnach and Lamedon troops go out of production but have legends profiles, it's much easier for those of us not roped into The Games Workshop Hobby (TM) to treat the Gondorian realms interpretively, whether as early Eastern Roman themes or as medieval western feudal vassals or what have you.

Special strikes could and probably should have been something that only heroes could do, no might points, just something only those the camera is following can do as it were.

personally I seldom used them, largely because I forgot, I was going to make cards but never got around to it

will see how it all ends up, its I think GWs best game, and the fact its changed so little shows its one they got right in the first place really, at a guess the marketing bods left it alone.

trouble is there are so many damned good games out there now, and so little time. I hope this remains perfectly possible to play at a low model count with reasonably generic heroes, the stuff going off just to the side of "that flash git who gets the glory"

And it's next week:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/18/sunday-preview-the-blood-angels-descend-and-war-comes-to-angmar/?fbclid=IwY2xjawEvCDVleHRuA2FlbQIxMQABHdAu9zUFDlPcoAE3Y2M_gykicAUUgCnHAUSxSiXWSHmnhRF-2nv4EhR8Fw_aem_e00F0wcgjdgqG4VDCxyigA

Unfortunately, no trolls yet. But a big amount of returning stuff along with the new.

I was not expecting Gûlavhar back, I am excited

I would be interested to see if he actually returns in metal.

Chit chat about Angmar:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2024/08/20/middle-earth-strategy-battle-game-designers-reveal-what-to-expect-from-the-rise-of-angmar/

I’m a bit disappointed that the Arnor cav are only coming in boxes of two. I’m assuming that means there are no other sculpts, so lots of models repeated if you wanted more than two horsies.

Am I wrong and I just missed something?

 Inquisitor Gideon wrote:
I would be interested to see if he actually returns in metal.

It does say all in metal, which is nice, I might get him/it.