Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There are very few problems with the game that can be fixed by changing the 8 pages of core rules.

I can think of a few things that need to be addressed.

1 - Terrain
2 - CP generation
3- rapid fire weapons just being better then most dedicated anti-tank weapons.

1 and 2 are easy. 3 would require the creation of some new weapon rules, likely adding a new type to it and some serious errata.

Here we go again...

I do wonder how long before GW runs out of material to print and rolls out a new edition. If PA books will peter out by June, that to me gives credence that a new/revised edition could be slotted into a summer release. Seems how that was how AoS to AoS 2.0 was handled.

I’m through with buying books though, I have a complete set of all the Codexes I’ll need for 8E, and I’m not interested in the rules bloat beyond Codexes. I’ve reached the age I’m over trying to keep up with an ever-changing system, and I just want the neat models anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There are very few problems with the game that can be fixed by changing the 8 pages of core rules.

I can think of a few things that need to be addressed.

1 - Terrain
2 - CP generation
3- rapid fire weapons just being better then most dedicated anti-tank weapons.

1 and 2 are easy. 3 would require the creation of some new weapon rules, likely adding a new type to it and some serious errata.

On #3, I wish the game would move to “One attack per model (or gun, for monsters and vehicles)”, rather than trying to model each individual shot. I think this may be how Apocalypse handles things? Seems like rapid fire should increase the chance of scoring a hit than making a bunch of seperate attack rolls. For things like MG’s, maybe make the able to do multiple single wounds to infantry targets, but can’t do more than 1 wound to a single target (one roll to hit, D6 wounds, Max 1 wound/model)?

BrianDavion wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There are very few problems with the game that can be fixed by changing the 8 pages of core rules.

I can think of a few things that need to be addressed.

1 - Terrain
2 - CP generation
3- rapid fire weapons just being better then most dedicated anti-tank weapons.

1 and 2 are easy. 3 would require the creation of some new weapon rules, likely adding a new type to it and some serious errata.

Actually, number 3 would just require rolling back the current to wound chart back to 7th ed, with a minor change that you always wound on sixes. It's actually something that's bothered me this entire edition, the whole doubling thing creates a lumpy distribution of ideal stats, like T5 is just soo much better than T4, but T6 and T7 are more expensive than T5 without being better for the vast majority of use cases. Same with Str, 5 is great, 6 and 7 are overpriced, and 8 is a bargain. So much of what is wrong with 40k could be laid at the feet of this one change.

The 'big summer thing' is probably Primaris Wave 3 (or whatever wave we're on).

 John Prins wrote:
The 'big summer thing' is probably Primaris Wave 3 (or whatever wave we're on).

that's not exactly at odds with a new edition though, each primaris wave was accompanies by a new box set featuring all new minis.

In fact we've been getting new Ork rumors so... gonna take a WILD guess here.. the SW vs Orks box set we've been hearing rumor of? Is actually gonna be a 9th edition boxed set. Space Wolves (with new gravis stuff!) vs Orks! with Orks beign the first new codex of 9th edition.

 Grimgold wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There are very few problems with the game that can be fixed by changing the 8 pages of core rules.

I can think of a few things that need to be addressed.

1 - Terrain
2 - CP generation
3- rapid fire weapons just being better then most dedicated anti-tank weapons.

1 and 2 are easy. 3 would require the creation of some new weapon rules, likely adding a new type to it and some serious errata.

Actually, number 3 would just require rolling back the current to wound chart back to 7th ed, with a minor change that you always wound on sixes. It's actually something that's bothered me this entire edition, the whole doubling thing creates a lumpy distribution of ideal stats, like T5 is just soo much better than T4, but T6 and T7 are more expensive than T5 without being better for the vast majority of use cases. Same with Str, 5 is great, 6 and 7 are overpriced, and 8 is a bargain. So much of what is wrong with 40k could be laid at the feet of this one change.

TBH that will happen with every wound chart you could make. Because different T's are more popular than others, some S will be more "worth it" than others.

BrianDavion wrote:
that's not exactly at odds with a new edition though, each primaris wave was accompanies by a new box set featuring all new minis.

In fact we've been getting new Ork rumors so... gonna take a WILD guess here.. the SW vs Orks box set we've been hearing rumor of? Is actually gonna be a 9th edition boxed set. Space Wolves (with new gravis stuff!) vs Orks! with Orks beign the first new codex of 9th edition.

What new gak do my Orkz get Brian? I want details here so we can cite you when they turn up on the rumour mill sites! Be very specific and sound confident!

 Yarium wrote:
#3 - There's supposedly a big release in the summer that the employees aren't allowed to take time off for.

Summer of Fliers!

It's finally happening!

I got a rumor, it's something big!
GW will pull a Microsoft!!!!

Remember how Windows went from Windows 8 to Windows 10? Warhammer 40k 10th edition incoming, you heard it here first!!!!

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that's not exactly at odds with a new edition though, each primaris wave was accompanies by a new box set featuring all new minis.

In fact we've been getting new Ork rumors so... gonna take a WILD guess here.. the SW vs Orks box set we've been hearing rumor of? Is actually gonna be a 9th edition boxed set. Space Wolves (with new gravis stuff!) vs Orks! with Orks beign the first new codex of 9th edition.

What new gak do my Orkz get Brian? I want details here so we can cite you when they turn up on the rumour mill sites! Be very specific and sound confident!

If I was a betting man, plastic Ghaz, likely a massive mini, around the size of Gulliman and Abaddon (with a fancy base like theirs)

BrianDavion wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
The 'big summer thing' is probably Primaris Wave 3 (or whatever wave we're on).

that's not exactly at odds with a new edition though, each primaris wave was accompanies by a new box set featuring all new minis.

In fact we've been getting new Ork rumors so... gonna take a WILD guess here.. the SW vs Orks box set we've been hearing rumor of? Is actually gonna be a 9th edition boxed set. Space Wolves (with new gravis stuff!) vs Orks! with Orks beign the first new codex of 9th edition.

Don't wish 'first codex' on the poor orks. That always turns out poorly.

BrianDavion wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
that's not exactly at odds with a new edition though, each primaris wave was accompanies by a new box set featuring all new minis.

In fact we've been getting new Ork rumors so... gonna take a WILD guess here.. the SW vs Orks box set we've been hearing rumor of? Is actually gonna be a 9th edition boxed set. Space Wolves (with new gravis stuff!) vs Orks! with Orks beign the first new codex of 9th edition.

What new gak do my Orkz get Brian? I want details here so we can cite you when they turn up on the rumour mill sites! Be very specific and sound confident!

If I was a betting man, plastic Ghaz, likely a massive mini, around the size of Gulliman and Abaddon (with a fancy base like theirs)

Valrak and Spikey Bits will be quoting you tomorrow.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
Remember how Windows went from Windows 8 to Windows 10? Warhammer 40k 10th edition incoming, you heard it here first!!!!

LOL! That would actually be kind of amazing. 8th Ed gets replaced with "Warhammer 40,000 - Edition X!".

 Grimgold wrote:
Actually, number 3 would just require rolling back the current to wound chart back to 7th ed, with a minor change that you always wound on sixes. It's actually something that's bothered me this entire edition, the whole doubling thing creates a lumpy distribution of ideal stats, like T5 is just soo much better than T4, but T6 and T7 are more expensive than T5 without being better for the vast majority of use cases. Same with Str, 5 is great, 6 and 7 are overpriced, and 8 is a bargain. So much of what is wrong with 40k could be laid at the feet of this one change.

This would go a long way to fixing a few problems that crop up in Codices where units that should be tough are not because of the To Wound chart (I'm looking at you, Mr. Carnifex, who is inexplicably more fragile than a frickin' Rhino!).

The cover/LOS rules could do with a looksee as well. As would melee in general.

Right now melee units have to:

1. Make it across the board.
2. Make their charge without flubbing a random roll.
3. Weather overwatch before they even get to throw a single punch.
4. Watch their opponents just walk away at the start of the next round and then get shot to pieces.

Meanwhile shooting units just have to:

1. Be in range.

There's no (real) downside to Falling Back, and you always get to do it, leaving HTH units high and dry.

 Grimgold wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:
There are very few problems with the game that can be fixed by changing the 8 pages of core rules.

I can think of a few things that need to be addressed.

1 - Terrain
2 - CP generation
3- rapid fire weapons just being better then most dedicated anti-tank weapons.

1 and 2 are easy. 3 would require the creation of some new weapon rules, likely adding a new type to it and some serious errata.

Actually, number 3 would just require rolling back the current to wound chart back to 7th ed, with a minor change that you always wound on sixes. It's actually something that's bothered me this entire edition, the whole doubling thing creates a lumpy distribution of ideal stats, like T5 is just soo much better than T4, but T6 and T7 are more expensive than T5 without being better for the vast majority of use cases. Same with Str, 5 is great, 6 and 7 are overpriced, and 8 is a bargain. So much of what is wrong with 40k could be laid at the feet of this one change.

Indeed, see my post how I mention Stat Lines priced based on 7th edition but in 8th edition context makes the costs nonsensical and inconsistent.

In many ways the problems with 8th is 8th is pointed, designed, and engineered off the previous edition rather than in it's own context. That is why it is so, well, odd in a lot of areas. Why the points make no sense. Why, as you say the T values make little sense vs cost when taken in context of effectiveness in the 8th edition rules set and meta.

That and the complete failure to follow the "Keyword" methodology, the default back into "formations" as well as the return of "army wide perma-bonuses".

8th is an internally inconsistent system as it stands. That is a major issue. A lot of the rules and systems would be fine.. if the T-values were costed in context. If the S-values, the same. If the armies followed the "no/limited" army wide bonuses. If the followed the keywording system and method of inheritance. If they followed the concept of the CP Economy instead of bloating the ever loving hell out of it.

Should I be the one to point out that we're now 2 full pages into a N&R thread without a single credible rumor source or news linked? Is this now the Speculation and Wishlisting forum?

 EnTyme wrote:
Should I be the one to point out that we're now 2 full pages into a N&R thread without a single credible rumor source or news linked? Is this now the Speculation and Wishlisting forum?

A third-hand rumor is a credible source...oh wait.

You want something credible?

As of now every faction (barring the truly lost and damned like Arbites and Squats) has a codex and plastic line.

Just about everyone has a flier and super heavy.

The game is done. Complete.

So GW has to do some sort of churn or people might (gasp) buy slightly less!

9th will come for sure

it will bring changes to the core to mess with the system just enough so that current list making has to change and everyone starts waiting for a new Codex again.

and new editions are likely to released during summer

the only thing are the new campaign books, which will be finished before 9th hit, so it could be autumn or winter.

With GW it is a case of 'when', rather than 'if'. A new edition is guaranteed... there is a reason why 40K is currently on its 8th edition.

It won't be a massive change, just enough tweeks here and there to mean that everyone has to buy the books all over again.

This has been GW's strategy for decades (along with yearly price increases), and it works, people still continue to buy the product.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:
You want something credible?

As of now every faction (barring the truly lost and damned like Arbites and Squats) has a codex and plastic line.

Just about everyone has a flier and super heavy.

The game is done. Complete.

So GW has to do some sort of churn or people might (gasp) buy slightly less!

funny you menton the lost and the damned, as I'd not be TOOO suprised to see a traitor guard codex this year. given all the Blackstone fortress traitor guard we've been getting

 Stormonu wrote:
I’m through with buying books though, I have a complete set of all the Codexes I’ll need for 8E, and I’m not interested in the rules bloat beyond Codexes. I’ve reached the age I’m over trying to keep up with an ever-changing system, and I just want the neat models anyways.

I could stomach buying a new BRB, but my Codexes are less than 6 months old right now (Chaos Knights and SM 2.0), so I'd be pretty miffed if they weren't compatible with any new edition less than a year after they were released, especially when I've already forked out for a second SM codex this edition.

 Brother Castor wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I’m through with buying books though, I have a complete set of all the Codexes I’ll need for 8E, and I’m not interested in the rules bloat beyond Codexes. I’ve reached the age I’m over trying to keep up with an ever-changing system, and I just want the neat models anyways.

I could stomach buying a new BRB, but my Codexes are less than 6 months old right now (Chaos Knights and SM 2.0), so I'd be pretty miffed if they weren't compatible with any new edition less than a year after they were released, especially when I've already forked out for a second SM codex this edition.

they'll be compatable. just like they always are, 8th edition was an rare event. before 8th we had 5 editions where the codices where cross compatable. Obviously if you got a updated codex you used that, but as I understand it, it was possiable to use a 3rd edition codex with 7th edition rules.

sisters of battle until late 5th edition where still using a 3E 'dex for example

 Brother Castor wrote:

I could stomach buying a new BRB, but my Codexes are less than 6 months old right now (Chaos Knights and SM 2.0), so I'd be pretty miffed if they weren't compatible with any new edition less than a year after they were released, especially when I've already forked out for a second SM codex this edition.

Oh, and cards, don't forget that little money spinner too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:

 Stormonu wrote:
I’m through with buying books though, I have a complete set of all the Codexes I’ll need for 8E, and I’m not interested in the rules bloat beyond Codexes. I’ve reached the age I’m over trying to keep up with an ever-changing system, and I just want the neat models anyways.

I could stomach buying a new BRB, but my Codexes are less than 6 months old right now (Chaos Knights and SM 2.0), so I'd be pretty miffed if they weren't compatible with any new edition less than a year after they were released, especially when I've already forked out for a second SM codex this edition.

they'll be compatable. just like they always are, 8th edition was an rare event. before 8th we had 5 editions where the codices where cross compatable. Obviously if you got a updated codex you used that, but as I understand it, it was possiable to use a 3rd edition codex with 7th edition rules.

sisters of battle until late 5th edition where still using a 3E 'dex for example

That's good to hear.

I jumped from 1st edition to 8th edition so missed out on what happened in between.

BrianDavion wrote:

 John Prins wrote:
The 'big summer thing' is probably Primaris Wave 3 (or whatever wave we're on).

that's not exactly at odds with a new edition though, each primaris wave was accompanies by a new box set featuring all new minis.

In fact we've been getting new Ork rumors so... gonna take a WILD guess here.. the SW vs Orks box set we've been hearing rumor of? Is actually gonna be a 9th edition boxed set. Space Wolves (with new gravis stuff!) vs Orks! with Orks beign the first new codex of 9th edition.

Oh bugger in that case. First wait over year for codex, then suffer fate of first npc to get new edition codex aka you are junk.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I got a rumor, it's something big!
GW will pull a Microsoft!!!!

Remember how Windows went from Windows 8 to Windows 10? Warhammer 40k 10th edition incoming, you heard it here first!!!!

I joked this a few months ago and the fanbois shot me down telling me they don't use edition numbers etc. Lol.

In reality, I can envision a new release this summer. Rules changes will be minimal enough to keep current books valid, but enough changes so everyone buys the new rulebook anyway. A bit like they used to do. Then they'll re-release codex books over the next couple of years again until there's an event that starts the cycle over again.

Ignoring CA 2018 and the first SM codex (and datacards) that I've sold, I've still got £££ invested in 8th edition rules:

BRB (£35) + Open War Cards (£10)
Codex SM (£25) + datacards (£10)
Codex Ultramarines (£17.50) + datacards (£10)
Codex Chaos Knights (£25) + datacards (£10)
CA 2019 (£20)

TOTAL: £162.50

Okay, so I probably got 15% off all that not buying through GW, but still, I'd not want to have to re-buy everything. In fact that concern is one of the things that stops me starting a third army or buying campaign books too...

I wonder if GW will ever move the rules online, turn them into an online subscription model with regular updates and army building tools.

Probably. But not this time. It would be a significant enough investment we'd hear about it and it would take a major bomb of a rules set for GW to risk that gamble.

 Brother Castor wrote:


BRB (£35) + Open War Cards (£10)
Codex SM (£25) + datacards (£10)
Codex Ultramarines (£17.50) + datacards (£10)
Codex Chaos Knights (£25) + datacards (£10)
CA 2019 (£20)

TOTAL: £162.50

This right here is why GW will never switch to online rules, and continue to release new editions. It is too much of an easy revenue for them to lose. Seeing that all of the above will be invalidated at some point in the new edition, means that they are a repeat purchase when updated.

Easy money for GW, they are figuratively printing money.

 stonehorse wrote:

 Brother Castor wrote:


BRB (£35) + Open War Cards (£10)
Codex SM (£25) + datacards (£10)
Codex Ultramarines (£17.50) + datacards (£10)
Codex Chaos Knights (£25) + datacards (£10)
CA 2019 (£20)

TOTAL: £162.50

This right here is why GW will never switch to online rules, and continue to release new editions. It is too much of an easy revenue for them to lose. Seeing that all of the above will be invalidated at some point in the new edition, means that they are a repeat purchase when updated.

Easy money for GW, they are figuratively printing money.

And of course with the new Schemes of War rules in CA 2019, datacards are no longer just an optional convenience if you want to play Maelstrom missions. The only thing in that list I don't technically need is the open war cards.

Do you reckon the 'big Summer reveal' could be a move towards a living, subscription-based ruleset?