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Voss wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
It’s April Fools day, but please don’t spread fake stories.

Also with what I’ve been hearing about amazon, I’ve cancelled Prime and I’m endeavouring to never buy from them again.

What did Amazon do now?

Amazon fired the guy who led the walkout protest.
On the other hand, he was also supposed to be staying at home, with pay, on quarantine for possible exposure to the virus.

That seems pretty reasonable to me. But then, today has been a litany of workers making demands for more money and threatening strikes, which seems shaking moral ground and dangerous employment grounds when there's a glut of newly unemployed people who'll line up to replace them.

Yeah, as long as we can just keep feeding serfs into the grinder who cares right?

The carrier being talked about is the USS Theodore Roosevelt in Guam. They're still close quarters so its spreading like what happened on the cruise ship. CPT is way concern because he cannot decon the ship with infected crew members still on board. Those of us that was/were in the military knows its gawddamn drastic for him to come out like that.

Nothing really new. Though cotton gowns and surgical masks are being considered now. They can be sterilized in a hospital or a portable sterilizer. That's a surgical room aspect but that free up more gowns and PPE for use elsewhere.

Positive note. The remixes being done by Akon and them are pretty damn rocking.

We're using railheads now to ship materials out. Basically we be using rail more then semi's. The semi's are to be used for hot shot cargo haul that needs to get there now.

Bad news. I say it simply. No one really covering or tracking the homeless.

 Jihadin wrote:
The carrier being talked about is the USS Theodore Roosevelt in Guam. They're still close quarters so its spreading like what happened on the cruise ship. CPT is way concern because he cannot decon the ship with infected crew members still on board. Those of us that was/were in the military knows its gawddamn drastic for him to come out like that.

Nothing really new. Though cotton gowns and surgical masks are being considered now. They can be sterilized in a hospital or a portable sterilizer. That's a surgical room aspect but that free up more gowns and PPE for use elsewhere.

Positive note. The remixes being done by Akon and them are pretty damn rocking.

We're using railheads now to ship materials out. Basically we be using rail more then semi's. The semi's are to be used for hot shot cargo haul that needs to get there now.

Bad news. I say it simply. No one really covering or tracking the homeless.

There is a silver lining to this.
NBC training opportunity. This kind of gak could happen in war.
US carriers are extravagent, cramped and overmanned, they have 50% larger air group than a UK or French carrier, but about four times the manpower.
I am actually shocked at how little protection there iappears to be against an infection. I was expecting filters and shielding and NBC contingencies which should also take effect against a virus.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
It’s April Fools day, but please don’t spread fake stories.

Also with what I’ve been hearing about amazon, I’ve cancelled Prime and I’m endeavouring to never buy from them again.

What did Amazon do now?

Amazon fired the guy who led the walkout protest.
On the other hand, he was also supposed to be staying at home, with pay, on quarantine for possible exposure to the virus.

That seems pretty reasonable to me. But then, today has been a litany of workers making demands for more money and threatening strikes, which seems shaking moral ground and dangerous employment grounds when there's a glut of newly unemployed people who'll line up to replace them.

Yeah, as long as we can just keep feeding serfs into the grinder who cares right?

Sure, you could take it that way.

Personally, since delivery services are becoming more essential for large segments of the population, I find leveraging the pandemic for a pay raise by threatening to leave people without access to essential food and medicine deliveries to be fairly disgusting. Sorry, Granny Jill, we need more cash money before you get your meds this week. Hopefully you won't die, but honestly, we don't care as long as we get ours, right?

Times are tough all over. Prioritizing selfishness over helping others strikes me as the wrong road.

I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.

The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.

Amazon are all about gouging, cutting corners and not paying enough wages or enough tax. Conditions for workers in Amazon in Europe are bad enough, in the US they are worse due to even fewer workers safeguards. Enough is enough.

I know people who worked in an Amazon warehouse and it is draconian very hire and fire, and with no prospects and lots of suspicion. Staff are treated like suspect thieves, toilet break are timed work practices can be best described as Dickensian. You can get censured if someone picking you up after sghift doesnt park in the rifght place, and you can be summarily dismissed after two censures. Yes you can be summarily dismissed after two infractions by a third party.

Frankly Amazon are c-words, they need to be taken down a peg or two, and this is coming from someone who doesn't have a single socialist bone in his body.

COVID-19 is a chance for employees to gain some rights, and I hope they get it. Just in the same way the Black Death killed the feudal stranglehold and gave the peasantry some political leeway.

How is your old man Orlanth hope he is well , as I remember you saiD all your precautions were taken for him due to his ill health.

I see all these countries I.e the UK predicting a total of 20000 deaths , is there a world prediction?

Also the NHS hour at supermarkets is great as I can get all the supplies I need even toilet roll in well stocked supermarkets.

You can't really get a world prediction with China blatantly lying about its figures.
Even a prediction needs some semblance of accuracy

 ValentineGames wrote:
You can't really get a world prediction with China blatantly lying about its figures.
Even a prediction needs some semblance of accuracy

Very true, lran, N Korea and China are likely to fudge numbers.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Jihadin wrote:
The carrier being talked about is the USS Theodore Roosevelt in Guam. They're still close quarters so its spreading like what happened on the cruise ship. CPT is way concern because he cannot decon the ship with infected crew members still on board. Those of us that was/were in the military knows its gawddamn drastic for him to come out like that.

Nothing really new. Though cotton gowns and surgical masks are being considered now. They can be sterilized in a hospital or a portable sterilizer. That's a surgical room aspect but that free up more gowns and PPE for use elsewhere.

Positive note. The remixes being done by Akon and them are pretty damn rocking.

We're using railheads now to ship materials out. Basically we be using rail more then semi's. The semi's are to be used for hot shot cargo haul that needs to get there now.

Bad news. I say it simply. No one really covering or tracking the homeless.

There is a silver lining to this.
NBC training opportunity. This kind of gak could happen in war.
US carriers are extravagent, cramped and overmanned, they have 50% larger air group than a UK or French carrier, but about four times the manpower.
I am actually shocked at how little protection there iappears to be against an infection. I was expecting filters and shielding and NBC contingencies which should also take effect against a virus.

You've seen too many films.

My opinion would be to keep them all on there, except any that may need critical care, for obvious reasons. Have clean medical crew in protective gear go in and perform testing, and take in supplies. once you've had the antibody test and passed, you can leave.

No, not really, is it questionable to do so, sure, but then again lets not forget that institutions like "workingpeace agreements" are not widespread in the states as is worker protection. I am not left of the mariana trench but there are things that were systematically denied to the workforce and now the employers have a revolt to deal with off their own making.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Marxist artist wrote:

 ValentineGames wrote:
You can't really get a world prediction with China blatantly lying about its figures.
Even a prediction needs some semblance of accuracy

Very true, lran, N Korea and China are likely to fudge numbers.

North Korea?

Also why would Iran fudge their numbers, they are one of the hardest hit and require that sanctions are lifted else they get the full brunt off it.

The Mask/No Nask hypothesis is disproved by the fact that Korea's infection curve was as sharp as any of the No Mask nation's, and it's a famously mask-wearing nation like Japan.

The science around masks says the standard type of surgical mask offers more or less no protection against the virus. It could actually increase your chance of being infected. If you touch a surface with virus particles on it, then touch the mask, the viruses are transferred to the mask. The moisture in your breath will then mobilise them and transport them through the material, which is pretty much transparent to such small particles.

There are other reasons why Japan and Singapore have a low curve.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

Memos from CDC to White House lay out rationale for possible widespread use of face coverings

From the Washington Post : "Federal officials debating whether to recommend that face coverings be routinely worn in public are responding to increasing evidence that infected people without symptoms can spread the coronavirus, according to internal memos provided to the White House by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. Simple cloth masks that cover the mouth and nose can prevent virus transmission from such individuals when they are out buying groceries or seeking medical care, according to the memos obtained by The Washington Post. ... The memos make clear the coverings under discussion are not medical masks, such as N95 respirators or surgical face masks. ...There’s still no consensus in the scientific community on whether widespread use of such coverings would make a significant difference, and some infectious disease experts worry that masks could lull people into a false sense of security and make them less disciplined about social distancing ."

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/memos-from-cdc-to-white-house-lay-out-rationale-for-possible-widespread-use-of-face-coverings/ar-BB11YZFz

If they mandate wearing masks here, I will do my shopping in full NBC kit.

Voss wrote:

Times are tough all over. Prioritizing selfishness over helping others strikes me as the wrong road.

'I would like to be paid a liveable wage by a company whose vast profits are derived from absolutely non-essential sales for a job which currently may actually risk my life' is not selfishness.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
If they mandate wearing masks here, I will do my shopping in full NBC kit.

Well, i guess why not?
I do hope for you that the weather isn't overly warm though.

It's freezing here atm..

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
It's freezing here atm..

Well, then go ahead

Voss wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

 Future War Cultist wrote:
It’s April Fools day, but please don’t spread fake stories.

Also with what I’ve been hearing about amazon, I’ve cancelled Prime and I’m endeavouring to never buy from them again.

What did Amazon do now?

Amazon fired the guy who led the walkout protest.
On the other hand, he was also supposed to be staying at home, with pay, on quarantine for possible exposure to the virus.

That seems pretty reasonable to me. But then, today has been a litany of workers making demands for more money and threatening strikes, which seems shaking moral ground and dangerous employment grounds when there's a glut of newly unemployed people who'll line up to replace them.

Yeah, as long as we can just keep feeding serfs into the grinder who cares right?

Sure, you could take it that way.

Personally, since delivery services are becoming more essential for large segments of the population, I find leveraging the pandemic for a pay raise by threatening to leave people without access to essential food and medicine deliveries to be fairly disgusting. Sorry, Granny Jill, we need more cash money before you get your meds this week. Hopefully you won't die, but honestly, we don't care as long as we get ours, right?

Times are tough all over. Prioritizing selfishness over helping others strikes me as the wrong road.

It was fine when the other side of the equation prioritized selfishness for years though? We've finally seen just how essential those employees are, seems perfect time to demand fair treatment for essential labor.

Cronch wrote:

It was fine when the other side of the equation prioritized selfishness for years though? We've finally seen just how essential those employees are, seems perfect time to demand fair treatment for essential labor.

This. Saying that you shouldn't be able to capitalise on events which give more power to the workers in order to try and get more equitable treatment from those holding the capital is effectively tilting the power even further towards those capitalists and away from the workers.

Don't blame the workers that the government has fostered an environment where their only chance for acquiring stronger rights is through this kind of action and that same government has not adequately set up a social safety net which would help prevent such desperation for its own people when faced with a pabdemic.

 Orlanth wrote:
I have a different take, and one I predicted from the start of this thread.

The pandemic will unlock societal change. The US is too corporate and right wing, low tier workers have too few rights compared to just about any modern democratic state.

I am sure Covid-19 will change the way the US approaches workers rights just the way Sandy Hook changed the way that we approached gun violence, and the Afghanistan War changed the way we approach the military-industrial context.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The Mask/No Nask hypothesis is disproved by the fact that Korea's infection curve was as sharp as any of the No Mask nation's, and it's a famously mask-wearing nation like Japan.

I don't think that's a fair generalization of Korea, at least. They got caught by surprise early by that large church meeting in close quarters, without masks, and infecting hundreds of people to seed the nation before they were ready. The fact that they then completely demolished the curve after those cases were dealt with would only add to the mask argument, not detract from it.

At the Very least, we know it can make a person 5x less likely to get sick if in the vicinity of someone who is positive. Of course washing hands, not touching your face, also obviously help. But to say it's been disproved or doesn't help just isn't factual. There are lots of reasons why it can't be implemented in a large country like the US, of course (lack of masks, different culture, etc). But that's very different from saying it wasn't a factor in the strategy of those very successful countries.

Interesting article on how some of these models that show social distancing can greatly reduce infections are actually burying the lede, at least somewhat.

For the lazy, a model showing this:



The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.

I think the idea is by then, we'd be much better prepared (with at least a treatment, even if a vaccine isn't ready). But yeah, omitting that is a little disingenuous. However, you obviously can't stay shut down forever, and if doing so for a bit now gets us into the summer when people are less susceptible, that's good at least.

Dr. Fauci did say he expects another outbreak in the winter. But imo it would be impossible to be less ready than we were now and progress on treatments has been very good. So that would obviously effect that graph a lot, too.

Had to eat some food today without the ability to wash my hands beforehand. That’s me fethed then.

Your work conditions really need improving, FWC

On masks, here's Dr. Fauci's take from yesterday. They're considering it, and I'm sure it would help, but logistically just not sure it could be pulled off in the US:

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/03/31/fauci-mask-recommendation-coronavirus-157476

Yeah the UK government has been very up front that the whole social distancing and isolation pattern is purely about smoothing the curve so that its easier for the NHS to cope. They've never said that it would outright stop infection. The virus spreads too easily, has too long an incubation and has spread too far that, without a vaccine, its nearly impossible to stop its spread now without taking even more extreme isolation measures. And they would only work if it was done the world over, not just within one country.

Suffice to say if you can smooth the curve you reduce deaths from those who will only survive with medial aid. Those who will survive without hospital aid are none the better either way, but those who need medical cover gain greatly because a health system that isn't overloaded can better cope. Plus whilst there's always a finite cap the production and provision of more beds, ventilators and better understanding of the disease means that the total number of patients that the system can cope with, is rising the whole time.



For example the drug that France is adopting which can reduce the recovery time by half makes a huge difference to the rate of infection that a country can sustain.






So yes I'd wager countries doing isolation will eventually remove isolation measures and then likely 2 to 4 weeks later will bring them back into force

 Ouze wrote:
Interesting article on how some of these models that show social distancing can greatly reduce infections are actually burying the lede, at least somewhat.

For the lazy, a model showing this:

Spoiler:

Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:

The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but this reads like a 'They're lying to you! They're just putting off the problem!'

That's exactly the point. No institution advocating social distancing says that's going to seriously reduce (and certainly not stop) the infections, it's entirely about reducing the infections at any given time.

 RiTides wrote:
Your work conditions really need improving, FWC

On masks, here's Dr. Fauci's take from yesterday. They're considering it, and I'm sure it would help, but logistically just not sure it could be pulled off in the US:

https://www.politico.com/amp/news/2020/03/31/fauci-mask-recommendation-coronavirus-157476

Yup, this all makes me think of a line that Garrus says in ME3 about the "cold calculus of war".

Instead it is the cold calculus of medicine on a societal level. Maybe everyone having masks would help and less people would get infected. But then you might end up with a shortage of masks for those who are in more contact with infected persons. And so those who can treat the infected people end up ill themselves, which reduces the total care that can be given. So you have to accept more people getting infected and potentially dying in order to try and make sure that the people who will be caring for those who are sick have access to adequate protection, which means they can keep caring for people for longer and results in less deaths in the long run.

nfe wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Interesting article on how some of these models that show social distancing can greatly reduce infections are actually burying the lede, at least somewhat.

For the lazy, a model showing this:

Spoiler:

Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:

The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but this reads like a 'They're lying to you! They're just putting off the problem!'

That's exactly the point. No institution advocating social distancing says that's going to seriously reduce (and certainly not stop) the infections, it's entirely about reducing the infections at any given time.

But no one is seriously suggesting (yet) that the country-wide lockdowns continue until a vaccine is developed - which is probably a year out, right? Unless that is the plan, and I don't think it's been said it is, then what difference does it make whether we overwhelm hospitals and spike fatalities now, or in October?

I mean, the chances I am missing something are pretty good. Maybe the idea is to dramatically ramp up healthcare availability in parallel? Even with no vaccine, that would make sense.

 Ouze wrote:

nfe wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Interesting article on how some of these models that show social distancing can greatly reduce infections are actually burying the lede, at least somewhat.

For the lazy, a model showing this:

Spoiler:

Looks great, but artificially ends in October. The model is javascript and runs in a browser, so you can actually edit to to run past October - which gives you this:

The argument is that until there is a actual vaccine, all social distancing is doing is kicking the can down the road.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but this reads like a 'They're lying to you! They're just putting off the problem!'

That's exactly the point. No institution advocating social distancing says that's going to seriously reduce (and certainly not stop) the infections, it's entirely about reducing the infections at any given time.

But no one is seriously suggesting (yet) that the country-wide lockdowns continue until a vaccine is developed - which is probably a year out, right? Unless that is the plan, and I don't think it's been said it is, then what difference does it make whether we overwhelm hospitals and spike fatalities now, or in October?

I mean, the chances I am missing something are pretty good.

Because by October we'll have procured more beds, ventilators, protective equipment etc.

Even if it still ends up overloaded, it will still be in a better position to treat more people than if it were overloaded now.