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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 11:54:32
Subject: Coronavirus
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Overread wrote: queen_annes_revenge wrote:Thats the problem. the NHS has been made into this divine power that we praise with the weekly clap and pot banging. its quite funny that we've reverted to a primitive form of worship akin to those performed by our ancient ancestors, for our new deity, or should I say one of our new deities.
thats why I don't partake of the weekly clap for the NHS. that, aswell as the fact that its really just a form of self satisfying virtue signalling.
In before I'm accused of not caring for NHS workers...
It's a form of self satisfaction, but its also a means to have people feel like they are doing something. One of the most frustrating things about this is that the best thing most people can do is to stay at home and do nothing. That's very hard for a lot of people to come to terms with mentally - that the best thing is nothing. Most people are used to action and doing something for an achievement. The clapping is just a venting point. It's also means to try and provide some sense of unity, especially in urban areas where many people are already very distant to their locals and family. Remember a lot of people are very isolated in this situation so a united clapping, even for one evening a week, provides some sense that they aren't alone in a physical sense.
It's nothing bad and yes it achieves nothing in a physical resources sense, but it does reinforce many points.
It's like the "how to wash your hands" guide. The information itself is nearly pointless as most people know how to wash; however the guide allows for a reminder to drive home the point not how you do it, but that you should do it and do it more often.
As for the whole primitive reversion, eh its not as if clapping is something we've not done for generations. We clap at the threatre and at the school plays; a particularly good film might even get it; we clap at sporting events and parties. Clapping is just part of normal modern life.
Fair enough. I'm not going to decry any positives that it may or may not promote, but to me personally it just seems like the weekly act of devotion to our new religion, and thats not for me.
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Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 12:02:56
Subject: Coronavirus
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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I'm not a big fan of the weekly applause either. Especially since the government have almost simulataneously said 'it's too early to be talking about their pay and bonuses' while granting themselves an extra package for their alleged expenses of working from home, which I thought they did when they weren't in Westminster anyway...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 12:50:44
Subject: Coronavirus
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Locked in the Tower of Amareo
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2024 painted/bought: 109/109 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 13:31:57
Subject: Coronavirus
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor
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Crispy78 wrote:I'm not a big fan of the weekly applause either. Especially since the government have almost simulataneously said 'it's too early to be talking about their pay and bonuses' while granting themselves an extra package for their alleged expenses of working from home, which I thought they did when they weren't in Westminster anyway...
This. It's the moral equivalent of FB "thoughts and prayers", and I refuse to participate in those, too.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 13:33:53
Subject: Coronavirus
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Confessor Of Sins
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tneva82 wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-kills-more-americans-one-162549658.html
Just a flu eh.
Yea... a lot of the dismissive post early on are not aging well.
But you can't blame people for not wanting/or not jumping on this. Nothing like this has happened in 100 years... people (not individuals) didn't understand the danger.
That said, there are still people in denial about how dangerous it is... and looking to grab onto strings of bravery through... So much "Reaction formation" happening in the protest groups its really... surreal to watch. (Reaction formation: People who use this psychologic defense mechanism recognize how they feel, but they choose to behave in the opposite manner of their instincts... i.e., the protesters are scared and instead of acting scared they act outraged so they won't be affraid)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 14:10:03
Subject: Coronavirus
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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Henry wrote:
Ask someone who's just washed their hands whether they actually washed their hands and its likely they will be offended that you question them being able to carry out a simple task.
This is the problem with "common sense" and "everybody knows". It turns out that common sense might be common but it doesn't make sense when subject to critical study. Ever been to the dentist and they put the dye on your teeth to show where you missed brushing? They do the same for washing hands and most people almost completely miss the thumbs and the little fingers. That person who just "washed their hands" actually only partially did the job but is completely unaware of their lack of competence in carrying out this simple task.
This is the reason people can't necessarily be trusted to do straightforward things without training or oversight. The requirements to do the straightforward things properly do not necessarily make sense without an understanding that's beyond a ley-person's immediate knowledge.
Hence we have people packing guns protesting the shutdowns. It isn't that they haven't got a clue - it's the fact they haven't got a clue about how much they haven't got a clue.
No offense, but are you an American or have you lived in America for an extended period of time? There's good reason for some of the protests since different states have varying levels of restrictions, and not all protests were done stupidly or for stupid reasons.
Operation gridlock is a good example of people protesting by driving in circles around the buildings. CA has relatively mild restrictions so protests here make less sense except for tourist areas that WILL go under during lockdown. They have to try, I don't blame them. A city near me was almost forced to use a facility without consulting the city first or even assessing the center itself. People protested because it was against local ordinance and would have been an extremely unsafe place (no reverse air pressure etc) in close proximity to a bunch of highly populated suburban areas. It got blocked and lives were probably saved as a result of it. Lots of states released prisoners into the general population while simultaneously closing gun stores which is upsetting some people for a lot of reasons.
tldr; Don't condemn them for protesting. Condemn them for protesting stupidly and dangerously. Israel pulled it off quite nicely: https://time.com/5824133/israel-netanyahu-covid-protest-lapid/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 14:25:55
Subject: Coronavirus
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Assassin with Black Lotus Poison
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Israel isn't protesting a lockdown in response to a pandemic, though.
The people protesting to reopen stuff are protesting the wrong thing. They should be asking where the government support is for people who are struggling, not to completely destroy any progress in curbing the spread of a highly infectious and deadly disease.
Because guess what, if you open everything back up, the infection rate massively spikes again and your health services get overwhelmed then you're still going to be up gak creek economy-wise. You'll just have a higher death toll on top of that.
Also, that is the same Operation Gridlock which blocked the emergency vehicle access to a hospital in Michigan, right? You sure you want to try and hold that up as an example of a good way to protest?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/23 14:39:24
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 14:42:29
Subject: Coronavirus
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Grim Dark Angels Interrogator-Chaplain
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queen_annes_revenge wrote: Overread wrote: queen_annes_revenge wrote:Thats the problem. the NHS has been made into this divine power that we praise with the weekly clap and pot banging. its quite funny that we've reverted to a primitive form of worship akin to those performed by our ancient ancestors, for our new deity, or should I say one of our new deities.
thats why I don't partake of the weekly clap for the NHS. that, aswell as the fact that its really just a form of self satisfying virtue signalling.
In before I'm accused of not caring for NHS workers...
It's a form of self satisfaction, but its also a means to have people feel like they are doing something. One of the most frustrating things about this is that the best thing most people can do is to stay at home and do nothing. That's very hard for a lot of people to come to terms with mentally - that the best thing is nothing. Most people are used to action and doing something for an achievement. The clapping is just a venting point. It's also means to try and provide some sense of unity, especially in urban areas where many people are already very distant to their locals and family. Remember a lot of people are very isolated in this situation so a united clapping, even for one evening a week, provides some sense that they aren't alone in a physical sense.
It's nothing bad and yes it achieves nothing in a physical resources sense, but it does reinforce many points.
It's like the "how to wash your hands" guide. The information itself is nearly pointless as most people know how to wash; however the guide allows for a reminder to drive home the point not how you do it, but that you should do it and do it more often.
As for the whole primitive reversion, eh its not as if clapping is something we've not done for generations. We clap at the threatre and at the school plays; a particularly good film might even get it; we clap at sporting events and parties. Clapping is just part of normal modern life.
Fair enough. I'm not going to decry any positives that it may or may not promote, but to me personally it just seems like the weekly act of devotion to our new religion, and thats not for me.
you do not need to clap for me, I work for the NHS and also do not like the virtue signaling, I would much rather people started to live healthier lives in honour of the NHS, or quit smoking, drinking etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 14:50:07
Subject: Coronavirus
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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A Town Called Malus wrote:Israel isn't protesting a lockdown in response to a pandemic, though.
The people protesting to reopen stuff are protesting the wrong thing. They should be asking where the government support is for people who are struggling, not to completely destroy any progress in curbing the spread of a highly infectious and deadly disease.
Because guess what, if you open everything back up, the infection rate massively spikes again and your health services get overwhelmed then you're still going to be up gak creek economy-wise. You'll just have a higher death toll on top of that.
Also, that is the same Operation Gridlock which blocked the emergency vehicle access to a hospital in Michigan, right? You sure you want to try and hold that up as an example of a good way to protest?
Those people wouldn't be struggling if the government hadn't locked everything down. So yes, it is the government who is at fault over that and they should protest that. No, they shouldn't be interfering with hospitals. That is stupid. They should be outside officials homes and the capital building.
If health services get overwhelmed, we're not going to be as stuffed economy-wise as this total shutdown will cause. There would be enough unaffected people who would still be working and having income to keep the economy from total collapse, unlike what is going to happen if we don't open soon.
There is guaranteed danger, and far more potential deaths, from not reopening the economy than there is from opening the economy. We are already potentially heading for a global famine, which will kill exponentially more than COVID could if we'd done nothing.
Crispy78 wrote: Grey Templar wrote:
These people protesting in groups are only exposing themselves. They're not going into the homes of those who choose to stay isolated, so they're not exposing anybody who isn't participating in the event.
This is ridiculously naïve. Do they have families at home? Do they go shopping? Do they use public transport? Anyone infected at a protest will almost certainly have multiple opportunities to pass on the infection to others.
Yes, they can infect others. But other people who did not participate in the protest are assumed to be following 'proper' protocols. IE: If person B is staying home and practicing social distancing, it doesn't matter if person A is going out and not practicing it.
If social distancing and staying home only worked if everybody did it then it would be a useless tool because of all the essential workers who can't practice it.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 14:51:40
Subject: Coronavirus
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Battlefield Tourist
MN (Currently in WY)
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Formosa wrote:ugh. I'm not going to decry any positives that it may or may not promote, but to me personally it just seems like the weekly act of devotion to our new religion, and thats not for me.
you do not need to clap for me, I work for the NHS and also do not like the virtue signaling, I would much rather people started to live healthier lives in honour of the NHS, or quit smoking, drinking etc.
Word!
Can we also stop fetishizing emergency workers, paramedics, firefighters, police officers, and military folks while we are at it too?
I was hoping this crisis might bring newfound respect to Public Health officials, Inspectors, Regulators, and Teachers.... but who am I kidding?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 15:35:01
Subject: Coronavirus
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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Formosa wrote:
you do not need to clap for me, I work for the NHS and also do not like the virtue signaling, I would much rather people started to live healthier lives in honour of the NHS, or quit smoking, drinking etc.
Well, you can thank me because I try to stay healthy!
No I'm kidding. I have huge respect for the NHS, especially considering their pay and conditions, and some of the pond scum they have to deal with.
I actually do charity fundraising when I can for an NICU charity called cots for tots. I raised over £2000 for them when I was last away on detachment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
You might aswell not bother grey templar. If you express any concern for the economy or other issues at this time, all it means is that you're selfish and want people to die.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/04/23 15:38:22
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 15:40:13
Subject: Coronavirus
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Slaanesh Veteran Marine with Tentacles
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A Town Called Malus wrote:Israel isn't protesting a lockdown in response to a pandemic, though.
The people protesting to reopen stuff are protesting the wrong thing. They should be asking where the government support is for people who are struggling, not to completely destroy any progress in curbing the spread of a highly infectious and deadly disease.
Because guess what, if you open everything back up, the infection rate massively spikes again and your health services get overwhelmed then you're still going to be up gak creek economy-wise. You'll just have a higher death toll on top of that.
Also, that is the same Operation Gridlock which blocked the emergency vehicle access to a hospital in Michigan, right? You sure you want to try and hold that up as an example of a good way to protest?
Oh let me be clear. I think loosening restrictions is absolutely moronic right now. Again, condemn their mistakes not the general idea. Using vehicles to protest while maintaining social distancing is a good idea. Doing it in a way that also blocks emergency vehicle traffic is not. Leave a lane open specifically for emergency vehicles. Let them protest and ignore them like we do the anti-vaxxers. People who refuse to wear PPE in public can be denied entry to businesses in the same way "no shoes, no shirt, no service" signs do. Or how schools are starting to refuse students who haven't been vaccinated either. Teach them how to protest safely, punish them if they endanger others (blocking traffic, not wearing PPE), and the most important part: keep the restrictions in place as necessary medically/economically not politically.
It's the same exact stupidity as the "normal people won't wear masks right so they shouldn't even wear them" stuff that was floating around a few months ago. Educate people, "We have a shortage of supplies so medical professionals get it first followed by essential workers." Then once supplies are starting to be replenished, release a PSA from an official or celebrity showing how to safely put on masks/gloves etc.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 15:46:23
Subject: Coronavirus
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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That mask misinformation drives up the wall a bit lol, as in 20/20 hindsight it is just complete common sense. If frequent hand washing is important, obviously covering everyone's mouth would logically be, too. And yet there was this widespread narrative that it was irrelevant for people, yet vital for healthcare workers - a complete logical fallacy.
That has obviously been reversed now, but it definitely made me not want to read common / conventional wisdom, or even well meaning public health statements, not based on science.
(I'm aware, of course, that many masks are primarily stopping transmission, not one's own infection, but the end result is the same if used in a widespread manner)
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This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2020/04/23 16:01:03
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 15:56:51
Subject: Coronavirus
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Thane of Dol Guldur
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I'm not being funny, but I'm not going to wander around outside wearing a mask, I'm certainly not going to wear one in my own car like I see some people doing(?)
Shops, well maybe but I won't be doing it until its mandated.
Health are workers are in an environment where there is the risk of high concentrations of virus, being aerosolised and on surfaces. It makes sense to minimise potential exposure there.
But outside in the open air with barely anyone around? No.
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Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children
Instagram: nagrakali_love_songs |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 15:59:47
Subject: Coronavirus
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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Yes, obviously the setting matters  . But the basic principle / logic is so clear, and yet all media and public statements were of the exact opposite for so long. Ugh. If nothing else, worldwide we will have learned a ton from this pandemic and be hopefully better equipped to handle another in the future (similar to how South Korea was clearly ready for this as a society).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 16:10:59
Subject: Coronavirus
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[MOD]
Otiose in a Niche
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frgsinwntr wrote:tneva82 wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-kills-more-americans-one-162549658.html
Just a flu eh.
Yea... a lot of the dismissive post early on are not aging well.
But you can't blame people for not wanting/or not jumping on this. Nothing like this has happened in 100 years... people (not individuals) didn't understand the danger.
That said, there are still people in denial about how dangerous it is... and looking to grab onto strings of bravery through... So much "Reaction formation" happening in the protest groups its really... surreal to watch. (Reaction formation: People who use this psychologic defense mechanism recognize how they feel, but they choose to behave in the opposite manner of their instincts... i.e., the protesters are scared and instead of acting scared they act outraged so they won't be affraid)
Great article and great context, I'm glad I'm talking to my parents in NY every night.
I think there was also a feeling that people had cried wolf too many times. After SARS, Avian Influenza, H1N1 and Swine Flu there was a feeling that this would be no more than a minor inconvenience. Some kids would miss their study abroad trip in China and we'd all move on.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 16:53:30
Subject: Coronavirus
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Legendary Dogfighter
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Everyone ready for their Thursday BBQ and drink fest???
Oops... I mean clapping... Yeah clapping...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 17:24:50
Subject: Coronavirus
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Member of the Ethereal Council
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Kid_Kyoto wrote: frgsinwntr wrote:tneva82 wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/news/coronavirus-kills-more-americans-one-162549658.html
Just a flu eh.
Yea... a lot of the dismissive post early on are not aging well.
But you can't blame people for not wanting/or not jumping on this. Nothing like this has happened in 100 years... people (not individuals) didn't understand the danger.
That said, there are still people in denial about how dangerous it is... and looking to grab onto strings of bravery through... So much "Reaction formation" happening in the protest groups its really... surreal to watch. (Reaction formation: People who use this psychologic defense mechanism recognize how they feel, but they choose to behave in the opposite manner of their instincts... i.e., the protesters are scared and instead of acting scared they act outraged so they won't be affraid)
Great article and great context, I'm glad I'm talking to my parents in NY every night.
I think there was also a feeling that people had cried wolf too many times. After SARS, Avian Influenza, H1N1 and Swine Flu there was a feeling that this would be no more than a minor inconvenience. Some kids would miss their study abroad trip in China and we'd all move on.
I think part of it is people just desperatly to to cling to normalcy and try to ignore inconvenience or anything that can change that. Automatically Appended Next Post: RiTides wrote:Yes, obviously the setting matters  . But the basic principle / logic is so clear, and yet all media and public statements were of the exact opposite for so long. Ugh. If nothing else, worldwide we will have learned a ton from this pandemic and be hopefully better equipped to handle another in the future (similar to how South Korea was clearly ready for this as a society).
What alllowed SK to be ready for this?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/04/23 17:25:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 17:34:05
Subject: Coronavirus
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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hotsauceman1 wrote:
RiTides wrote:Yes, obviously the setting matters  . But the basic principle / logic is so clear, and yet all media and public statements were of the exact opposite for so long. Ugh. If nothing else, worldwide we will have learned a ton from this pandemic and be hopefully better equipped to handle another in the future (similar to how South Korea was clearly ready for this as a society).
What alllowed SK to be ready for this?
I was thinking about that, and I think I may have found the answer.
South Korea is under constant threat from North Korea. The necessary precautions for a war with such a belligerent neighbor that could literally happen in minutes most likely means that South Korea has massive stockpiles of supplies for such a war. A war that could involve biologicals. Sure, we mostly think about nuclear weapons from NK, but biological warfare is also a possibility. South Korea would also have put many redundancies in their healthcare system because they could have a massive chunk of their infrastructure destroyed in minutes at the same time they need to triage millions of civilians.
So they're probably better prepared for all types of crisis in general because they live day to day in a situation where it could all go to hell in mere minutes.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 17:36:12
Subject: Coronavirus
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Rogue Daemonhunter fueled by Chaos
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I think that culturally, there is a stronger sense of obedience to authority and putting the needs of society ahead of yourself in South Korea (and other countries with a confucian influence).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 17:51:37
Subject: Coronavirus
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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All that is definitely true, but what I was referring to was just the threat of SARS in recent years and how they had already prepared as a society for the real possibility of that outbreak (not to lessen any of the above points, just adding that).
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 17:53:53
Subject: Coronavirus
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The Dread Evil Lord Varlak
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RiTides wrote:All that is definitely true, but what I was referring to was just the threat of SARS in recent years and how they had already prepared as a society for the real possibility of that outbreak (not to lessen any of the above points, just adding that).
Whilest there can be cultural reasons i feel like the constant sars threat is probably the most important bit as to why South Korea is prepared.
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https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page
A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units."
Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?"
Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?"
GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!"
Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 17:59:29
Subject: Coronavirus
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
UK
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Not Online!!! wrote: RiTides wrote:All that is definitely true, but what I was referring to was just the threat of SARS in recent years and how they had already prepared as a society for the real possibility of that outbreak (not to lessen any of the above points, just adding that).
Whilest there can be cultural reasons i feel like the constant sars threat is probably the most important bit as to why South Korea is prepared.
And the reason why many western nations weren't prepared - we got scares with those previous viruses, but nothing ever came of it. Even those that did make it over like Bird and Swine flu were mostly isolated to the more rural regions and tended to focus more on improving farm biosecurity and stock importing laws (indeed since the major outbreak most of the more recent bird-flu outbreaks have been in big poultry units rather than from purely wild stock). So it was mostly farmers and the rural communities that felt the bite; whilst those who were afflicted were not in numbers great enough to put strain on the medical system.
This outbreak is totally different; if anything its a total flip over from rural to urban. The scale is far greater and its actually affecting the health services (and would cripple any health service without lockdowns).
And because we weren't prepared properly at the government nor at the personal level; it has been much easier for the disease to spread because lockdowns and self isolation and personal health measures etc.... are all lagging behind.
Plus it only takes a gap of a generation or so for experiences to vanish from a community. So even if we muscle through this one; if nothing happens for another hundred years chances are it will repeat all over again.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 18:15:25
Subject: Coronavirus
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Stone Bonkers Fabricator General
We'll find out soon enough eh.
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This is a response to comments made by queen_annes_revenge in the News & Rumours thread, which discussion has been banished here by the mods:
queen_annes_revenge wrote:Well, I guess if you ignore the predicted deaths from an economic collapse such as that we're facing, aswell as the decreases standards of living, decreased wages, increased taxes etc, then you could probably straw man away anyone who dares to raise concerns about such issues as a 'sociopath' but then that isn't really conducive to rational and reasonable debate.
My grandad is 92 and has asbestosis, if this gets even slightly near him he's done for, I'm not even remotely interested in people trying to mumble about "reasonable debate fnar fnar". Also, if you were actually interested in "reasonable debate", you'd have gone to the trouble of actually reading the bit of my post where I explicitly addressed the nonsense idea that lifting the lockdown will somehow avoid "economic collapse" - it won't, because if you lift the lockdown now - again, even partially - in the absence of either a vaccine OR a thorough, population-wide test, trace, isolate programme, then we will be right back to where we were and be forced to lockdown again potentially for even longer, and further it's not as if half a million people dying and the NHS being unable to treat anyone for anything else for a period of potentially months is a scenario that would have no economic impact now is it
But yeah, if someone's pitting a modest drop in standard of living(oh noes, poor middle class people won't be able to take a foreign holiday every single year sometimes twice? i weep  ) against hundreds of thousands of lives, I consider them to be a sociopath.
The NHS is not overwhelmed.
London says hi. Also you really do need to double check what tense people are using. Will be. Is predicted to. In the future. If the outbreak isn't suppressed - not "flattened", not "managed", utterly suppressed - by either a lockdown, a vaccine, or test & trace, the modeling is absolutely clear that it will be completely incapable of coping.
There are how ever many thousand icu places still free, even before you consider the new nightingale hospitals popping up all over the place. No one has had to be turned down. The London nightingale has had 41 patients last I saw.
You're literally like those people who were defending Cheltenham etc going ahead with their "only like, ten people have died, pfff, chill bruh" shtick. Those "nightingale hospitals" have been built exactly because of the scenario I've been outlining, and they will won't be sufficient according to the models.
There's no reason the overly draconian measures can't be relaxed somewhat, and have businesses that are able to do so operate with customer control measures like curbside or over counter services, and still maintain physical social distancing. (The thing that is actually helping.)
Overly draconian
I'm going to try and illustrate this in the starkest way that I can for you: Even Piers Morgan thinks the position you're advocating is irrational and immoral.
I sincerely beg you, go and read what the WHO are saying. What the professors behind the Imperial studies are saying. What Devi Sridhar(chair of public health at Edinburgh uni) and her colleagues are saying. Understand just how utterly isolated the point of view espoused by the leaders of the SAGE is, and how entirely out of step with the science your position is. Lifting the lockdown - once more, even partially - without either a vaccine or a functioning national test & trace system is the worst of all worlds. It will cost hundreds of thousands of lives, and worse, won't even achieve its supposed benefit of preventing economic problems.
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I need to acquire plastic Skavenslaves, can you help?
I have a blog now, evidently. Featuring the Alternative Mordheim Model Megalist.
"Your society's broken, so who should we blame? Should we blame the rich, powerful people who caused it? No, lets blame the people with no power and no money and those immigrants who don't even have the vote. Yea, it must be their fething fault." - Iain M Banks
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"The language of modern British politics is meant to sound benign. But words do not mean what they seem to mean. 'Reform' actually means 'cut' or 'end'. 'Flexibility' really means 'exploit'. 'Prudence' really means 'don't invest'. And 'efficient'? That means whatever you want it to mean, usually 'cut'. All really mean 'keep wages low for the masses, taxes low for the rich, profits high for the corporations, and accept the decline in public services and amenities this will cause'." - Robin McAlpine from Common Weal |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 18:26:19
Subject: Coronavirus
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Stealthy Warhound Titan Princeps
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Yodhrin, you really seem like the most hubristic person I've ever encountered, and I mean that sincerely. Between your proclamation that dissent from your own personal opinions is a signifier of sociopathy in the other thread, to your absolute certainty on the science of an unprecedented pandemic (from what is almost certainly the position of a layperson, correct me if I'm wrong), I'm honestly a bit impressed.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 18:32:27
Subject: Coronavirus
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc
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Grey Templar wrote:If health services get overwhelmed, we're not going to be as stuffed economy-wise as this total shutdown will cause. There would be enough unaffected people who would still be working and having income to keep the economy from total collapse, unlike what is going to happen if we don't open soon.
There is guaranteed danger, and far more potential deaths, from not reopening the economy than there is from opening the economy. We are already potentially heading for a global famine, which will kill exponentially more than COVID could if we'd done nothing.
The pandemic is causing famines, not lock downs. This is because funding is drying up for food aid due to the economic downturn.
It is simply untrue that that or economic devastation would be relieved by raising the lockdown:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/business/coronavirus-economy.html
...
Companies affected by the shutdowns say restarting the economy will not be that easy. So do a wide variety of economic and survey data, which suggest that the economy will recover slowly even after the government begins to ease limits on public gatherings and allow certain shuttered restaurants and shops to reopen.
The evidence suggests it is not just stay-at-home orders and other government restrictions that have chilled economic activity in the United States over the past month: It is also a behavioral response from workers and consumers scared of contracting the virus.
Data shows that unemployment claims rose and restaurant reservations vanished even before the lockdown orders hit, as nervous consumers retreated into their homes. And they show consumers are unlikely to return to airports, restaurants and sporting venues en masse any time soon.
Until Americans feel confident that their risks of contracting the coronavirus have fallen — either through widespread testing or a vaccine — many economists and business owners say there will be no rapid economic rebound.“You can’t just turn the light switch on and have everyone go back to work, as much as businesses would love to do that,” Suzanne Clark, the president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, said in an interview. “It’s going to be the opposite of a green light. It’s going to go from red to yellow and then green.”
“It would be good to get a yellow light from the president to reopen,” Ms. Clark said. “But then on the ground it’s going to matter, how safe do people feel?”
...
Still, many economists warn that rushing back toward normal life too quickly, without the safeguards needed to prevent a second wave of the outbreak, could simply worsen the economic damage that Mr. Trump is trying to fix. Re-infection rates climbed in China, Singapore and Hong Kongafter leaders eased strict economic restrictions that had initially slowed the virus’s spread. "States that haven’t yet closed businesses or put their populations on some sort of lockdown aren’t escaping enormous spikes in unemployment,” said Ernie Tedeschi, a managing director at Evercore ISI and a former Treasury Department economist. “The pain is not just deep, it’s wide. This punctuates that the fundamental problem with the economy right now is the pandemic.”
Mr. Tedeschi’s research underscores the degree to which Americans have suffered economic harm from the virus, no matter what form of restrictions their leaders have placed on business activity and travel.
Stay-at-home orders have not been evenly applied across America: Some states imposed them early, some imposed them later and some still have not imposed them at all. Yet all states have seen unemployment claims rise in recent weeks.
Mr. Tedeschi found the gap between more and less restrictive states — when comparing their normal levels of unemployment claims and current levels — has quickly narrowed. By the first week of April, claims were only about 23 percent higher in more restrictive states than less restrictive ones, adjusted for population.
Adam Ozimek, the chief economist at Upwork, found a similar pattern in restaurant reservation data from the online service OpenTable: declining activity even when restrictions were not in place. He plotted the drop in reservations made using the service across American cities and found the falloff began, typically, several days before local officials first imposed restrictions on dining out in their cities.
“How safe people perceive it to be,” Mr. Ozimek said, “matters independently from the shutdowns.”
Mr. Trump is set to establish a task force to examine when to begin lifting the restrictions that state and local officials have imposed on public gatherings and so-called nonessential businesses across the country.
A nationwide online survey by the data firm Civis Analytics over the past two weeks found more than eight in 10 Americans support restrictions on restaurant and gym openings, and nearly as many back “shelter in place” orders.
A survey last week by Seton Hall University found that seven in 10 Americans would not feel comfortable attending a sporting event until a vaccine for the virus was developed. New polling by the Sports and Leisure Research Group, Engagious and ROKK Solutions finds that only about a third of Americans would take a commercial flight, see a movie in a theater or visit a theme park now if they were allowed to do so. In follow-up interviews, respondents stressed two steps that would help them feel comfortable resuming those and other economic activities: reassurances from medical professionals and the development of a vaccine.
The drop in Americans’ plans to spend on travel and leisure activities in the next year drastically exceeds what similar polling found after the 2008 financial crisis and the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, said Jon Last, the president of the Sports and Leisure Research Group. “We are seeing people really hesitant to get back to normal,” he said.
“I’m scared to death, frankly, what our sales volume might be when we reopen,” Cameron Mitchell, an Ohio-based restaurateur, said in an interview last week.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce president, Ms. Clark, told members of the business advocacy group in a letter on Monday that “returning to work will be gradual” and phased in, and depend on a variety of developments across the country including additional access to testing of employees and the resolution of a wide range of legal liability issues in areas like employee health privacy.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/04/23 18:37:41
Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
2000 pts Imperial Fists
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
Tomb Kings 1500 points Sekhra (RIP) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 18:40:28
Subject: Coronavirus
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Yodhrin wrote:
But yeah, if someone's pitting a modest drop in standard of living(oh noes, poor middle class people won't be able to take a foreign holiday every single year sometimes twice? i weep  ) against hundreds of thousands of lives, I consider them to be a sociopath.
We're not talking about a modest drop in living standards. We're talking hundreds of millions of people losing their jobs and being unable to afford basic needs. Needs which the government could never afford because nobody can pay any taxes, plus collapse of agriculture leading to worldwide food shortages. A situation which could lead to not just hundreds of thousands of lives lost, but hundreds of millions of lives lost. Which would be a combination of economic collapse, famine, and violence stemming from those 2 previous causes.
It is infinitely better to take a known risk(maybe a few hundred thousand dead worldwide) vs the possibility of worldwide collapse that would lead the millions of dead.
Maybe you'd save your grandfather from dying to COVID, but its not worth it if it means millions of people starving to death fighting for scraps and recovery that could last over a century.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 18:42:43
Subject: Coronavirus
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The Conquerer
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
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Disciple of Fate wrote: Grey Templar wrote:If health services get overwhelmed, we're not going to be as stuffed economy-wise as this total shutdown will cause. There would be enough unaffected people who would still be working and having income to keep the economy from total collapse, unlike what is going to happen if we don't open soon.
There is guaranteed danger, and far more potential deaths, from not reopening the economy than there is from opening the economy. We are already potentially heading for a global famine, which will kill exponentially more than COVID could if we'd done nothing.
The pandemic is causing famines, not lock downs. This is because funding is drying up for food aid due to the economic downturn.
It is simply untrue that that or economic devastation would be relieved by raising the lockdown:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/business/coronavirus-economy.html
...
Companies affected by the shutdowns say restarting the economy will not be that easy. So do a wide variety of economic and survey data, which suggest that the economy will recover slowly even after the government begins to ease limits on public gatherings and allow certain shuttered restaurants and shops to reopen.
The evidence suggests it is not just stay-at-home orders and other government restrictions that have chilled economic activity in the United States over the past month: It is also a behavioral response from workers and consumers scared of contracting the virus.
Data shows that unemployment claims rose and restaurant reservations vanished even before the lockdown orders hit, as nervous consumers retreated into their homes. And they show consumers are unlikely to return to airports, restaurants and sporting venues en masse any time soon.
Until Americans feel confident that their risks of contracting the coronavirus have fallen — either through widespread testing or a vaccine — many economists and business owners say there will be no rapid economic rebound.“You can’t just turn the light switch on and have everyone go back to work, as much as businesses would love to do that,” Suzanne Clark, the president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, said in an interview. “It’s going to be the opposite of a green light. It’s going to go from red to yellow and then green.”
“It would be good to get a yellow light from the president to reopen,” Ms. Clark said. “But then on the ground it’s going to matter, how safe do people feel?”
...
Still, many economists warn that rushing back toward normal life too quickly, without the safeguards needed to prevent a second wave of the outbreak, could simply worsen the economic damage that Mr. Trump is trying to fix. Re-infection rates climbed in China, Singapore and Hong Kongafter leaders eased strict economic restrictions that had initially slowed the virus’s spread. "States that haven’t yet closed businesses or put their populations on some sort of lockdown aren’t escaping enormous spikes in unemployment,” said Ernie Tedeschi, a managing director at Evercore ISI and a former Treasury Department economist. “The pain is not just deep, it’s wide. This punctuates that the fundamental problem with the economy right now is the pandemic.”
Mr. Tedeschi’s research underscores the degree to which Americans have suffered economic harm from the virus, no matter what form of restrictions their leaders have placed on business activity and travel.
Stay-at-home orders have not been evenly applied across America: Some states imposed them early, some imposed them later and some still have not imposed them at all. Yet all states have seen unemployment claims rise in recent weeks.
Mr. Tedeschi found the gap between more and less restrictive states — when comparing their normal levels of unemployment claims and current levels — has quickly narrowed. By the first week of April, claims were only about 23 percent higher in more restrictive states than less restrictive ones, adjusted for population.
Adam Ozimek, the chief economist at Upwork, found a similar pattern in restaurant reservation data from the online service OpenTable: declining activity even when restrictions were not in place. He plotted the drop in reservations made using the service across American cities and found the falloff began, typically, several days before local officials first imposed restrictions on dining out in their cities.
“How safe people perceive it to be,” Mr. Ozimek said, “matters independently from the shutdowns.”
Mr. Trump is set to establish a task force to examine when to begin lifting the restrictions that state and local officials have imposed on public gatherings and so-called nonessential businesses across the country.
A nationwide online survey by the data firm Civis Analytics over the past two weeks found more than eight in 10 Americans support restrictions on restaurant and gym openings, and nearly as many back “shelter in place” orders.
A survey last week by Seton Hall University found that seven in 10 Americans would not feel comfortable attending a sporting event until a vaccine for the virus was developed. New polling by the Sports and Leisure Research Group, Engagious and ROKK Solutions finds that only about a third of Americans would take a commercial flight, see a movie in a theater or visit a theme park now if they were allowed to do so. In follow-up interviews, respondents stressed two steps that would help them feel comfortable resuming those and other economic activities: reassurances from medical professionals and the development of a vaccine.
The drop in Americans’ plans to spend on travel and leisure activities in the next year drastically exceeds what similar polling found after the 2008 financial crisis and the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, said Jon Last, the president of the Sports and Leisure Research Group. “We are seeing people really hesitant to get back to normal,” he said.
“I’m scared to death, frankly, what our sales volume might be when we reopen,” Cameron Mitchell, an Ohio-based restaurateur, said in an interview last week.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce president, Ms. Clark, told members of the business advocacy group in a letter on Monday that “returning to work will be gradual” and phased in, and depend on a variety of developments across the country including additional access to testing of employees and the resolution of a wide range of legal liability issues in areas like employee health privacy.
...
All that means is that damage has already been done. But its not too late to prevent more damage from being done. Its the difference between a mere recession or depression and permanent societal collapse.
If we keep the economy closed for several more months there won't be an economy left to reopen.
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Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
MURICA!!! IN SPESS!!! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 18:49:12
Subject: Coronavirus
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc
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Grey Templar wrote: Disciple of Fate wrote: Grey Templar wrote:If health services get overwhelmed, we're not going to be as stuffed economy-wise as this total shutdown will cause. There would be enough unaffected people who would still be working and having income to keep the economy from total collapse, unlike what is going to happen if we don't open soon.
There is guaranteed danger, and far more potential deaths, from not reopening the economy than there is from opening the economy. We are already potentially heading for a global famine, which will kill exponentially more than COVID could if we'd done nothing.
The pandemic is causing famines, not lock downs. This is because funding is drying up for food aid due to the economic downturn.
It is simply untrue that that or economic devastation would be relieved by raising the lockdown:
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/13/business/coronavirus-economy.html
...
Companies affected by the shutdowns say restarting the economy will not be that easy. So do a wide variety of economic and survey data, which suggest that the economy will recover slowly even after the government begins to ease limits on public gatherings and allow certain shuttered restaurants and shops to reopen.
The evidence suggests it is not just stay-at-home orders and other government restrictions that have chilled economic activity in the United States over the past month: It is also a behavioral response from workers and consumers scared of contracting the virus.
Data shows that unemployment claims rose and restaurant reservations vanished even before the lockdown orders hit, as nervous consumers retreated into their homes. And they show consumers are unlikely to return to airports, restaurants and sporting venues en masse any time soon.
Until Americans feel confident that their risks of contracting the coronavirus have fallen — either through widespread testing or a vaccine — many economists and business owners say there will be no rapid economic rebound.“You can’t just turn the light switch on and have everyone go back to work, as much as businesses would love to do that,” Suzanne Clark, the president of the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, said in an interview. “It’s going to be the opposite of a green light. It’s going to go from red to yellow and then green.”
“It would be good to get a yellow light from the president to reopen,” Ms. Clark said. “But then on the ground it’s going to matter, how safe do people feel?”
...
Still, many economists warn that rushing back toward normal life too quickly, without the safeguards needed to prevent a second wave of the outbreak, could simply worsen the economic damage that Mr. Trump is trying to fix. Re-infection rates climbed in China, Singapore and Hong Kongafter leaders eased strict economic restrictions that had initially slowed the virus’s spread. "States that haven’t yet closed businesses or put their populations on some sort of lockdown aren’t escaping enormous spikes in unemployment,” said Ernie Tedeschi, a managing director at Evercore ISI and a former Treasury Department economist. “The pain is not just deep, it’s wide. This punctuates that the fundamental problem with the economy right now is the pandemic.”
Mr. Tedeschi’s research underscores the degree to which Americans have suffered economic harm from the virus, no matter what form of restrictions their leaders have placed on business activity and travel.
Stay-at-home orders have not been evenly applied across America: Some states imposed them early, some imposed them later and some still have not imposed them at all. Yet all states have seen unemployment claims rise in recent weeks.
Mr. Tedeschi found the gap between more and less restrictive states — when comparing their normal levels of unemployment claims and current levels — has quickly narrowed. By the first week of April, claims were only about 23 percent higher in more restrictive states than less restrictive ones, adjusted for population.
Adam Ozimek, the chief economist at Upwork, found a similar pattern in restaurant reservation data from the online service OpenTable: declining activity even when restrictions were not in place. He plotted the drop in reservations made using the service across American cities and found the falloff began, typically, several days before local officials first imposed restrictions on dining out in their cities.
“How safe people perceive it to be,” Mr. Ozimek said, “matters independently from the shutdowns.”
Mr. Trump is set to establish a task force to examine when to begin lifting the restrictions that state and local officials have imposed on public gatherings and so-called nonessential businesses across the country.
A nationwide online survey by the data firm Civis Analytics over the past two weeks found more than eight in 10 Americans support restrictions on restaurant and gym openings, and nearly as many back “shelter in place” orders.
A survey last week by Seton Hall University found that seven in 10 Americans would not feel comfortable attending a sporting event until a vaccine for the virus was developed. New polling by the Sports and Leisure Research Group, Engagious and ROKK Solutions finds that only about a third of Americans would take a commercial flight, see a movie in a theater or visit a theme park now if they were allowed to do so. In follow-up interviews, respondents stressed two steps that would help them feel comfortable resuming those and other economic activities: reassurances from medical professionals and the development of a vaccine.
The drop in Americans’ plans to spend on travel and leisure activities in the next year drastically exceeds what similar polling found after the 2008 financial crisis and the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, said Jon Last, the president of the Sports and Leisure Research Group. “We are seeing people really hesitant to get back to normal,” he said.
“I’m scared to death, frankly, what our sales volume might be when we reopen,” Cameron Mitchell, an Ohio-based restaurateur, said in an interview last week.
The U.S. Chamber of Commerce president, Ms. Clark, told members of the business advocacy group in a letter on Monday that “returning to work will be gradual” and phased in, and depend on a variety of developments across the country including additional access to testing of employees and the resolution of a wide range of legal liability issues in areas like employee health privacy.
...
All that means is that damage has already been done. But its not too late to prevent more damage from being done. Its the difference between a mere recession or depression and permanent societal collapse.
If we keep the economy closed for several more months there won't be an economy left to reopen.
This makes zero sense unless you ignore this part:
the gap between more and less restrictive states — when comparing their normal levels of unemployment claims and current levels — has quickly narrowed. By the first week of April, claims were only about 23 percent higher in more restrictive states than less restrictive ones, adjusted for population.
It clearly points out severe economic decline that is only partly attributable to lock down restrictions. The problem is that the economy runs on consumer confidence and a pandemic destroys that, yes reopening the economy helps alleviate some of the downturn, but as a second spike happens the economy will just collapse again. The stock market started its collapse days before the NY spike and lock down...
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Sorry for my spelling. I'm not a native speaker and a dyslexic.
1750 pts Blood Specters
2000 pts Imperial Fists
6000 pts Disciples of Fate
3500 pts Peridia Prime
2500 pts Prophets of Fate
Lizardmen 3000 points Tlaxcoatl Temple-City
Tomb Kings 1500 points Sekhra (RIP) |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2020/04/23 18:50:25
Subject: Coronavirus
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[DCM]
Dankhold Troggoth
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I think easing of some restrictions doesn't have to mean a complete re-opening of things, and even things that do open, should obviously still be practicing social distancing and the like as much as possible. There's middle ground to be had here... sometimes it's hard to find that in a format like this, though
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