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It's probably torpedoed tons of fines handed out for breaking lockdown, so I imagine you're glad it's hit the news hard for that reason, if nothing else?
Hancock has just said that yes, they may well have to revisit and revise fines handed out to people traveling.
Literally retrospectively changing legal penalties to protect an advisor.
To be fair, given the haste it was written and implemented, the uneven enforcement and the wooly nature of the legislation, this was always going to happen, it's just by forcing an MP to mention it now it stokes the fire that but more.
There would have been some challenged and overturned, but few would have had the money to pursue it. A slim chance of forgiveness several years down the line. There absolutely would not have been a dismissal like is now on the cards.
You don't need loads of money to pursue a FPN dude, it isn't something you'll need to engage a QC for.
It typically goes in front of the local magistrate and you don't even need to be there, let alone a solicitor.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 17:45:58
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
It's probably torpedoed tons of fines handed out for breaking lockdown, so I imagine you're glad it's hit the news hard for that reason, if nothing else?
Hancock has just said that yes, they may well have to revisit and revise fines handed out to people traveling.
Literally retrospectively changing legal penalties to protect an advisor.
To be fair, given the haste it was written and implemented, the uneven enforcement and the wooly nature of the legislation, this was always going to happen, it's just by forcing an MP to mention it now it stokes the fire that but more.
There would have been some challenged and overturned, but few would have had the money to pursue it. A slim chance of forgiveness several years down the line. There absolutely would not have been a dismissal like is now on the cards.
You don't need loads of money to pursue a FPN dude, it isn't something you'll need to engage a QC for.
It typically goes in front of the local magistrate and you don't even need to be there, let alone a solicitor.
Depends on the offence, but in many cases you are basically guaranteed to be found at fault and issued with a significantly increased fine if you haven't been represented. Insofar as I'm aware, lockdown fines haven't been tested in court yet. Of course, the number of people who even challenge any FPN that isn't a speeding fine is vanishingly small. That's why they work.
This has absolutely saved loads of people money. And decided tomorrows headlines when I imagine many papers were struggling to find their Cummings story. Derailing Cummings' own lockdown messaging further.
So much for the Prince of Predicting Public Opinion.
Depends on the offence, but in many cases you are basically guaranteed to be found at fault and issued with a significantly increased fine if you haven't been represented.
Well I guess I got lucky.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'm not sure about a second wave. again, I'm no virologist but those predictions seem to have a basis in influenza, not coronaviruses.
So far coronaviridae associated with the influenza like-like illness display seasonal circulation and like other agents such as rhinoviridae and influenza are causes of influenza-like illness. Different types of coronaviruses coexist in most winter seasons in countries such as the UK, and the current outbreak is associated with latitude and COVID deaths and cases in the Northern Hemisphere. However, MERs is mainly associated with contacts with camels and SARs 2002-03 has not been identified since.
Higher temperatures likely affect the survival of SARs-CoV-2. As a consequence, those countries with higher temperature and higher relative humidity might have found it easier to manage the outbreak for this reason. However, while most major outbreaks have appeared within a narrow temperature band there have not been similar outbreaks in some countries with the same temperature bands. The reasons for this disparity are not currently clear.
COVID – ‘wave’ or sporadic outbreaks?
The theory of pandemics is murky. The best known is the cyclical theory based on influenza occurrence. This foresees cycles of infection when the natural immunity to the previous agent dies out with the passing away of survivors. This cycle up until recently was thought to span 70 years approximately. However, this theory does not fit all the evidence and the rise of other microbiological agents such as coronaviridae imposes a radical rethink and proper investigation of the ecology of the lesser-known respiratory agents.
The disappearance of a respiratory virus for decades with a sudden reappearance, in some cases virtually unchanged requires serious investigation. Meanwhile, the chaotic nature of epidemics and their consequent disruption should lead us to be cautious about forecasting the future.
We do not know for certain whether COVID will recur in phases, or sporadic outbreaks or disappear altogether.
Conclusion
Making absolute statements of certainty about ‘ second waves’ is unwise, given the current substantial uncertainties and novelty of the evidence. As we cannot see the future and our understanding of this new agent is in its infancy we think preparedness planning should be inspired by robust surveillance, the flexibility of response and rigid separation of suspected or confirmed cases. These measures should stand for all serious outbreaks of respiratory illness.
No one seems to have a coherent agreement on whether its likely to be seasonal or not. So I gues all we can do is wait out.
Um, we have known for a while it is not seasonal. Also, Wuhan is in another outbreak of it right now in China. Are you ignoring that? Because that is literally evidence of a second wave.
Um, we have known for a while it is not seasonal. Also, Wuhan is in another outbreak of it right now in China. Are you ignoring that? Because that is literally evidence of a second wave.
So why are people talking about it coming back in winter? I agree. it doesnt seem seasonal. but people keep talking about winter spikes.
Um, we have known for a while it is not seasonal. Also, Wuhan is in another outbreak of it right now in China. Are you ignoring that? Because that is literally evidence of a second wave.
So why are people talking about it coming back in winter? I agree. it doesnt seem seasonal. but people keep talking about winter spikes.
Probably because winter brings less sunlight and colder weather. In general it debilitates people a bit more than summer. So any infection has a higher chance of taking hold.
Plus it gets cold so people want to spend more time indoors, which means if you've relaxed lockdowns there's going to be a higher percentage of people wanting to be indoors with the option to be indoors. So the infection gets even more chance to spread around.
In germany I hear they are making vaccine compulsory, if you don't take it you don't get a "pass" and that pass is needed to apply for jobs and other things. Other countries will probably do the same. Also parents will face fines if they don't let their children take the vaccine. Germany already do this with the measles vaccine in regards to school kids. We aren't sure yet if there's any plans to forcibly administer e.g allow police to use force to remove people from their homes etc, which some people are calling for.
Probably because winter brings less sunlight and colder weather. In general it debilitates people a bit more than summer. So any infection has a higher chance of taking hold.
Plus it gets cold so people want to spend more time indoors, which means if you've relaxed lockdowns there's going to be a higher percentage of people wanting to be indoors with the option to be indoors. So the infection gets even more chance to spread around.
Is that not what seasonal is? If it isn't then what are the characteristics of a seasonal disease?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 21:05:42
The Regulator wrote: In germany I hear they are making vaccine compulsory, if you don't take it you don't get a "pass" and that pass is needed to apply for jobs and other things. Other countries will probably do the same. Also parents will face fines if they don't let their children take the vaccine. Germany already do this with the measles vaccine in regards to school kids. We aren't sure yet if there's any plans to forcibly administer e.g allow police to use force to remove people from their homes etc, which some people are calling for.
Source? Because this sounds like literal fake news.
I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy.
I don't see the problem of making them compulsory.
You want to be part of modern society? Fine, do when needs to be done.
You wanna not take the vaccine, also fine, have fun living off the grid because no one will hire you
My job required me to have all my vaccines up to date. I don't see a problem.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't see the problem of making them compulsory.
You want to be part of modern society? Fine, do when needs to be done.
You wanna not take the vaccine, also fine, have fun living off the grid because no one will hire you
My job required me to have all my vaccines up to date. I don't see a problem.
Tbf with the caveat that you don't have to if you Fall under groups with expectable adverse effects from it (Chemo patients, etc.)
That is literally no diffrent except it's worse due to the government beeing alot more bound by procedure and therefore a lot less arbitrary.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/26 21:44:23
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
hotsauceman1 wrote: I don't see the problem of making them compulsory.
You want to be part of modern society? Fine, do when needs to be done.
You wanna not take the vaccine, also fine, have fun living off the grid because no one will hire you
My job required me to have all my vaccines up to date. I don't see a problem.
You get that what you're saying isn't "making them compulsory" right?
What you're describing is strongly encouraging people to do so by limiting their civil freedoms if they choose not to, while also allowing them the right to accept the limitations and not have a vaccine.
Compulsory vaccination could ultimately look like what the Regulator (somewhat dubiously) alluded to which would be physically restrained while the vaccine was administered against your will.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
I'd rather not have any aspect of bodily autonomy mandated by government, barring voluntary situations of people's choosing(I have to have most vaccines for work) anthrax was optional.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: I'd rather not have any aspect of bodily autonomy mandated by government, barring voluntary situations of people's choosing(I have to have most vaccines for work) anthrax was optional.
But you are fine when a private entity you have even less power over Mandates something Like that?
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
But yes, they can have a list of vaccines required for the job. Applicants can decide whether they want to take them. If they don't, they're ineligible. That's the companies right. I'd rather have that than give the government any arbitrary say over people's bodily autonomy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 21:51:55
But yes, they can have a list of vaccines required for the job. Applicants can decide whether they want to take them. If they don't, they're ineligible. That's the companies right. I'd rather have that than give the government any arbitrary say over people's bodily autonomy.
Sorry to say this but ,if any Institution in a Country/society has any right over the Body of it's people then that has to be the Institution with the monopoly of force , legitimizing that via structures and avoidance Of abuse/ accountability and trust , and NOT some random company..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/26 21:58:08
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Well, I respectfully disagree. I believe in limited government as far as reasonably practicable.
I think giving them that power would be a dangerous precedent.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Well, I respectfully disagree. I believe in limited government as far as reasonably practicable.
I think giving them that power would be a dangerous precedent.
But we're digressing somewhat.
The government has by virtue of existing allready that power.
The limiting factor comes with the fact that we can hold it actually acountable and decide therefore ultimately if it is legitimate in ruling over us or not.
Unlike companies, especially monopolistic ones Like walmart or Amazon or google for which we allready can See why they shouldn't period get any and all say in such matters
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/05/26 22:04:09
https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/766717.page A Mostly Renegades and Heretics blog.
GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
Edit. Actually, I'm wrong. The government here just made organ donation mandatory for all adults with an opt out scheme. Which I'm also opposed to.
Eh its a casual way to boost organ donations, especially since a lot of potentially willing donors won't even consider the question until they are at death's door; by which point their mind set might not be in the right place to agree or they might be incapable of giving a response. Shifting it from automatic refusal to acceptance basically releases a lot of organs that would likely have entered the system anyway if people were more forward thinking about such matters. Making it opt out works better for society in general; you can freely opt out on any grounds you want (religious, moral, just don't want too etc...)
Edit. Actually, I'm wrong. The government here just made organ donation mandatory for all adults with an opt out scheme. Which I'm also opposed to.
Eh its a casual way to boost organ donations, especially since a lot of potentially willing donors won't even consider the question until they are at death's door; by which point their mind set might not be in the right place to agree or they might be incapable of giving a response. Shifting it from automatic refusal to acceptance basically releases a lot of organs that would likely have entered the system anyway if people were more forward thinking about such matters. Making it opt out works better for society in general; you can freely opt out on any grounds you want (religious, moral, just don't want too etc...)
Tbf such decisions and debates even within family rarely show up.
How often did i hear from Families not sure on stopping liveprolonging meassures etc.
And we have it actually good in regards to selfdetermination in the european Context what with Exit etc .
Edit. Actually, I'm wrong. The government here just made organ donation mandatory for all adults with an opt out scheme. Which I'm also opposed to.
Eh its a casual way to boost organ donations, especially since a lot of potentially willing donors won't even consider the question until they are at death's door; by which point their mind set might not be in the right place to agree or they might be incapable of giving a response. Shifting it from automatic refusal to acceptance basically releases a lot of organs that would likely have entered the system anyway if people were more forward thinking about such matters. Making it opt out works better for society in general; you can freely opt out on any grounds you want (religious, moral, just don't want too etc...)
Opt out also works psychologically. A lot of people don't even care too much about it but having to opt in creates a little mental barrier and we tend to stay on the save/default side of such choice where we aren't exactly sure. It is good for society but it feels odd to let them take "parts" off you (I read that people are especially creeped out by the idea of their eyes/cornea being removed). By reversing it (opt out scheme) you essentially make it work for that huge undecided group that tends to stay with the default option while those who actually don't want it get to opt out.
The Regulator wrote: In germany I hear they are making vaccine compulsory, if you don't take it you don't get a "pass" and that pass is needed to apply for jobs and other things. Other countries will probably do the same. Also parents will face fines if they don't let their children take the vaccine. Germany already do this with the measles vaccine in regards to school kids. We aren't sure yet if there's any plans to forcibly administer e.g allow police to use force to remove people from their homes etc, which some people are calling for.
Source? Because this sounds like literal fake news.
Source that the USA Supreme Court have previously allowed compulsory Smallpox vaccination in 1905, rejecting the argument that it infringes on ones civil liberty:
"power of a local community to protect itself against an epidemic threatening the safety of all might be exercised in particular circumstances and in reference to particular persons in such an arbitrary, unreasonable manner, or might go so far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public, as to authorize or compel the courts to interfere for the protection of such persons." - Supreme Court
I agree with Queen Annes Revenge views on this matter. So far the voice of reason.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/05/26 22:55:48
Yeah, while all this is going awfully offtopic, in an attempt to somewhat bring it back, I notice that a lot of people seem to miss that this was a fairly quickly occurring worldwide outbreak.
A crisis like that is by nature very chaotic at its outset, and if you wait for all the data to come in to decide on a measured response - you're too late. When gak hits the fan, those in charge need to make a decision how to handle it, quickly, and it needs to be clear to everyone. By its very nature, such an initial response cannot be subtle. And obviously once data does start to pour in, modifications to a more measured response can and should be made, but that does not necessarily invalidate the initial response and will take time to work out and implement.
A number of (predominantly) western governments have failed utterly in that respect.
Somewhat more related and in contrast to the British government advisor's ill-advised actions (to put it mildly), our prime minister's mother has died last week; she was 96 and already doing poorly. Our prime minister, to his credit, had not visited her weekly as he used to before the crisis hit for months, although I believe he did visit her on her deathbed (she didn't die of corona), for which I would not fault anybody even if it had been corona. In our case, very much not "do as I say, not as I do".
So yeah, while I disagree with the man vehemently on politics, I have nothing but respect for the way he handled this whole thing from the outset, and for the moral fibre he showed here.
The Regulator wrote: In germany I hear they are making vaccine compulsory, if you don't take it you don't get a "pass" and that pass is needed to apply for jobs and other things. Other countries will probably do the same. Also parents will face fines if they don't let their children take the vaccine. Germany already do this with the measles vaccine in regards to school kids. We aren't sure yet if there's any plans to forcibly administer e.g allow police to use force to remove people from their homes etc, which some people are calling for.
Source? Because this sounds like literal fake news.
Source that the USA Supreme Court have previously allowed compulsory Smallpox vaccination in 1905, rejecting the argument that it infringes on ones civil liberty:
"power of a local community to protect itself against an epidemic threatening the safety of all might be exercised in particular circumstances and in reference to particular persons in such an arbitrary, unreasonable manner, or might go so far beyond what was reasonably required for the safety of the public, as to authorize or compel the courts to interfere for the protection of such persons." - Supreme Court
I agree with Queen Annes Revenge views on this matter. So far the voice of reason.
And none of that addresses the "they'll take your childrenz!" rightwing talking point.
Also nothing in there about jobs or needing the vaccine to be employed.
So other than being about vaccination - which many countries require, what exactly substantiates your rambling?
I prefer to buy from miniature manufacturers that *don't* support the overthrow of democracy.
But yes, they can have a list of vaccines required for the job. Applicants can decide whether they want to take them. If they don't, they're ineligible. That's the companies right. I'd rather have that than give the government any arbitrary say over people's bodily autonomy.
Are you ok with the government enforcing people wearing seatbelts in cars?
While it's all well and good to say 'Let people do their own research, and choose for themselves!' the simple fact is that the vast majority of people don't actually have the ability to do that research effectively. And then we wind up with a bunch of people who saw a YouTube video or an Instagram post claiming that vaccines contain microscopic robots, or give you autism, or are part of a secret plot to wipe out half of the world's population, or have chemicals in them, decide for some inexplicable reason that this is more credible than the advice of actual medical professionals (you know, on account of them all being on the payroll of Big Pharma - I saw it on Twitter, so it must be true!) and make the wrong choice.
Unfortunately, people sometimes need to be protected from their own ignorance, both for their own good and for the good of the people who have to share their living space.
And none of that addresses the "they'll take your childrenz!" rightwing talking point.
Also nothing in there about jobs or needing the vaccine to be employed.
So other than being about vaccination - which many countries require, what exactly substantiates your rambling?
I'm just saying that in Germany a COVID vaccine may become compulsory like measles and face masks already are, and that will most likely be implemented in other parts of europe. I'm sorry that the source isn't good enough I couldn't find the exact article I had read but I'm sure you realise it's not a far-fetched notion.
I won't indulge in an argument regarding a political subject due to the forum rules. You thought it was fake news, and now you know it's possible. Authorities being given the power to do something doesn't necessarily mean they are going to act upon it like some kind of 40k dystopian arbiters, kicking down doors giving them 50ml of the good stuff. Though I have seen people calling for them to have this power.
If you have COVID-19 and are deemed a risk they already have the power to break in to your home and detain you, which is unlikely to happen, but that's not the point. There are a lot of people in this world (hypochondriacs mainly) who are very scared of COVID-19 and think it can kill a healthy person and will push for/accept this.
Forced vaccines is only a small part of the human rights debate, there's also compulsory track and trace is another matter. These are extremely dire times. It's not just the libertarian thing, it's also that people don't trust vaccines or medical experts.
Are you ok with the government enforcing people wearing seatbelts in cars?
Come on Ins that's not the same thing at all. People know the effect of a piece of fabric harnessing their body and can put trust in that. If you don't think that's logical for safety then everyone is going to disagree with you. Injections of liquids that may be deemed as mysterious to an individual is a different matter.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/05/26 23:44:30
Heresy World Eaters/Emperors Children 
5000pts 
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