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 Dreadwinter wrote:

So you think that while you are in a grocery store, going down the lanes properly, it is okay the break the distance rules? Because it seems to me that you think that the rules don't apply to you.

They aren't rules. They're guidelines. It's physically impossible to stay 2 metres/6 foot from all other people, at all times. There are times when you will come within that distance for short periods of time. Shopping is one of them.

 Dreadwinter wrote:

So you think that while you are in a grocery store, going down the lanes properly, it is okay the break the distance rules? Because it seems to me that you think that the rules don't apply to you.

Seems? That's what it is. Any rules that restrict him don't count. Basically he thinks he's law in itself.

Oh hey, I was missing your insights...

 Future War Cultist wrote:
We’re very slowly starting to return to normal, as heralded by the reopening of Ikea. Joking aside, cases are at very low numbers and I think the death rate is close to zero.

Things are certainly heading in the right direction. Media don't seem to be reporting it though. Granted, I'll give them a little leeway at the moment due to the other nonsense theyre having to cover.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
We’re very slowly starting to return to normal, as heralded by the reopening of Ikea. Joking aside, cases are at very low numbers and I think the death rate is close to zero.

Still pushing 2k new cases a day and more people died in the UK yesterday* than the EU27 combined.

*well, reported yesterday, presumably 24 hours to yesterday 9am or similar, only including positive tests.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Dreadwinter wrote:

So you think that while you are in a grocery store, going down the lanes properly, it is okay the break the distance rules? Because it seems to me that you think that the rules don't apply to you.

They aren't rules. They're guidelines. It's physically impossible to stay 2 metres/6 foot from all other people, at all times. There are times when you will come within that distance for short periods of time. Shopping is one of them.

Ah, right right. Often times when I go on to other peoples property with warning signs explaining the rule... I mean "guidelines", I completely ignore them and forget that it is possible for everybody to stay 6 ft apart by simply following them and not throwing my hands up in the air and saying "THIS IS IMPOSSIBLY" for no reason.

Hey, next time you are at the grocery store and you are zipping around and you see somebody in an aisle. Wait. Move along as they move. Observe the distance rule. It is that simple. They teach it to children in schools.

Reporting differs across the eu. There are rumours that Italy has around 6-12k deaths that are missing or hidden in the system somewhere or other. Like you yourself say, it's excess deaths that will be the most accurate yardstick here.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
We’re very slowly starting to return to normal, as heralded by the reopening of Ikea. Joking aside, cases are at very low numbers and I think the death rate is close to zero.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/uk/

UK is still in the region of 2K cases a day and several hundred deaths per day (probably somewhere around 200 since we get the weekend lull of around 100 then a spike up to around 300 for a few days after). It's possible you were hearing regional reports for death rate if you heard that on the news, not the national.


The big issue is that UK went into lockdown with only 50 odd cases a day, granted that was when we weren't detecting as well as we are now so the number was likely much higher; and the value was swinging upward fast not downward; but still we are not anywhere near out of the woods.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Reporting differs across the eu. There are rumours that Italy has around 6-12k deaths that are missing or hidden in the system somewhere or other. Like you yourself say, it's excess deaths that will be the most accurate yardstick here.

Which, as I think I posted previously, we fair very, very badly in.

https://www.ft.com/content/6b4c784e-c259-4ca4-9a82-648ffde71bf0

I actually support what they are doing, but with the mass protests going on in the UK, with many more still to come, and god knows the impact in the US and other major countries, there's surely going to be a rebound of cases, hopefully with the average age of protesters it won't be too bad and/or maybe a lot already have anti-bodies but I hope they have the common sense to isolate and/or not visit friends or family in the coming weeks, especially those most vulnerable.

Slightly off topic, I'm very tempted to join the protests today myself in my home city (Birmingham, UK), though after the degeneration of the protests into violence last night in London, mostly targeting police I am concerned Police will be not only out in force, but quite riled up, heavy handed and overzealous. It could potentially get quite nasty this evening. On a whole police have got better in this country, but they are far far far from perfect and make mistakes, and I'd argue there is still mass intuitional racism within the service (like any government affiliated organisation and department). At times like this, those small mistakes can escalate, especially in a city with a huge BAME community that (quite justifiably in my opinion) distrust police, and who are very very very angry currently.

I'm also sure there will be selfish A***hole looters and anarchists out tonight as well.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Reporting differs across the eu. There are rumours that Italy has around 6-12k deaths that are missing or hidden in the system somewhere or other. Like you yourself say, it's excess deaths that will be the most accurate yardstick here.

And UK is hiding deaths. Even up to 40% higher than reported. So some 15k or so deaths missing.

Are they missing deaths or the difference between Corona confirmed/suspected and the total number of excess deaths compared to the average? If so then its not so much hidden as just not directly attributed to corona stats. The average death disparity gets widely reported in the media.


Missing would imply the data isn't even making it into the total reported deaths. Which does happen since there is a lag-time but that data does seem to enter the system fairly faithfully. There was certainly issues with hidden numbers when the UK Corona stats didn't inclue outside of hospital deaths.

endlesswaltz123 wrote:
I actually support what they are doing, but with the mass protests going on in the UK, with many more still to come, and god knows the impact in the US and other major countries, there's surely going to be a rebound of cases, hopefully with the average age of protesters it won't be too bad and/or maybe a lot already have anti-bodies but I hope they have the common sense to isolate and/or not visit friends or family in the coming weeks, especially those most vulnerable.

Don't count on antibodies. Spain has been ravaged pretty badly by the virus. Antibodies have been found on just few % of population...

tneva82 wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Reporting differs across the eu. There are rumours that Italy has around 6-12k deaths that are missing or hidden in the system somewhere or other. Like you yourself say, it's excess deaths that will be the most accurate yardstick here.

And UK is hiding deaths. Even up to 40% higher than reported. So some 15k or so deaths missing.

We have most of those numbers. They're about two weeks delayed. 62,000 excess deaths as of May 22, 50,000 with COVID-19 as a contributor/cause.

It is easily possible to maintain 2m separation in supermarkets, it just requires a bit of selfless consideration for your fellow shoppers.

Put simply, you follow a one-way system where it is necessary to have one. You don't advance past someone in front of you who is choosing goods. If you are the one choosing, you don't hang about for hours, because you're blocking the people behind you. You make sure you arrive with an organised list to get everything you need efficiently and quickly.

The store needs to keep the number of people inside under 60 or whatever the capacity may be, by a careful one out, one in system. They also need to ensure the tills are well staffed so people can pay and go as quickly as possible.

Every supermarket I've been to during the lockdown has fairly quickly got this system into action except Lidl, so I don't go there any more.

Every supermarket has also contained a small number of people, who seem incapable of following these simple rules.

I was actually talking about Ireland, and Ireland as a whole.

 Future War Cultist wrote:
I was actually talking about Ireland, and Ireland as a whole.

Fair enough. Assumed UK on the basis of the flag.

Ahh your country flag says UK

I'm not going to wait behind someone in a supermarket aisle when I can just walk past them. I'm also not going to endlessly traipse around a one way system if I don't need items from the majority of those aisles. I don't need the minutiae of my life dictated to me by these places. I'm an adult, capable of applying common sense.

That's pretty distinct from it being physically impossible.

I use common sense, because its physically impossible. one necessitates the other.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I'm not going to wait behind someone in a supermarket aisle when I can just walk past them. I'm also not going to endlessly traipse around a one way system if I don't need items from the majority of those aisles. I don't need the minutiae of my life dictated to me by these places. I'm an adult, capable of applying common sense.

not only have you completely contradicted yourself in this one post, also the fact that people are having to explain basic instructions to you would say otherwise

 Kilkrazy wrote:
It is easily possible to maintain 2m separation in supermarkets, it just requires a bit of selfless consideration for your fellow shoppers.

it's funny, I was going to post something about "ah, the missing ingredient" - but then he said the quiet part out loud!

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I'm not going to wait behind someone in a supermarket aisle when I can just walk past them.

I mean, how do you respond to that? I dunno if this is Poe's law, or if anyone can genuinely be this self-centered - but either way, impressive show.

Tneva nailed this guy right from the beginning. just as he reiterated above.


Anyway - at my job, we also have the arrows in the hallways, which is well meaning but maybe a little misplaced: at the moment my department is the only one essential enough to be working on-site, and even then, we're only having 2 people onsite at a time - so the entire building, all 5 floors, only has 2 people in it. Seems like a bit of a waste of time to have had maintenance mark off the whole building - but perhaps it will persist even for a while as we phase in people returning to the site.

What really irritates me is that they also are funneling people into the same entrances and exits - there are I think 5 entrances/exits and again, I sort of understand what they are trying to do - but making everyone come in the same entrance and exist the same exit seems counterproductive and in fact the very opposite probably should have been the mandate.

 mekkiah wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I'm not going to wait behind someone in a supermarket aisle when I can just walk past them. I'm also not going to endlessly traipse around a one way system if I don't need items from the majority of those aisles. I don't need the minutiae of my life dictated to me by these places. I'm an adult, capable of applying common sense.

not only have you completely contradicted yourself in this one post, also the fact that people are having to explain basic instructions to you would say otherwise

Sure.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I use common sense, because its physically impossible. one necessitates the other.

X is impossible.
It's possible if you do Y.
I don't want to do that.

Except everyday life doesn't work using just your pure logic does it? when we're trying to get people round and out of supermarkets as quickly as possible, we should all wait behind the (all due respect) old man who moves at a snails pace, or the parent trying to keep control of their child, and proceed round the shop in a big snake. The people outside can wait even longer. Sod them. Honestly...

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Except everyday life doesn't work using just your pure logic does it? when we're trying to get people round and out of supermarkets as quickly as possible

This isn't a universally agreed upon goal; and most people seem able to work with normal societal expectations of shopping with consideration during trying times - even when that means we're not grabbing bread and milk like we're doing a pit stop and we're behind;

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
we should all wait behind the (all due respect) old man who moves at a snails pace

Yes, some of us - maybe even most of us - are willing to perform what is a tiny, easily accomplished accomodation in the effort to try and avoid infecting an old person who just needs groceries to live with an illness that could be a death sentence;

(snip)

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Sod them. Honestly...

I wish you had just posted this right up front at the beginning of the thread and saved a lot of time for everyone involved, because every single one of your posts has orbited this core idea, and even if I ignore you, most people are quoting the short-sighted, selfish, awful things you say here in a futile attempt to rebut them, and so I have to read them anyway. So, no point.

Anyway, perhaps being more honest and up front about your me-at-all-costs philosophy would have saved us all some noise.

At this point, if people can't/won't use the actual "Ignore" function, they could just actually ignore posts from people who have already 100% stated their position on things and are clearly not going to move a millimeter off of it...no matter what.

The Civil Unrest in the USA is actually making it difficult to get reports on the state of Covid-19 here.

I've no doubt it is on the way up in many places - especially where large crowds are gathering and shouting and singing and being gassed, but numbers are hard to come by.

 Alpharius wrote:
At this point, if people can't/won't use the actual "Ignore" function, they could just actually ignore posts from people who have already 100% stated their position on things and are clearly not going to move a millimeter off of it...no matter what.

The Civil Unrest in the USA is actually making it difficult to get reports on the state of Covid-19 here.

I've no doubt it is on the way up in many places - especially where large crowds are gathering and shouting and singing and being gassed, but numbers are hard to come by.

There’s going to be a horrible spike over there I’m sure of it.

I wonder about that - the big spike. I was sure there would be big spikes in Georgia and Florida, when they reopened, but by and large those things thankfully do not seem to have really happened.

edit: on the other hand, just because places have reopened doesn't mean the general public is participating, I suppose. I saw an article that indicated parts of Georgia remain utterly devoid of shoppers, which is one explanation of why the expected spike didn't occur. I imagine there are other explanations as well.

Depending how places open up, if you've got people shopping at 2m apart; wearing masks; washing hands; not coughing on each other etc... Then chances are spikes might not happen as fast as we expect.


Another aspect is that the spike will get drawn out instead of rising superfast.

Where we are seeing spikes rise much faster is when things like schools come back online - populations that are kept inside in enclosed spaces for prolonged periods of time and are more likely to breach social distancing on more occasions and with less awareness etc...