Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The return to parliament of MPs in the UK this week has had the expected result of something looking like a scene from a dysoptian sci-fi, MP Alok Sharma suffering the effects of Covid when speaking and dabbing his forehead.

The problem is now that the gov can either back down, acknowledging that it's not possible for MPs to attend safely in person currently, or they can ignore what has happened, carry on and further undermine any remaining effort to try and convince people to continue socially distancing (which has already taken a massive knock). As the return to the House of Commons was utterly unnecessary and just politically motivated because Johnson has been getting roasted by Kier Starmer, unfortunately I don't hold any high hopes that they will follow the prudent course here.

Re. the ongoing protests, putting aside for one moment the social issues behind them, I fear that it will make the infection rate spike up again once more. That many people crammed together, masks and hand gel or not, is going to result in a lot more cases with a virus that is this contagious. Obvious to point out also about the people shouting/calling out and close physical contact etc. A shame as it will undo so much of the hard work and sacrifice of people through lockdown until this point.

At this point, if people can't/won't use the actual "Ignore" function, they could just actually ignore posts from people who have already 100% stated their position on things and are clearly not going to move a millimeter off of it...no matter what.

Problem with ignore is that you still see those people's responses in quoted response from others. And it takes some discipline to then ignore those comments, because you know reading them will make your blood boil..

So...They've started freeing up restrictions here, with retail stores being allowed to open provided they have all the social distancing/mask rules in place. The annoucement was within an hour of the announcement that there was also now a 8pm curfew in force 'indefinitely' (more likely a week or two)

Facebook is full of confused outrage as the right leaning and left leaning people on my wall scream about the form of government control they prefer. "Open everything but respect the curfew! Close everything but remove the curfew!
"

On the plus side, I walked into my local FLGS to buy one thing and walked out with four things so...that's back to normal at least.

 Ouze wrote:
I wonder about that - the big spike. I was sure there would be big spikes in Georgia and Florida, when they reopened, but by and large those things thankfully do not seem to have really happened.

edit: on the other hand, just because places have reopened doesn't mean the general public is participating, I suppose. I saw an article that indicated parts of Georgia remain utterly devoid of shoppers, which is one explanation of why the expected spike didn't occur. I imagine there are other explanations as well.

I think that a lot of people are trying to maintain that 6' Social Distance and wear masks when out, which will help.

Then, as you noted, a lot of people probably aren't going to go to restaurants, movie theaters, etc. just because their state is now 'open'.

Add in that I'm not sure many states are doing enough testing, reporting the numbers correctly, etc. and...here we are!

Well, that and there are a whole lot of asymptomatic people too, who won't get tested (even if they could) because they're not aware that they have it and can spread it?

 Ouze wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Except everyday life doesn't work using just your pure logic does it? when we're trying to get people round and out of supermarkets as quickly as possible

This isn't a universally agreed upon goal; and most people seem able to work with normal societal expectations of shopping with consideration during trying times - even when that means we're not grabbing bread and milk like we're doing a pit stop and we're behind;

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
we should all wait behind the (all due respect) old man who moves at a snails pace

Yes, some of us - maybe even most of us - are willing to perform what is a tiny, easily accomplished accomodation in the effort to try and avoid infecting an old person who just needs groceries to live with an illness that could be a death sentence;

(snip)

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
Sod them. Honestly...

I wish you had just posted this right up front at the beginning of the thread and saved a lot of time for everyone involved, because every single one of your posts has orbited this core idea, and even if I ignore you, most people are quoting the short-sighted, selfish, awful things you say here in a futile attempt to rebut them, and so I have to read them anyway. So, no point.

Anyway, perhaps being more honest and up front about your me-at-all-costs philosophy would have saved us all some noise.

So it's true, americans really don't understand sarcasm..
Whatever helps you sleep at night my dude.

QAR that wasn't sarcasm. If it was then, well, you're exceptionally bad at being sarcastic in text form on the internet.

I'm sorry, I didnt realise the thing I said wasn't sarcasm.

It doesn't particularly read as sarcasm to me either. However, lets tone it down and move on please.

So israel opened schools, there started cases appearing in numbers and schools are being reclosed.

And mask requirement in uk public transport. Well we know already who will ignore that one

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I'm sorry, I didnt realise the thing I said wasn't sarcasm.

I got the sarcasm. Still think you...r priorities are horrible. It doesn’t lend anyone to interpret your posts charitably.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
I'm sorry, I didnt realise the thing I said wasn't sarcasm.

I got the sarcasm. Still think you...r priorities are horrible. It doesn’t lend anyone to interpret your posts charitably.

It's the culmination of QAR's tone in general in this thread, so I was expecting it to be heartfelt.

So now UK test & trace app possibly not ready until September. How will be able to help with the second wave?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/jun/04/nhs-track-and-trace-system-not-expected-to-be-operating-fully-until-september-coronavirus

Why couldn't the UK co-opt a system that has already been used elsewhere? Take up the offer from Google or Apple, or follow Australia's route of utilising a system that had been made in Singapore (I assume they were already ready with software for SARS or some other scenario)? This is going to stop a second wave being controlled and more people will now die because of this decision.

As a positive, welcome news about face masks on public transport - I know there isn't a firm declaration in the science, but in cases of risk (and this is how a risk manager would, or should, be looking at it) you look at the 'worst case' outcome of each course of action. On the one outcome, perhaps you're a little uncomfortable and think you look stupid, on the other it might stop you catching (or more likely passing on) the virus. I look at the virus figures for somewhere like Japan or other parts of asia (many of which are far more densely populated than Europe), where literally everyone has been wearing a mask, and you have to think that it helps prevent transmission. There was also some interesting data from China-town in one of the US cities (I forget which), where most of the populace were wearing masks and infection rates were markedly lower. I'm sure there are other factors involved, but the wide range of evidence and research would suggest that face covering of some sort is a good idea.

An NHS IT contract goes awry? I've not heard that one before.

The problem with masks is that they don't prevent you from catching the disease. In fact with people using non-disposable non-medical masks the mask offers you very little real protection at all and might even increase your chances (or at least offers no difference).

Thing is there is decent proof that masks reduce air travel of your own breath, which means if you're a carrier who is unaware, the use of a mask can reduce your chances of spreading the disease.



I guess the other aspect is the UK government doesn't want mask PPE being hoovered up by the general population and leading to shortfalls for medical groups; however if they were worried about that they could make casual mask use mandatory and at the same time restrict retailers so that masks can only be sold to medical institutions. Amazon already has that limit on some medical supplies from its own choices.



And yeah the UK is really - odd. We aren't opposing the science but we seem to be REALLY dragging our heels on things. Such as tack and trace but also really basic things like quarantine at airports.

I've see that they're looking at ibufrofen to combat covid by reducing inflammation in the lungs.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200604/UK-doctors-test-lipid-ibuprofen-as-COVID-19-treatment.aspx

 Skinnereal wrote:
An NHS IT contract goes awry? I've not heard that one before.

Then again NHS hasn't had hand in that. I would rather look at where the company producing has donated cash. Maybe that explains why this company was chosen to do it for lotsa cash.

 Overread wrote:
The problem with masks is that they don't prevent you from catching the disease. In fact with people using non-disposable non-medical masks the mask offers you very little real protection at all and might even increase your chances (or at least offers no difference).

Thing is there is decent proof that masks reduce air travel of your own breath, which means if you're a carrier who is unaware, the use of a mask can reduce your chances of spreading the disease.

True. Wearing a mask is more of a sign of respect for others instead of protecting yourself.

I was going to open a thread about the Floyd Protests and related police riots since I used to live in the area, and now they are coming to my local town. Then I remembered this thread and decided not to.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-52931232

Looks like reports of the app being delayed weren't accurate. Although it appears our tracking system likely won't be "world class" until the autumn.

There are some definitely some vagaries of language there aren't there. Is the app launch going to be effectively an alpha beta-version which doesn't work properly?

If the app is released then technically the minister will be correct. But, if it's a chocolate teapot, which means that there is no effective and functioning app (which I am now taking 'world class' to mean every time it is used by this government. i.e. it works at some basic level), really that's the only thing that matters here.

If I were a betting man, going on track so far, it's very difficult not to be cynical in this case.

 Ouze wrote:
I wonder about that - the big spike. I was sure there would be big spikes in Georgia and Florida, when they reopened, but by and large those things thankfully do not seem to have really happened.

edit: on the other hand, just because places have reopened doesn't mean the general public is participating, I suppose. I saw an article that indicated parts of Georgia remain utterly devoid of shoppers, which is one explanation of why the expected spike didn't occur. I imagine there are other explanations as well.

I mean, let's remember that Florida fired the person in charge of reporting numbers, because she was committed to reporting accurate numbers. So Florida not reporting a spike is not necessarily indicative of reality.

 Matt Swain wrote:
I've see that they're looking at ibufrofen to combat covid by reducing inflammation in the lungs.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200604/UK-doctors-test-lipid-ibuprofen-as-COVID-19-treatment.aspx

I'm sure thats the opposite of the advice that came out at the beginning? I definitely remember waking past a huge pile in Aldi a while back.

I believe early information was that Ibuprofen caused a worse reaction, however it might be that when taken at the right time it helps, but if taken too early/late it causes complications. Or it might be that the complications seen weren't the result of the drug but other element.s

There's a fair amount of evidence that ibuprofen can cause some viral infections to be more potent due to the effect it has on a key enzyme within the blood that regulates water and salt.

As this is one of the issues with covid (the impact on the specific enzyme that is), the hypothesis was that ibuprofen could make conditions worse, one specific effect they though possible was a greater risk of pneumonia from covid.

This has started to be more and more discredited though, and so the anti inflammatory response of ibuprofen should be beneficial in reducing inflammation of the lungs if you have covid, thus reducing hospital treatment of the virus.

We genuinely won't know what the the full picture is of the virus for a long time, the best people to take advice from if you think you are infected are health professionals, ignore the likes of Karen on facebook etc.

This isn't regular over the counter ibuprofen, I'm pretty sure you shouldn't be self medicating without the advice of a health professional at this point.

In the trial, the researchers are using Flarin, a lipid capsule form of ibuprofen that differs from the regular tablet available in pharmacies worldwide. Flarin has a unique formulation to protect the stomach of its users, and it is available in the U.K. Some people are already taking lipid capsules for other diseases, such as arthritis.

 r_squared wrote:

 Matt Swain wrote:
I've see that they're looking at ibufrofen to combat covid by reducing inflammation in the lungs.

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20200604/UK-doctors-test-lipid-ibuprofen-as-COVID-19-treatment.aspx

I'm sure thats the opposite of the advice that came out at the beginning? I definitely remember waking past a huge pile in Aldi a while back.

Different version of Ibuprofen. Not the sort you see on the shelves in Aldi.



That does however perhaps highlight just how dangerous misinformation is.


I've seen a few people commenting in this thread, posting information (including links to articles with said information), that is in fact wrong by all other accounts.

There is so much disinformation/misinformation about at the moment, not helped by people repeating it on social media/forums.

We're still OK to drink fish tank cleaner though, right?

You're supposed to inject it, in your cat.

In other news, the WHO have come out in favour of wearing masks in public.

I had better get my wife working on some with nice decoration.

Wierd, my local conspiracy theorists have been sharing "Reports" that the WHO says masks are only needed when taking care of the sick, which I attribute either to an out of date theory, or complete BS.

Bizarre that we're entering the 6th month of this with no clear consensus.

 Ouze wrote:
Bizarre that we're entering the 6th month of this with no clear consensus.

Welcome to the world of science , also , the Progress in this has been impressively fast compared to typhus, f.e .

 Ouze wrote:
Bizarre that we're entering the 6th month of this with no clear consensus.

The reality is that science reaches consensus far slower than anyone really wants and far faster when it's not being pulled in a dozen different directions by self-serving politics.