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Has anyone else noticed how much of 40k background has been blatantly stolen from Dune. Both the books and the 1984 movie.

old news.

40k ripping off Dune? Preposterous!

Next you'll be insinuating that the Last Chancers books have similarities to The Dirty Dozen.

Or that certain primarchs are similar to Batman.

Insanity.

Ha lol. But seriously. You read the book and watch the movie and spend half the time going. “So thats where they got that from.”

Don't forget Moorcock's Elricand other books for the concept and symbol of Chaos.

Yes, 40k is heavily inspired by Dune. And stuff out of 2000 AD. The Adeptus Mechanicus is more than a little inspired by the manipulative technology religion in Asimov's Foundation series, down to the red robes. And on it goes.

Originality is well and good, but it may be a tad overrated when evaluating creativity. Quality is where it's at. A concept can be much refined from its premier launch, including in the hands of others. Games Workshop has long possessed the ability to weave together many different concepts to a greater whole, thereby creating a smörgåsbord where ravenous alien swarms rub shoulders with murder robots, demons, space marines, religious fanatics, psykers, space elves, scheming nobles, weird navigators, mad scientists, football hooligans, upstart optimist aliens and much more.

Just like Warhammer Fantasy is a rich smörgåsbord where medieval knights and renaissance landsknechts rub shoulders with dinosaurs, demons, vampires, mummies, vikings, elves, dwarfs, orcs and ratmen.

The ability to instantly, or at least quickly, understand what you are looking at, is one of Games Workshop's long-standing strengths. More so for fantasy than 40k, but both play on familiar concepts and generic archetypes, including iconic historical styles and things seen before in other settings.

The creative process has always been one of freewheeling crossfertilizing inspiration. We ought not to demean this ageless and inherently brilliant aspect of our species by reducing it to "rip-offs" and "theft".

How about inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau? That's three more franchises in one single person!

You think this is bad - the overwhelming bulk of fantasy books have been based on Tolkien for a VERY long time. Heck original Warhammer was heavily based upon it.

As said above, its all about inspiration. Something big and major inspires a whole generation (or many) who then go on to create things based upon that original inspiration. Sometimes two or three things will inspire a creative direction and then you've got a multiple series of things that all combine together.

Plus when you've something like Warhammer, which has multiple creative staff, you increase the chances of getting multiple inspirations.


Heck Gaunts Ghosts is based somewhat off the Sharp novels and I'm willing to bet there's a good few series around inspired by the O'Brian Jack and Aubry series (Master and Commander)

like I've said before I'm so looking forward to the new Dune being accused of ripping off 40k

Hi.

Yep, 40k has loads of Dune-inspired elements.
Personal shields, suspensors, navigators, hover-craft, mutation from exposure, an emporor (a bit of a stretch...), and lots more.

Look up the US court case GW brought against ChapterHouse Studios, and there are mentions of IP and inspiration. GW got called out as using other people's work without permission or payment.

Have you ever played Starcraft? ....

 Skinnereal wrote:
Have you ever played Starcraft? ....

Actually, the very first Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer game, but Blizzard couldn't/wouldn't get the license so they made generic orcs vs generic humans.

But yeah, Starcraft is just "how much can we make it look like WH40k without getting a lawsuit?"

 Tiennos wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Have you ever played Starcraft? ....

Actually, the very first Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer game, but Blizzard couldn't/wouldn't get the license so they made generic orcs vs generic humans.

But yeah, Starcraft is just "how much can we make it look like WH40k without getting a lawsuit?"

From what I gather GW approached Blizzard to make the game. However during the process the companies fell out over something and the contract was cancelled. By that point Blizzard had already done a bunch of work on the game so they simply changed some of the lore and designs and released their own game rather than cancel the whole project.

Starcraft was a copy-cat of what GW did as well; both in terms of lifting a few things like the marine-tyranid-eldar; but also in terms of the same evolution of a fantasy game taken into outer space. That said Bliz has copycatted things back too - I'm convinced Raveners were based on the idea of Hydralisks from Starcraft (snake like critter with upper scythe blades and a ranged thorax weapon)

There you go. That saved me lots of typing.

 Overread wrote:
You think this is bad - the overwhelming bulk of fantasy books have been based on Tolkien for a VERY long time. Heck original Warhammer was heavily based upon it.

And everyone knows that Lord of the Rings is just a rip off of Dungeons & Dragons!

I'm joking, but this is actually something I heard someone in the audience say during a LotR movie screening. It was particularly funny since standard D&D draws a ton of foundational content from LotR. The same person was really bummed out when Gandalf "died" fighting the Balrog. "That sucks. Who is gonna help the Hobbits out in the next movie?!?" It's easy to forget that some people in that room legit didn't know the story.

I’d actually argue that the dune elements are fairly minor. Oh sure, we have navigators, the order famulous is kinda the bene gesserit if you squint and an inhuman emperor who’s ruled for thousands of years, but overall it’s one of the least important of the early influences 40k has, and we’re missing the vast majority of core elements of the dune series.

No sandworms, no spice, no magic shields that cause nuclear explosions if a laser hits them (lets be real: This would not deter 40k factions from shooting at the shields), very little focus on noble family squabbles, despite the regressive tech cult Mentats aren’t a thing, (they just use a mix of non-sentient computers and hypocrisy) and quite possibly biggest of all: No excruciatingly long philosophical rambles. (when people call Dune unfilmable, this is why. The plot and setting aren’t difficult to capture on film at all, but the dense philosophy? Can’t film that.)

Ultimately if I was describing the foundational influences of 40k to someone I’d say it’s an in-space version of an existing Tolkien/Moorcock ripoff setting with a big dollop of 2000AD for flavour.

changemod wrote:
I’d actually argue that the dune elements are fairly minor. Oh sure, we have navigators, the order famulous is kinda the bene gesserit if you squint and an inhuman emperor who’s ruled for thousands of years, but overall it’s one of the least important of the early influences 40k has, and we’re missing the vast majority of core elements of the dune series.

No sandworms, no spice, no magic shields that cause nuclear explosions if a laser hits them (lets be real: This would not deter 40k factions from shooting at the shields), very little focus on noble family squabbles, despite the regressive tech cult Mentats aren’t a thing, (they just use a mix of non-sentient computers and hypocrisy) and quite possibly biggest of all: No excruciatingly long philosophical rambles. (when people call Dune unfilmable, this is why. The plot and setting aren’t difficult to capture on film at all, but the dense philosophy? Can’t film that.)

Ultimately if I was describing the foundational influences of 40k to someone I’d say it’s an in-space version of an existing Tolkien/Moorcock ripoff setting with a big dollop of 2000AD for flavour.

Just off the top of my head, these three are generally considered to be the major influences from Dune.
1. Immortal God Emperor of Mankind guiding humanity's growth over time? Check
2. Space Travel requires mutant Navigators and is mostly controlled by a 'Navigators Guild'? Check
3. AI caused some real problems in the past and thinking machines are now forbidden? Check

There are plenty of other common influences. As other's have mentioned, the whole concept of Chaos and the eight pointed Chaos star is a Moorcock concept. There is also a lot of Starship Troopers, Aliens, 2000AD/Judge Dredd, Tolkien, etc. in there.

I do think that "space version of an existing Tolkien/Moorcock ripoff setting with a big dollop of 2000AD for flavour" is a fair way to describe the setting to someone who knows has a wide knowledge of older scifi/fantasy, but inexplicably has never really seen 40k.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Overread wrote:
You think this is bad - the overwhelming bulk of fantasy books have been based on Tolkien for a VERY long time. Heck original Warhammer was heavily based upon it.

And everyone knows that Lord of the Rings is just a rip off of Dungeons & Dragons!

I'm joking, but this is actually something I heard someone in the audience say during a LotR movie screening. It was particularly funny since standard D&D draws a ton of foundational content from LotR. The same person was really bummed out when Gandalf "died" fighting the Balrog. "That sucks. Who is gonna help the Hobbits out in the next movie?!?" It's easy to forget that some people in that room legit didn't know the story.

LotR IS heavily influenced by The Worm Ouroboros by ER Eddison, however.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Overread wrote:
You think this is bad - the overwhelming bulk of fantasy books have been based on Tolkien for a VERY long time. Heck original Warhammer was heavily based upon it.

And everyone knows that Lord of the Rings is just a rip off of Dungeons & Dragons!

I'm joking, but this is actually something I heard someone in the audience say during a LotR movie screening. It was particularly funny since standard D&D draws a ton of foundational content from LotR. The same person was really bummed out when Gandalf "died" fighting the Balrog. "That sucks. Who is gonna help the Hobbits out in the next movie?!?" It's easy to forget that some people in that room legit didn't know the story.

LotR IS heavily influenced by The Worm Ouroboros by ER Eddison, however.

It's also heavily based on Norse folk/myth tales as well. In fact if you read basic translations of them you realise so much of what makes Lord of the Rings is lifted right from them. Which is intentional, Tolkien's overall objective was to recreate an english mythology after the Norman Conquest basically wiped out a huge chunk of it when they took over.

 Kriswall wrote:

I do think that "space version of an existing Tolkien/Moorcock ripoff setting with a big dollop of 2000AD for flavour" is a fair way to describe the setting to someone who knows has a wide knowledge of older scifi/fantasy, but inexplicably has never really seen 40k.

If Tolkien is to Elves, Orcs, Dwarves, and Hobbits, then Scifi is:

Terrans/Humans

Ancient Yet Technologically Advanced Race

- Eldar, Xel'Naga, Forerunners (Halo), Vulcans, Asgardians (Stargate SG1)

Insectoid Race

- Tyranids, Zerg, Xenomorphs, Flood (Halo), Wraith (Stargate Atlantis)

Robotic Race

- Necrons, Cybermen, Borg, Replicators (Stargate SG1)

Warrior Race

- Klingons, Orks, Elites (Halo), Predators, Protoss. Jaffa (Stargate SG1)

Mysteriously Missing Race

- Xel'Naga, Forerunners (Halo), Old Ones, Space Jockeys, Ancients (Stargate SG1)

You got to hit that checklist.

Rule 21 of the miniatures world:
If it exists, GW have used it as source material.

 jobalisk wrote:
Has anyone else noticed how much of 40k background has been blatantly stolen from Dune. Both the books and the 1984 movie.

Yes, I was quite shocked when I read Dune...

 Tiennos wrote:
How about inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau? That's three more franchises in one single person!

Wait what!? That can't really be a character!

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Tiennos wrote:
How about inquisitor Obiwan Sherlock Clousseau? That's three more franchises in one single person!

Wait what!? That can't really be a character!

Yup

I remember that guy. Love the idea of him showing up in terminator armour and going "I would like a rheum...."

Bene Gesserit are actually equal parts famulous and sabine.

Genestealers = Giger Aliens

Tau = Macross / Robotech

Nids = Starship Troopers

Guard = WW everything

LoTR is at least as much WWII as Norse

Funny thing about archetypes. They tend to be archetypal.

PenitentJake wrote:
Bene Gesserit are actually equal parts famulous and sabine.

Genestealers = Giger Aliens

Tau = Macross / Robotech

Nids = Starship Troopers

Guard = WW everything

LoTR is at least as much WWII as Norse

Funny thing about archetypes. They tend to be archetypal.

LOTR was heavily influenced by his own experiences in war. How graphic some of the battle scenes are shocked the literary world upon publication. The duality of people is showcased front and center (i.e.frodo, boromir, sarumon, etc) more so in how each character is defined by it and also how they defy it.

I think 40k is basically Asimov and Moorcock with Herbet & Tolkein sprinkled in. All of those tempered with 1980's weirdness and allegory & satire the driving force.

Dont forget the movie Excalibur. Knights of the round table are Primarchs and bring the kingdom together before infighting and corruption splits the empire. The health of the king and the health of the land (empire) are one. And Tycho-I-mean-Mordred.

I think the worst example of “inspiration” I found was when I read the back story of Corvus Corax. something about he flew away from his legion saying “never more”.

Total rip off Simpson’s tree house of horror

mrFickle wrote:
I think the worst example of “inspiration” I found was when I read the back story of Corvus Corax. something about he flew away from his legion saying “never more”.

Total rip off Simpson’s tree house of horror

You got me there, good sir. For a second I was truly, truly flabberghasted. Then I decided than it simply cannot be.

 Overread wrote:

 Tiennos wrote:

 Skinnereal wrote:
Have you ever played Starcraft? ....

Actually, the very first Warcraft was supposed to be a Warhammer game, but Blizzard couldn't/wouldn't get the license so they made generic orcs vs generic humans.

But yeah, Starcraft is just "how much can we make it look like WH40k without getting a lawsuit?"

From what I gather GW approached Blizzard to make the game. However during the process the companies fell out over something and the contract was cancelled. By that point Blizzard had already done a bunch of work on the game so they simply changed some of the lore and designs and released their own game rather than cancel the whole project.

Starcraft was a copy-cat of what GW did as well; both in terms of lifting a few things like the marine-tyranid-eldar; but also in terms of the same evolution of a fantasy game taken into outer space. That said Bliz has copycatted things back too - I'm convinced Raveners were based on the idea of Hydralisks from Starcraft (snake like critter with upper scythe blades and a ranged thorax weapon)

"[Blizzard co-founder] Allen Adham hoped to obtain a licence to the Warhammer universe to try to increase sales by brand recognition", Wyatt says. "Warhammer was a huge inspiration for the art-style of Warcraft, but a combination of factors, including a lack of traction on business terms and a fervent desire on the part of virtually everyone else on the development team (myself included) to control our own universe nixed any potential for a deal. We had already had terrible experiences working with DC Comics on "Death and Return of Superman" and "Justice League Task Force", and wanted no similar issues for our new game."

This I think is the best info we have on it.