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yukishiro1 wrote:
I didn't hand-wave anything. Your examples didn't involve auras affecting the shooting unit, it involved auras effecting the unit being shot at (or the transport being blown up). This is something totally different from the question of whether an aura that hits the transport transfers the modifier to the unit via open-topped. There is no relationship between the two at all. If Mort's aura blows up a transport the units inside roll to see if they die because they're disembarking from a destroyed transport, not because of an aura. If they're shooting at something inside a KFF bubble, it's the unit they're shooting at that has the bubble, not the embarked unit. So of course the units being shot get it.

The freeboota aura isn't affecting the transported unit either. Open-topped is.

This has nothing at all to do with what we're talking about. Nobody said auras can never indirectly influence an embarked unit in that way, just that based on the wording of the FAQ, it calls into question whether a +1 to hit aura on a transport would transfer.

This is where you are wrong. Auras don't transfer, modifiers do. Because the rule says so.

I don't agree that the FAQ makes perfect sense. It makes no sense at all to be for them not to a caveat about the aura indirectly impacting the embarked units through a modifier to the transport if that's what they meant.

The modifier impacting the unit inside indirectly is exactly the same a Mortarions aura affecting the unit inside indirectly.

But I think we're just going around in circles at this point. You think it makes sense, I don't. It seems unlikely either of us is going to change our minds at this point. I think we're just going to have to agree to disagree.

I refuse to agree to disagree on something that is not a matter of opinion. You have failed to provide any counter-arguments to the arguments I provided.
The only reason why you have an argument at all is because you invented "transferring of auras", which doesn't exist in any rule. Even if "transferring of auras" did exist, your logic is flawed, a shown by the Azreal and Mortarion example.
You are simply wrong on this.

Saying the aura transfers is just a way of describing what is happening in fact. The transport gets the aura, and the modifier (according to your read) transfers via the transport to the embarked unit. The FAQ clearly says the embarked unit in an open-topped transport does not get the benefit (or detriment) of auras that the transport is in range of. My point is that if the embarked unit still gets the effect of the aura if it's a modifier via open-topped, the FAQ would say that. The FAQ does not say that, instead it says a definitive "no." I mean it doesn't even say "they aren't affected by the aura," it says "they aren't affected by that ability." If they're still affected by the modifier caused by the ability via open-topped passing on the modifier, the FAQ saying they not affected by the ability is a hugely misleading answer.

This suggests the matter isn't as clear-cut as you're suggesting. You fundamentally disagree with this because you think the FAQ not addressing the issue doesn't call it into question the general rule about passing on modifiers; I think the FAQ saying the embarked unit doesn't get the effect of the ability with a definitive "no" with no caveat about modifiers transferring via open-topped does call it into question.

You're welcome to your opinion. I explained why I think you're wrong on this, you explained why you think I'm wrong. I'm not convinced by your argument, you're not convinced my mine. I've certainly provided the arguments, just as you have - I just don't find yours convincing, and you don't find mine convincing. We're not going to have a productive further discussion at this point I don't think.

Modifiers do get transferred. If the transport had not had the Freebooterz keyword, then the Competitive Streak would not affect the transport, and the unit inside would not be affected by the aura (as you can't measure distance to the unit). Since the transports does have the keyword, however, it does get the modifier. The unit does get modifiers that the transport has, according to the rules, but is not getting its own +1 for the aura. If the unit inside could be affected directly by the aura, it would get a +1 from the aura on it, and would also get another +1 from the modifier being transferred. So, the unit isn't directly benefiting from the aura, but is still following the rules for modifiers being transferred.

<ignore this>

 doctortom wrote:
Modifiers do get transferred. If the transport had not had the Freebooterz keyword, then the Competitive Streak would not affect the transport, and the unit inside would not be affected by the aura (as you can't measure distance to the unit). Since the transports does have the keyword, however, it does get the modifier. The unit does get modifiers that the transport has, according to the rules, but is not getting its own +1 for the aura. If the unit inside could be affected directly by the aura, it would get a +1 from the aura on it, and would also get another +1 from the modifier being transferred. So, the unit isn't directly benefiting from the aura, but is still following the rules for modifiers being transferred.

Oh I definitely get the argument. It makes sense with the rule as it's originally written. If they had put that in the FAQ as part of the explanation of the question about the aura, I'd be totally on board with it. My problem is just that the FAQs they have issued don't say anything about this, and actively call it into question as well. For example, the FAQ on heavy weapons doesn't make any sense as the rule is written - if the transport doesn't suffer the -1 to hit for moving and shooting heavy weapons, then why does the embarked unit suffer that penalty? It hasn't transferred from the transport via open-topped because the transport doesn't suffer any modifier, and the unit isn't on the table itself so the unit hasn't moved itself. But yet it still suffers a -1 modifier that just comes out of nowhere. So the rule doesn't mean what it actually says. At that point, you either have to start trying to reconcile the FAQ with the rules - and then you start having doubts - or else say "the FAQ makes no sense, but is strictly limited to the precise thing it says, and we can totally ignore the rationale behind it in every situation it doesn't precisely cover."

yukishiro1 wrote:
Saying the aura transfers is just a way of describing what is happening in fact. The transport gets the aura, and the modifier (according to your read) transfers via the transport to the embarked unit. The FAQ clearly says the embarked unit in an open-topped transport does not get the benefit (or detriment) of auras that the transport is in range of.

If you remove the "just a a way of describing what is happing" you argument goes away. The unit inside is, in fact, not affected by the aura.

My point is that if the embarked unit still gets the effect of the aura if it's a modifier via open-topped, the FAQ would say that.

The unit does not get the effect auf the aura. All modifiers that apply to the transport must be applied to the the unit when shooting, in accordance to the open topped rule. These a separate things, just like Mortarions aura and emergency disembarking are.

The FAQ does not say that, instead it says a definitive "no." I mean it doesn't even say "they aren't affected by the aura," it says "they aren't affected by that ability." If they're still affected by the modifier caused by the ability via open-topped passing on the modifier, the FAQ saying they not affected by the ability is a hugely misleading answer.

Obviously they aren't affected by that ability. If they were, they would get +1 to hit from competitive streak and another +1 to hit from the open topped rule.

I think the FAQ saying the embarked unit doesn't get the effect of the ability with a definitive "no" with no caveat about modifiers transferring via open-topped does call it into question.

Your interpretation means that aura abilities cannot have any effect directly, or indirectly on an embarked unit.
I have provided counter-examples proving this interpretation to be wrong.
It has also no caveat about Mortarion's aura affecting them via emergency disembarking, nor Azreal via the taking saves rule.
More examples:
LoD's -1 to hit aura
dark shrouds
space marine ancients
custodes vexillas
If you claim the "no" as absolute, none of those auras benefit the unit that are inside of them when getting shot at from open topped transport - because that would mean the transported unit would be affected by an aura.

You're welcome to your opinion. I explained why I think you're wrong on this, you explained why you think I'm wrong. I'm not convinced by your argument, you're not convinced my mine.

I'm not convinced by you argument, because you don't have one besides "I believe so" and "they didn't specify it in detail". Meanwhile, I provide counter-arguments that have proven you wrong.
This is not a matter of opinion. Even if you honestly believe the earth to be flat, you are still wrong.

I've certainly provided the arguments

Please list them, I must have missed them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
My problem is just that the FAQs they have issued don't say anything about this, and actively call it into question as well.

This again. The absence of clarification not a proof of the opposite being true.

For example, the FAQ on heavy weapons doesn't make any sense as the rule is written - if the transport doesn't suffer the -1 to hit for moving and shooting heavy weapons, then why does the embarked unit suffer that penalty? It hasn't transferred from the transport via open-topped because the transport doesn't suffer any modifier, and the unit isn't on the table itself so the unit hasn't moved itself. But yet it still suffers a -1 modifier that just comes out of nowhere. So the rule doesn't mean what it actually says.

This is wrong. Mobile fortress allows a battlewagon to ignore the modifier, not that it doesn't get one. When the battlewagon moves, it still has a -1 to hit for heavy weapons which gets transferred to the passengers. When the wagon shoots, it just doesn't care that it has one.

At that point, you either have to start trying to reconcile the FAQ with the rules - and then you start having doubts - or else say "the FAQ makes no sense, but is strictly limited to the precise thing it says, and we can totally ignore the rationale behind it in every situation it doesn't precisely cover."

1) Your argumentation is based on a series of assumption building on each other. What you fail to understand is that your assumptions are the reason why the FAQs make no sense.
2) Both FAQs make perfect sense when you properly understand and apply the rules.

Some rules state "this model ignores the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons," while some rules state "this model does not suffer the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons." Are you really saying this means that embarked units in the former would suffer the -1 to hit, but embarked units in the latter would not? Still other rules say "this model may move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty," so presumably embarked units on those wouldn't suffer -1 to hit either?

This is my problem with your argument in a nutshell: you explain away FAQs by reading them in an extremely limited, technical way, but the FAQs themselves show no indication they are intended to answer the question in that manner. They provide definitive answers without caveats, with no suggestion that they are intended to be read in so limited a way that they actually end up with the opposite result in some circumstances.

A FAQ isnt there to completely lay out how things work, thats what the rules themselves are for.
FAQs are for specific scenarios that either need to change (technically an errata but that term kinda vanished lately) or have an unclear interaction/commonly misinterpreted one.

I dont know why they feel the need to faq the mobile fortress not transferring to the open-topped unit. Its not a modifier, nor a restriction, so it cannot transfer anyway. Had it granted +1 when firing Heavy instead of "do not apply the penalty" then we'd have a directly conflicting faq saying it doesnt work. But its not worded that way so utterly pointless to bring the rule up.

Just because a FAQ specifically calls out one scenario on an ability and doesnt mention another at all doesnt mean it cancels both out. Thats the entire argument here.
The embarked unit is not affected by any aura, the transport is. Since that aura happens to be a modifier, it transfers the effect. If that aura was a reroll or bonus range it would not apply to the embarked units, as those are not modifiers. Embarked unit is STILL not affected by any auras, despite getting +1 to hit.

This game is full of rules that skirt around other rules without fully 100% ignoring them, why is this one such a problem to understand?

So to be clear, both of you would say that grots in a freebooterz truck get a +1 to hit (assuming the ability is triggered), even though they wouldn't get it on foot?

Technically, yes. Because they aren't benefitting from the Kultur, but rather from Open-Topped. You could even put them in a Chinork and use "Long, Uncontrolled Bursts" to give them a +1 against an enemy Flyer, because even though you can't use Stratagems on GRETCHIN units, using it on the Transport and transferring the bonus via Open-Topped allows them to benefit from it.

Yeah, I just find that very unlikely to be the intent of the rule, especially given the heavy weapons FAQ making clear that embarked units suffer the -1 to hit even though they aren't on the table so haven't moved themselves, and even though it doesn't pass to them via open-topped because the battlewagon doesn't suffer it in the first place. I don't buy the distinction that "ignore" means it still suffers the -1 so it can pass it to the embarked units, but that it doesn't count the modifier itself; as noted, other models say "doesn't suffer," and I don't really buy that that is supposed to be a distinction, and that embarked models in a "doesn't suffer" transport wouldn't have the -1, but embarked models in an "ignore" transport do.

Nor do I think that long bursts on a chinork is intended to give your embarked tankbustas the +1 to hit, based on that FAQ. Though I will grant that the wording of the rule itself would suggest they do get the bonus, as do the grots.

The rules often disagree with what we would believe is intended. And, to be fair, GW likes to forget that FW exists when they write rules. But, RAW, it works. Same as Open-Topped providing a benefit for an embarked unit that they wouldn't normally be able to use.

 flandarz wrote:
Technically, yes. Because they aren't benefitting from the Kultur, but rather from Open-Topped. You could even put them in a Chinork and use "Long, Uncontrolled Bursts" to give them a +1 against an enemy Flyer, because even though you can't use Stratagems on GRETCHIN units, using it on the Transport and transferring the bonus via Open-Topped allows them to benefit from it.

No.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked
within that transport? For example, if I use More Dakka! on
a Battlewagon, do any units embarked inside benefit from it?
In addition, can you use Stratagems on units embarked within
a transport (e.g. can you use Showin’ Off on a Bad Moons
Infantry unit embarked within a Battlewagon)?
A: No to both.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Some rules state "this model ignores the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons," while some rules state "this model does not suffer the penalty for moving and shooting heavy weapons." Are you really saying this means that embarked units in the former would suffer the -1 to hit, but embarked units in the latter would not?

That would be correct.

Still other rules say "this model may move and shoot heavy weapons without penalty," so presumably embarked units on those wouldn't suffer -1 to hit either?

I would have to look at the exact rule, but if that model doesn't have open topped, it's kind of off-topic and just a mind jogging exercise.

This is my problem with your argument in a nutshell: you explain away FAQs by reading them in an extremely limited, technical way, but the FAQs themselves show no indication they are intended to answer the question in that manner. They provide definitive answers without caveats, with no suggestion that they are intended to be read in so limited a way that they actually end up with the opposite result in some circumstances.

You do the same, except you throw up questions and problems while doing so. My interpretation causes no conflicts between rules and FAQs, while yours does. At which point you should apply Occam's razor - meaning the explanation that does not cause further problems is most likely the correct one.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Yeah, I just find that very unlikely to be the intent of the rule, especially given the heavy weapons FAQ making clear that embarked units suffer the -1 to hit even though they aren't on the table so haven't moved themselves, and even though it doesn't pass to them via open-topped because the battlewagon doesn't suffer it in the first place.

Considering, that this is exactly how moving open topped battlewagons and passengers with heavy weapons have interacted with each other for four editions, it is extremely likely that this exactly working as intended.

I don't buy the distinction that "ignore" means it still suffers the -1 so it can pass it to the embarked units, but that it doesn't count the modifier itself; as noted, other models say "doesn't suffer," and I don't really buy that that is supposed to be a distinction, and that embarked models in a "doesn't suffer" transport wouldn't have the -1, but embarked models in an "ignore" transport do.

You can only ignore a negative modifier if you are already suffering from one.

Nor do I think that long bursts on a chinork is intended to give your embarked tankbustas the +1 to hit, based on that FAQ. Though I will grant that the wording of the rule itself would suggest they do get the bonus, as do the grots.

Sorry yukishiro, but you now argue that passengers shouldn't get +1 to hit from freebootas, that they shouldn't get -1 to hit from moving heavy weapons and now that they shouldn't get +1 to hit from long, uncontrolled bursts.
Those are all possible modifiers that can apply to a transport in the ork codex.
You just need to accept that modifiers transfer from transport to embarked passenger through the open topped rule and move on instead of inventing more reasons and interpretation to argue that they don't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Technically, yes. Because they aren't benefitting from the Kultur, but rather from Open-Topped. You could even put them in a Chinork and use "Long, Uncontrolled Bursts" to give them a +1 against an enemy Flyer, because even though you can't use Stratagems on GRETCHIN units, using it on the Transport and transferring the bonus via Open-Topped allows them to benefit from it.

No.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked
within that transport? For example, if I use More Dakka! on
a Battlewagon, do any units embarked inside benefit from it?
In addition, can you use Stratagems on units embarked within
a transport (e.g. can you use Showin’ Off on a Bad Moons
Infantry unit embarked within a Battlewagon)?
A: No to both.

Wrong. Open topped applies all modifiers to the unit inside when shooting. Same reasoning as for the freebootas aura. Neither moar dakka nor showin' off are modifiers.

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 flandarz wrote:
Technically, yes. Because they aren't benefitting from the Kultur, but rather from Open-Topped. You could even put them in a Chinork and use "Long, Uncontrolled Bursts" to give them a +1 against an enemy Flyer, because even though you can't use Stratagems on GRETCHIN units, using it on the Transport and transferring the bonus via Open-Topped allows them to benefit from it.

No.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked
within that transport? For example, if I use More Dakka! on
a Battlewagon, do any units embarked inside benefit from it?
In addition, can you use Stratagems on units embarked within
a transport (e.g. can you use Showin’ Off on a Bad Moons
Infantry unit embarked within a Battlewagon)?
A: No to both.

Wrong. Open topped applies all modifiers to the unit inside when shooting. Same reasoning as for the freebootas aura. Neither moar dakka nor showin' off are modifiers.

Its irrelevant whether the transport is open topped, or not. The FAQ says stratagems used on a transport dont affect embarked units. The battlewagon in the example is open topped, and the FAQ still says no.

It's not affecting the unit. Open topped is affecting the unit.

 Jidmah wrote:
It's not affecting the unit. Open topped is affecting the unit.

The battlewagon in the example is open topped, and the FAQ still says no.

 p5freak wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It's not affecting the unit. Open topped is affecting the unit.

The battlewagon in the example is open topped, and the FAQ still says no.

Because neither stratagem applies a modifier.

When shooting, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to the open topped also apply to its passengers. The source of those restrictions and modifiers is irrelevant.

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
It's not affecting the unit. Open topped is affecting the unit.

The battlewagon in the example is open topped, and the FAQ still says no.

Because neither stratagem applies a modifier.

When shooting, any restrictions or modifiers that apply to the open topped also apply to its passengers. The source of those restrictions and modifiers is irrelevant.

FAQ says no. Any stratagem (irrelevant what it does) played on a transport doesnt affect the embarked unit.

 p5freak wrote:
FAQ says no. Any stratagem (irrelevant what it does) played on a transport doesnt affect the embarked unit.

It doesn't. The modifier that the transport got as a result of the stratagem does.

 Jidmah wrote:

 p5freak wrote:
FAQ says no. Any stratagem (irrelevant what it does) played on a transport doesnt affect the embarked unit.

It doesn't. The modifier that the transport got as a result of the stratagem does.

FAQ says no.

It doesn't.

Btw: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.

 Jidmah wrote:
It doesn't.

Btw: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/253892.page

1. Don't make a statement without backing it up.
- You have to give premises for a conclusive statement; without this, there can be no debate. For more detail on how to actually create a logically supported conclusion, please read this article on how to have an intelligent rules debate.

I have quoted the relevant FAQ, i dont know what else you want from me. Looks like you missed it, here it is again.

Q: Do Stratagems used on a Transport affect units embarked
within that transport? For example, if I use More Dakka! on
a Battlewagon, do any units embarked inside benefit from it?
In addition, can you use Stratagems on units embarked within
a transport (e.g. can you use Showin’ Off on a Bad Moons
Infantry unit embarked within a Battlewagon)?
A: No to both.

More Dakka! is not a modifier or restriction.
Showin' Off is not a modifier or restriction.
Neither interact with open topped in any way.

Unlike long, uncontrolled bursts, which is - by definition - giving the chinork a modifier.
If the chinork has a modifier or restriction for any reason, you must apply those to the embarked unit when shooting.

Otherwise, I'd argue that eldar "Lightning Reflexes", space marine "Super-Human Physiology" or necron" Quantum Deflection" don't work against shots fired by tank bustas from a trukk. Because all those are affecting units embarked on a transport by your interpretation.

You made your point, Jid made counterpoints.
You are ignoring OpenTopped's effect entirely, purely hindering on that faq saying stuff doesnt directly affect units embarked in an opentopped. That faq is relevant because stuff like More Dakka or reroll stuff does not go through since theyre not modifiers, that is the entire point of the discussion. Quit ignoring that just becuase you dont like the result.

And you are literally just responding with "No because i said so" so please stop.

"I dont think thats the intent" is not a valid argument either.

I dont ignore anything, you ignore a crystal clear FAQ. Stratagems used on an open topped transport dont affect the embarked unit within that transport.

 p5freak wrote:
I dont ignore anything, you ignore a crystal clear FAQ. Stratagems used on an open topped transport dont affect the embarked unit within that transport.

It isn't. For a stratagem that gives a +1 modifier, It affects the transport, which gets a +1 modifier. Modifiers from open topped transports are passed onto unit that are passengers in it. If the stratagem had been passed on, then that stratagem would give the unit a +1 and the open topped rule would give another +1, to make it a +2 on the embarked unit. That doesn't happen.

The FAQ you are relying on was dealing with stratagems that weren't providing modifiers. You are correct that those don't get passed on, as the open topped rules only discuss passing on modifiers affecting the transport, not non-modifiers. The open topped rule is quite clear that modifiers the transport has get passed onto the passengers, however.

We arent saying the stratagem/aura is affecting the units inside. We are saying Open-Topped is a proxy for specifically modifier effects from any source.

Big difference.

Yeah, but the point is that is yet another example of a FAQ that just provides a definitive "no" answer to a question you want to say is actually "technically no, but actually yes for a different reason" in many cases. It requires assuming that GW was ignoring the question that really matters (whether the embarked unit gets a modifier) in favor of answering a question nobody really cares about in practice (how they get the modifier), without explaining it was doing so, and without any caveats to make clear it was answering the theoretical question, not the practical one. If they intended to say "strategems can't directly benefit the embarked unit, but any strategem that gives the transport a modifier will transfer to the embarked unit via open-topped" why wouldn't they just have said that?

People playing this game generally don't care *how* the embarked unit gets a modifier, they care whether it *does*. Reading all these FAQs to be answering a very limited theoretical question instead of a broadly applicable general question is, well, questionable.

I'm not saying it's clear. My whole point is it isn't clear. All these FAQs suggest that GW may well see open-topped as much more limited, affecting only the sort of things the rule actually says (i.e. if the trukk moved, units inside count as moving, if the trukk fell back, they can't shoot, etc) and not intending it to pass on +s or -s to hit that the trukk gets from auras, stratagems and the like.

"And the like" for modifiers includes things like shooting at supersonic vehicle, shooting at Alaitoc models in cover, negatives for shooting at units which give negative modifiers if you're a certain range away, etc. Are you saying everyone should start sticking units in open topped vehicles so that we can start ignoring the negative modifiers?