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 ClockworkZion wrote:

Something that I didn't know before digging a little deeper into his book series is that Ragnar once chucked the Spear of Russ through Magnus' Eye (in Grey Hunter). If he can wound a Daemon Primarch I'm putting money on the table he can kill anything less than that.

So that actually gives him three Daemon Primarch incidents, ome in which we know he wounded one personally. How many fights do we have for Ghaz on that level? None.

This, thank you. People claiming Ragnar is not in a high enough tier to wound Ghaz seem to forget or be unaware that Ragnar poked Magnus in da eye with the Spear of Russ.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Ragnar has a +1 hit hit rolls in the first round of combat so auto hits

Oh yes the famous Space Woofs auto-hitting in melee.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Justyn wrote:
Meh, Ghaz could be fighting the Emperor himself and some folks would whine because he's just a human. Ghaz can't lose to any puny human. In fact Ghaz can't lose at all to anything. He should dominate the fluff from here on out. The fact that he won't is just GW hating on xenos players.

Oof that's some strong strawmanning. Actually no it isn't. It's really obvious and stupid, silly me.

Of course Ghaz' can and should lose. To a character of equal standing.

Ghaz is as good as it gets for the Orks. He is the peak. If he can be decapitated by a bloody 3rd in command Space Wolf, how am I supposed to believe that Orks are in any way a credible threat? Answer - I can't.

It looks like Orks are back to the comic relief status. Ghaz, the biggest, baddest, most intelligent Ork in the current setting can't compete with a Primarch, he can't even beat a Captain.

I can already tell that attempting to read the fluff for this will prove an exercise in frustration and it will be so laden with love for the Wolves/Marines it will read like a Horus Heresy novel.

This has nothing to do with 'love for xenos players' and everything to do with writing half decent, interesting fluff.

No, it does, it doesn't matter how well they write someone popping off his head, youd complain. If it was Logan instead of Ragnar it'd be "it's just a space marine", if it was a primarch it'd be "oh look the imperium saved by Mary sue characters again". The fact he got bested here is the problem and that it was by some form of marine. You don't seem to have a problem with a 100+ year old fella beating him down weirdly.

 Asmodai wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Ragnar has a +1 hit hit rolls in the first round of combat so auto hits).

That's not how attack rolls in 40K work.

You're right, but I still stand by Ragnar being the better fighter even if he doesn't benefit from his CT properly.


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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Justyn wrote:
Meh, Ghaz could be fighting the Emperor himself and some folks would whine because he's just a human. Ghaz can't lose to any puny human. In fact Ghaz can't lose at all to anything. He should dominate the fluff from here on out. The fact that he won't is just GW hating on xenos players.

Oof that's some strong strawmanning. Actually no it isn't. It's really obvious and stupid, silly me.

Of course Ghaz' can and should lose. To a character of equal standing.

Ghaz is as good as it gets for the Orks. He is the peak. If he can be decapitated by a bloody 3rd in command Space Wolf, how am I supposed to believe that Orks are in any way a credible threat? Answer - I can't.

It looks like Orks are back to the comic relief status. Ghaz, the biggest, baddest, most intelligent Ork in the current setting can't compete with a Primarch, he can't even beat a Captain.

I can already tell that attempting to read the fluff for this will prove an exercise in frustration and it will be so laden with love for the Wolves/Marines it will read like a Horus Heresy novel.

This has nothing to do with 'love for xenos players' and everything to do with writing half decent, interesting fluff.

He didn't lose to some chump, he lost to the man who stabbed a Daemon Primarch in the face. He lost to someone who has foiled Chaos plots on 5 different occasions, and banished a Thousand Sons Sorceror when he was a mere Bloodclaw. That's a powerful psyker with nearly 10k years of battle experiance who got beat by a fresh recruit named Ragnar.

I feel like people who aren't as well read on lore, especially old lore, are confusing "well known" for "equally powerful in setting".

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aounds lile goal posts are being shifted just because people haven't read books and refuse to aknowledge that Raganar traded mortal wounds to kill Ghaz instead of just lopping his head off and walking away.

The Canoness is irrelevant to the discussion (and still misses if she rerolls 1s into 1s, Ragnar has a +1 hit hit rolls in the first round of combat so auto hits).

Something that I didn't know before digging a little deeper into his book series is that Ragnar once chucked the Spear of Russ through Magnus' Eye (in Grey Hunter). If he can wound a Daemon Primarch I'm putting money on the table he can kill anything less than that.

So that actually gives him three Daemon Primarch incidents, ome in which we know he wounded one personally. How many fights do we have for Ghaz on that level? None.

1's always fail.... Ragnar is as accurate as any Captain/equivalent out there.

Oof that's some strong strawmanning. Actually no it isn't. It's really obvious and stupid, silly me.

It was meant to be obvious. Because that is exactly what this argument sounds like.

Of course Ghaz' can and should lose. To a character of equal standing.

Which clearly Ragnar is. Sorry you can't take orks seriously anymore. Its a game with story written for 12 year olds, my suggestion is don't take any of it so seriously.

 deffrekka wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aounds lile goal posts are being shifted just because people haven't read books and refuse to aknowledge that Raganar traded mortal wounds to kill Ghaz instead of just lopping his head off and walking away.

The Canoness is irrelevant to the discussion (and still misses if she rerolls 1s into 1s, Ragnar has a +1 hit hit rolls in the first round of combat so auto hits).

Something that I didn't know before digging a little deeper into his book series is that Ragnar once chucked the Spear of Russ through Magnus' Eye (in Grey Hunter). If he can wound a Daemon Primarch I'm putting money on the table he can kill anything less than that.

So that actually gives him three Daemon Primarch incidents, ome in which we know he wounded one personally. How many fights do we have for Ghaz on that level? None.

1's always fail.... Ragnar is as accurate as any Captain/equivalent out there.

Yeah, I forgot about it and it makes the Space Wolf CT kind of dumb on characters.

Point stands, Ragnar has more notable wins under his belt in actual combat than Ghaz does.

Yeah, I forgot about it and it makes the Space Wolf CT kind of dumb on characters.

Hitting on 2's with Thunderhammers isn't dumb.

Dudeface wrote:
No, it does, it doesn't matter how well they write someone popping off his head, youd complain. If it was Logan instead of Ragnar it'd be "it's just a space marine", if it was a primarch it'd be "oh look the imperium saved by Mary sue characters again". The fact he got bested here is the problem and that it was by some form of marine. You don't seem to have a problem with a 100+ year old fella beating him down weirdly.

Even then Ghaz flat out captured Yarrick without Yarrick even landing a hit on him. Yarrick and Ghaz's fights are more intellectual ones as Ghaz seems to enjoy using Yarrick as a whetstone to sharpen his tactical acumen, rather than someone to scrap with. Having them fight physically would be anticlimatic for anything other than a way to send off Yarrick on a heroic last stand against his own personal Moby Dick of the stars.


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Justyn wrote:

Yeah, I forgot about it and it makes the Space Wolf CT kind of dumb on characters.

Hitting on 2's with Thunderhammers isn't dumb.

Hence why it's only "kinda" dumb rather than being flat out stupid.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
If he can be decapitated by a bloody 3rd in command Space Wolf,

Rank =/= ability. Just because Logan's the boss, doesn't mean he's the best fighter. They don't work like Orks.

Even then Ghaz flat out captured Yarrick without Yarrick even landing a hit on him. Yarrick and Ghaz's fights are more intellectual ones as Ghaz seems to enjoy using Yarrick as a whetstone to sharpen his tactical acumen, rather than someone to scrap with. Having them fight physically would be anticlimatic for anything other than a way to send off Yarrick on a heroic last stand against his own personal Moby Dick of the stars.

Point stands, Ragnar has more notable wins under his belt in actual combat than Ghaz does.

I think the above quote is important in looking at Ghaz vs Ragnar. I've played Orks since the incident at "The Farm" (damn you Kantor and your "field police"), and in all that time, whenever they bring up Ghaz, while they DO mention how big, strong, and imposing he is, the biggest thing the writers emphasize, the thing that REALLY makes Ghazghkull well, Ghazghkull ... ISN'T his one-on-one combat ability, but rather his ability to organize concerted whaags that have actual organization to them beyond "We'ze jus' gonna krump da firs' thin' we come across". It's not his fighting prowess that makes him special - it's the fact that he can organize and lead in so effective a manner. So personally, I don't take issue w/Ragnar beating him.

Besides, IMO, when you look at the models, I feel that new Ragnar is really disappointing, while the new Ghazzy looks amazing. So ... as xenos, and IMHO, we definitely won this fight in the "looks" department! lol

 ikeulhu wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Something that I didn't know before digging a little deeper into his book series is that Ragnar once chucked the Spear of Russ through Magnus' Eye (in Grey Hunter). If he can wound a Daemon Primarch I'm putting money on the table he can kill anything less than that.

So that actually gives him three Daemon Primarch incidents, ome in which we know he wounded one personally. How many fights do we have for Ghaz on that level? None.

This, thank you. People claiming Ragnar is not in a high enough tier to wound Ghaz seem to forget or be unaware that Ragnar poked Magnus in da eye with the Spear of Russ.

At this point he sounds like the very definition of a Writers Pet trope.

Dudeface wrote:
No, it does, it doesn't matter how well they write someone popping off his head, youd complain. If it was Logan instead of Ragnar it'd be "it's just a space marine", if it was a primarch it'd be "oh look the imperium saved by Mary sue characters again". The fact he got bested here is the problem and that it was by some form of marine. You don't seem to have a problem with a 100+ year old fella beating him down weirdly.

You think I'd complain if bloody Russ came back and sliced his head off?! AND he [Ghaz] survived?!! You have no idea. Don't be stupid. I've clearly said above (in my post that you quoted) that I have no problem with Ghaz getting beat but he should get beat by a character of equal standing. Ragnar isn't equal standing because Ghaz is equivalent to our Primarch (in that he's the leader of the ENTIRE FACTION).




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 ClockworkZion wrote:
He didn't lose to some chump

Please provide a source/quotation where I claimed this?

I feel like you're confusing "Ragnar is not equivalent to Ghaz in terms of importance to his respective faction in my opinion and hence this lore looks to be really weak" to "Ragnar is a chump nobody idiot".


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Justyn wrote:
Which clearly Ragnar is. Sorry you can't take orks seriously anymore. Its a game with story written for 12 year olds, my suggestion is don't take any of it so seriously.

I can't take the lore seriously but your point is well made - the story isn't exactly known for it's depth and intelligence. Perhaps I should just accept that rather than hope for improvement.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
No, it does, it doesn't matter how well they write someone popping off his head, youd complain. If it was Logan instead of Ragnar it'd be "it's just a space marine", if it was a primarch it'd be "oh look the imperium saved by Mary sue characters again". The fact he got bested here is the problem and that it was by some form of marine. You don't seem to have a problem with a 100+ year old fella beating him down weirdly.

You think I'd complain if bloody Russ came back and sliced his head off?! AND he [Ghaz] survived?!! You have no idea. Don't be stupid. I've clearly said above (in my post that you quoted) that I have no problem with Ghaz getting beat but he should get beat by a character of equal standing. Ragnar isn't equal standing because Ghaz is equivalent to our Primarch (in that he's the leader of the ENTIRE FACTION).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
He didn't lose to some chump

Please provide a source/quotation where I claimed this?

I feel like you're confusing "Ragnar is not equivalent to Ghaz in terms of importance to his respective faction in my opinion and hence this lore looks to be really weak" to "Ragnar is a chump nobody idiot".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Justyn wrote:
Which clearly Ragnar is. Sorry you can't take orks seriously anymore. Its a game with story written for 12 year olds, my suggestion is don't take any of it so seriously.

I can't take the lore seriously but your point is well made - the story isn't exactly known for it's depth and intelligence. Perhaps I should just accept that rather than hope for improvement.

Aun'va is the leader of the Tau, enjoy Ghaz losing his head to a hologram.

Edit - here's a fun one, Lucius the Eternal can't win against most characters because he's barely even a line captain.

 Imateria wrote:

 ikeulhu wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

Something that I didn't know before digging a little deeper into his book series is that Ragnar once chucked the Spear of Russ through Magnus' Eye (in Grey Hunter). If he can wound a Daemon Primarch I'm putting money on the table he can kill anything less than that.

So that actually gives him three Daemon Primarch incidents, ome in which we know he wounded one personally. How many fights do we have for Ghaz on that level? None.

This, thank you. People claiming Ragnar is not in a high enough tier to wound Ghaz seem to forget or be unaware that Ragnar poked Magnus in da eye with the Spear of Russ.

At this point he sounds like the very definition of a Writers Pet trope.

He was invented by William King (who wrote the Felix novels), so it's possible, but it doesn't change facts.


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 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
He didn't lose to some chump

Please provide a source/quotation where I claimed this?

I feel like you're confusing "Ragnar is not equivalent to Ghaz in terms of importance to his respective faction in my opinion and hence this lore looks to be really weak" to "Ragnar is a chump nobody idiot".

It seems you're confusing "I don't know much about this character and his achievements" to his level of importance in the actual setting.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
If he can be decapitated by a bloody 3rd in command Space Wolf,

Rank =/= ability. Just because Logan's the boss, doesn't mean he's the best fighter. They don't work like Orks.

Yes I'm not talking about fighting ability per se. I'm talking about their respective importance to their factions. If Russ returned but Ragnar had to die I'm sure every Space Wolf in existence would take that trade. There is nothing 'above' Ghaz for Orks. Ghaz is the Ork Russ. He is as good as it gets unless we look at pre Heresy or just post Heresy lore, which is irrelevant insofar as 40k is concerned.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
Aounds lile goal posts are being shifted just because people haven't read books and refuse to aknowledge that Raganar traded mortal wounds to kill Ghaz instead of just lopping his head off and walking away.

The Canoness is irrelevant to the discussion (and still misses if she rerolls 1s into 1s, Ragnar has a +1 hit hit rolls in the first round of combat so auto hits).

Something that I didn't know before digging a little deeper into his book series is that Ragnar once chucked the Spear of Russ through Magnus' Eye (in Grey Hunter). If he can wound a Daemon Primarch I'm putting money on the table he can kill anything less than that.

So that actually gives him three Daemon Primarch incidents, ome in which we know he wounded one personally. How many fights do we have for Ghaz on that level? None.

1's always fail.... Ragnar is as accurate as any Captain/equivalent out there.

Yeah, I forgot about it and it makes the Space Wolf CT kind of dumb on characters.

Point stands, Ragnar has more notable wins under his belt in actual combat than Ghaz does.

Its alright on powerfist/thunderhammer characters or against the likes of Belial or anyone else that inflicts a -1 to hit. The thing with Ragnar's wins are, they seem kind of over the top. Like very Mary Sue.... Whichhhhh is fine in a galaxy (Imperium) full of Mary Sues, but at some points you have to go "U wot m8?" ahaha He is either blessed by the Emperor or is a Blank to survive 3 Daemonic Primarch encounters, especially a 1ksons Sorcerer. Like the fluff with Draigo or whoever it was carving his name in Mortarion's heart, yeaaaaa it gets a bit silly. And unfortunately Orkz dont get Mary Sue characters at all, so comparing plain old Ghaz to Ragnar who has a lot of love for his character through novels and such is kind of silly. Ghaz simply doesnt have multiple books dedicated solely to him and his feats (which I would love to read). So we never get to see his accomplishments and crazy stunts. If you dont read Ragnars novels you wouldnt know his crap either. So we can go X is better than Y due to Z but it still isnt a fair representation as both sides havent received the same amount of backstory and attention. Ghaz may have a fair chunk of history dedicated to him but we dont get to know who hes fought. Who knows, maybe Ghaz strangled a dying Leman Russ on a back water planet, but we wouldnt know, as 1. Ghaz wouldnt know who Russ is and 2. he hasnt had the same coverage. Every book staring Ghaz has been from the Imperial point of view.

Ragnar may have thrown a spear through Magnus' eye, Ghazghkull may have flipped a Warlord Titan onto a Hive world. Both are equally silly and Mary Sue. I can get other Ork players/fans frustrations as to many of us Ragnar is just another Space Marine. Im a Dark Angel player and I dont care who he is or Cato Sicarius or Kho'sorro Khan etc. A Space Marine can be as balls to the wall crazy when the story needs it to be which sometimes (for me) cheapens the whole thing.

Me personally, I dont think Ragnar is the right opponent for Ghaz. What prior conflict has Ghaz and the Space Wolves had? Maybe Armageddon? It should of been established rivals in the first place aka Helbrecht, Yarrick. Let the Wolves carry on their Saga with the Thousand Sons. Its kind of like having the Sisters of Battle fight T'au or Necrons fighting GSC. It doesnt really match up in the stories. Wolves fight Orkz yeah, but let Ghaz carry on his story with already pre-established rivalries.

Thats all.This whole who beats who, no he cant kill x, y is better than z because he throttled a sleeping Fulgrim needs to stop. GW has done a GW and we have to live with it, they arent gonna change it now. Ragnar may be the best to someone people, but to others Ghaz is. It will be a constant cycle of my guy is better than your guy.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It seems you're confusing "I don't know much about this character and his achievements" to his level of importance in the actual setting.

Show me a SW player that would not trade Ragnar for Russ? Unless Ragnar is THE most important character for Wolves he isn't equivalent to Ghaz.


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Dudeface wrote:
Aun'va is the leader of the Tau, enjoy Ghaz losing his head to a hologram.

Edit - here's a fun one, Lucius the Eternal can't win against most characters because he's barely even a line captain.

Aun Va is also impervious to all of Ghazzy's attacks, technically.

Lucius the Eternal is the epitome GW "problem" character. If he's killed he morphs from the person who beat him, if I'm not mistaken? If we wins he obviously wins and probably kills his opponent. He literally cannot go against an important character because either way he wins.

Or, more honestly, He's Andy's joke character for his sample warband back in 1st edition's Goff ork army list.

Who can beat who in a fight doesn't matter in any way at all- it has zip to do with the setting (or the 'story') and everything to do with who is writing and why.

That they opted for mutual kills, mutual resurrections and a pointless rematch within the same book is stupid enough from a writing perspective. Fortunately/unfortunately, it has no depth or lasting consequences.

Just take the new ork character model you wanted and move on.

Show me a SW player that would not trade Ragnar for Russ?

\Waves\
Don't want primarchs, don't need primarchs. Don't particularly care about Ragnar either (or SCs in general), but I'd much rather have a 'company commander' than Ubermensch Sir Snowflake McVikinghat.

Yes I'm not talking about fighting ability per se. I'm talking about their respective importance to their factions. If Russ returned but Ragnar had to die I'm sure every Space Wolf in existence would take that trade. There is nothing 'above' Ghaz for Orks. Ghaz is the Ork Russ. He is as good as it gets unless we look at pre Heresy or just post Heresy lore, which is irrelevant insofar as 40k is concerned.

But Ghaz isn't the Ork Russ. The Beast is the Ork Russ. Ghaz is who they have now because they don't have better, which is where Ragnar is. If Russ were back that might be a comparison you could make. Or if Ghaz were some legendary not appearing leader, like say the Beast. Talking strictly fighting here. Ghaz is imo a better leader than the Beast was, which is why he is so dangerous.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It seems you're confusing "I don't know much about this character and his achievements" to his level of importance in the actual setting.

Show me a SW player that would not trade Ragnar for Russ? Unless Ragnar is THE most important character for Wolves he isn't equivalent to Ghaz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Aun'va is the leader of the Tau, enjoy Ghaz losing his head to a hologram.

Edit - here's a fun one, Lucius the Eternal can't win against most characters because he's barely even a line captain.

Aun Va is also impervious to all of Ghazzy's attacks, technically.

Lucius the Eternal is the epitome GW "problem" character. If he's killed he morphs from the person who beat him, if I'm not mistaken? If we wins he obviously wins and probably kills his opponent. He literally cannot go against an important character because either way he wins.

I think Lucius only takes over that persons body if they enjoyed killing him? Or had some satisfaction from the fight? I cant remember haha! Its been a while since ive read about Lucius outside of 30k.

 deffrekka wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It seems you're confusing "I don't know much about this character and his achievements" to his level of importance in the actual setting.

Show me a SW player that would not trade Ragnar for Russ? Unless Ragnar is THE most important character for Wolves he isn't equivalent to Ghaz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Aun'va is the leader of the Tau, enjoy Ghaz losing his head to a hologram.

Edit - here's a fun one, Lucius the Eternal can't win against most characters because he's barely even a line captain.

Aun Va is also impervious to all of Ghazzy's attacks, technically.

Lucius the Eternal is the epitome GW "problem" character. If he's killed he morphs from the person who beat him, if I'm not mistaken? If we wins he obviously wins and probably kills his opponent. He literally cannot go against an important character because either way he wins.

I think Lucius only takes over that persons body if they enjoyed killing him? Or had some satisfaction from the fight? I cant remember haha! Its been a while since ive read about Lucius outside of 30k.

Lucius has a story where he finds himself in some menial serf's body and looks around and is annoyed to see the guy took pride in his work (I think it was making mines, but could have been bombs) and that's why he's back.

Lucius the Eternal is the epitome GW "problem" character. If he's killed he morphs from the person who beat him, if I'm not mistaken? If we wins he obviously wins and probably kills his opponent. He literally cannot go against an important character because either way he wins.

Lucius the Eternal has always been utterly stupid to me.

Justyn wrote:

Yes I'm not talking about fighting ability per se. I'm talking about their respective importance to their factions. If Russ returned but Ragnar had to die I'm sure every Space Wolf in existence would take that trade. There is nothing 'above' Ghaz for Orks. Ghaz is the Ork Russ. He is as good as it gets unless we look at pre Heresy or just post Heresy lore, which is irrelevant insofar as 40k is concerned.

But Ghaz isn't the Ork Russ. The Beast is the Ork Russ. Ghaz is who they have now because they don't have better, which is where Ragnar is. If Russ were back that might be a comparison you could make. Or if Ghaz were some legendary not appearing leader, like say the Beast. Talking strictly fighting here. Ghaz is imo a better leader than the Beast was, which is why he is so dangerous.

Your comparison falls apart because the key difference here is that Russ can return at any moment while The Beast (which is exactly what they have called Ghaz on the lead up to this PA, by the way) is dead. Stone cold. Brown bread.

Ragnar's lore has been frankly atrocious for a long time. Being able to beat Ghaz, non-fatally, AND at the cost of receiving multiple mortal wounds himself is actually one of the more reasonable aspects.

That's not a slight on Ghaz. He recovered and was back in action with something as trivial as a walk-in appointment at Grotsnik's practice, while Ragnar only survives due to the Rubicon deus ex machina. Based on established lore, that puts Ghaz on par with Daemon Primarchs; a much better outcome than just getting Worf'd like the Swarmlord, Avatar of Khaine, or Saint Celestine.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

Justyn wrote:

Yes I'm not talking about fighting ability per se. I'm talking about their respective importance to their factions. If Russ returned but Ragnar had to die I'm sure every Space Wolf in existence would take that trade. There is nothing 'above' Ghaz for Orks. Ghaz is the Ork Russ. He is as good as it gets unless we look at pre Heresy or just post Heresy lore, which is irrelevant insofar as 40k is concerned.

But Ghaz isn't the Ork Russ. The Beast is the Ork Russ. Ghaz is who they have now because they don't have better, which is where Ragnar is. If Russ were back that might be a comparison you could make. Or if Ghaz were some legendary not appearing leader, like say the Beast. Talking strictly fighting here. Ghaz is imo a better leader than the Beast was, which is why he is so dangerous.

Your comparison falls apart because the key difference here is that Russ can return at any moment while The Beast (which is exactly what they have called Ghaz on the lead up to this PA, by the way) is dead. Stone cold. Brown bread.

The Beast was a Primeork, a being in power and ability just shy of the Kork of old. Ghaz is a slightly mad, but very smart Warboss who wins more through tactics and kunnin' than through krumpin'. Primeorks are akin to Primarchs in power, while Ghaz is more like a Chapter Master in power -at best-.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm talking about their respective importance to their factions.

Which matters not a jot in a fight nor whether someone is capable of killing another.

Justyn wrote:

Yes I'm not talking about fighting ability per se. I'm talking about their respective importance to their factions. If Russ returned but Ragnar had to die I'm sure every Space Wolf in existence would take that trade. There is nothing 'above' Ghaz for Orks. Ghaz is the Ork Russ. He is as good as it gets unless we look at pre Heresy or just post Heresy lore, which is irrelevant insofar as 40k is concerned.

But Ghaz isn't the Ork Russ. The Beast is the Ork Russ. Ghaz is who they have now because they don't have better, which is where Ragnar is. If Russ were back that might be a comparison you could make. Or if Ghaz were some legendary not appearing leader, like say the Beast. Talking strictly fighting here. Ghaz is imo a better leader than the Beast was, which is why he is so dangerous.

But Ghaz isn't the Ork Russ. The Beast is the Ork Russ. Ghaz is who they have now because they don't have better, which is where Ragnar is. If Russ were back that might be a comparison you could make. Or if Ghaz were some legendary not appearing leader, like say the Beast. Talking strictly fighting here. Ghaz is imo a better leader than the Beast was, which is why he is so dangerous.

Regarding Ghaz's model, am I the only one who just rolls my eyes at the newest example of scale-creep?

 Platuan4th wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm talking about their respective importance to their factions.

Which matters not a jot in a fight nor whether someone is capable of killing another.

Rank doesn't matter, subfaction doesn't matter, I'd argue 1v1 ability is questionable in some circumstances. Wolves infiltrator 3 could have been the one to saw his head off from behind while ragnar is getting pulled apart and suddenly it's a literal nobody getting the kill in a perfectly reasonable manner.