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 vipoid wrote:
Regarding Ghaz's model, am I the only one who just rolls my eyes at the newest example of scale-creep?

I actually quite like his new model. He was always described as the size of a Dread but his model never was.

 deffrekka wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding Ghaz's model, am I the only one who just rolls my eyes at the newest example of scale-creep?

I actually quite like his new model. He was always described as the size of a Dread but his model never was.

Same. No complaints on the model front from me (except it looks intricate as all hell and will take me 6 months to paint!). I love it.

I think this was posted earlier in the thread but if not - here's the size comparison to Abby, Girly and Marneus;

https://storage.googleapis.com/spikeybits-staging-bucket/2020/03/62cb4db8-ghazghkull-thraka-size.jpg

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding Ghaz's model, am I the only one who just rolls my eyes at the newest example of scale-creep?

He's an Ork, he's supposed to get bigger.

I like the scale creep. I was always drawn to bigger models.

I don't get this discussion around Ghaz winng or losing against Ragnar. Personally, I consider Ghaz to be stronger than Ragnar and an overall bigger personnality in the 40K lore, but why would that make any defeat against Ragnar illegitimate ? A fight is not a mathematic equation, from a lore standpoint and even from a tabletop standpoint : there is a random element to it and also various contextual elements.
For exemple, if Ragnar is followed by infiltrator, does it mean that he approached Ghaz in a stealthy manner and got a first blow as a result ?

What matter is that Ragnar besting Ghaz once or even twice does not mean that Ghaz is inferior to Ragnar in term of importance within the 40K lore nor that he is weaker in any way.

An Actual Englishman wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
It seems you're confusing "I don't know much about this character and his achievements" to his level of importance in the actual setting.

Show me a SW player that would not trade Ragnar for Russ? Unless Ragnar is THE most important character for Wolves he isn't equivalent to Ghaz.


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Dudeface wrote:
Aun'va is the leader of the Tau, enjoy Ghaz losing his head to a hologram.

Edit - here's a fun one, Lucius the Eternal can't win against most characters because he's barely even a line captain.

Aun Va is also impervious to all of Ghazzy's attacks, technically.

Lucius the Eternal is the epitome GW "problem" character. If he's killed he morphs from the person who beat him, if I'm not mistaken? If we wins he obviously wins and probably kills his opponent. He literally cannot go against an important character because either way he wins.

I'd be willing to bet he would lose to Parker Lewis!

I don't get this discussion around Ghaz winng or losing against Ragnar. Personally, I consider Ghaz to be stronger than Ragnar and an overall bigger personnality in the 40K lore, but why would that make any defeat against Ragnar illegitimate ? A fight is not a mathematic equation, from a lore standpoint and even from a tabletop standpoint : there is a random element to it and also various contextual elements.
For exemple, if Ragnar is followed by infiltrator, does it mean that he approached Ghaz in a stealthy manner and got a first blow as a result ?

What matter is that Ragnar besting Ghaz once or even twice does not mean that Ghaz is inferior to Ragnar in term of importance within the 40K lore nor that he is weaker in any way.

Some people can't process that.

Ogdred wrote:
I feel like they handled the Ghaz/Ragnar matchup rather poorly no matter who you are rooting for. It should have been a Thanos style matchup. The first time the audience sees Thanos in action he beats down the freaking HULK without breaking a sweat. That sets him up as a truly monstrous bad guy. We know he's going to be defeated eventually and the good guys will win, but that sets the level of threat he poses right from the start. It takes a concerted, coordinated effort and planning to take him down and ultimately he's beat by a clever move by a human in a metal suit.

They could have mimicked that. Ghaz should have shown up unexpectedly and attacked Ragnar. Unaware of how strong he is, Ragnar charges in and is handily beat. Ragnar gets the Primaris treatment, comes up with a plan, ambushes Ghaz and takes his head off. (Maybe even with a Thor style "I aimed for the head"). Then Ghaz gets his head sewed back on and sets his sights on revenge. Here's the box set with armies on both sides squaring off for the revenge fight that you get to reenact on your table. Both sides feel like their guy is strong, both defeats seem logical, and both characters enter the box set with a 1-1 record looking for revenge instead of "no one's left alive so it's a draw?".

GW has been doing that for. fething. ever. It would be so easy to sell these box sets with "Decide the battle for yourself!" but they don't. The little story they include in the book/lore with the boxes always has one side as the designated loser (and I'll leave the side that always wins up to the viewer to infer )

My very favorite example of this was the Death Masque box, which introduced the very first named character with a model and rules for what was at the time my main played faction. I was super stoked for it and then realized upon opening the box that he was already canonically dead, shot in the face by the opposing faction's main dude without even a fight between them.

I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes. But since I've long since given up on GW fluff ever since they started those terrible HH series, the only thing that matters to me now is the models, and boy do I like that Ghaz. Looks like the new model will finally do his size justice. Would have preferred the base wasn't cluttered with terrain but at least it looks less bad on bigger models like Ghaz and Abby then it does on smaller ones.

Dudeface wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm talking about their respective importance to their factions.

Which matters not a jot in a fight nor whether someone is capable of killing another.

Rank doesn't matter, subfaction doesn't matter, I'd argue 1v1 ability is questionable in some circumstances. Wolves infiltrator 3 could have been the one to saw his head off from behind while ragnar is getting pulled apart and suddenly it's a literal nobody getting the kill in a perfectly reasonable manner.

Well, except that your example here assumes that someone could get to Ghazghkull's head from behind him. That's the position from which his head is safest, as you can see it projects outward from his torso directly.

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

For context gents, this is the equivalent of Kharn going toe to toe with Guilliman', or Calgar going toe to toe with Magnus, or Mephiston going toe to toe with Mortarion.

I suppose the most tragic thing is that now Ghazzy has been brought back from death he joins all those other 'immortal' characters that exist only to build up others such as Celestine, Swarmlord, the Avatar of Khaine and Skarbrand. Sad times.

The ones who seem to have a big issue with Ragnar dueling Ghaz to effectively a double KO seem to be those who believe the only ones that should be capable of going toe to toe with/besting Ghaz are those who are Primarchs or equivalent to them.

Ghaz is not on the level of a Primarch in terms of combat ability. Primarch's are not simply blessed by the gods like Ghaz. They are beings who are practically demi-gods. The only things that should be on a Primarch's level in terms of combat ability are the Greater Daemons, The Avatar and the C'tan who are each physical manifestations of 40k god's.

Not every faction has the equivalent of a; 'Primarch', infact most factions don't and that is ok. Not every faction needs to have an otherworldly combat demi-god.

In terms of combat ability and battle acumen Ghaz is on par with a Chapter Master so far as I'm concerned and as such Ragnar taking him on is not a stretch given his reputation as a warrior in the setting.

Hell knowing Ghaz he'll see it as all part of Gork and or Mork's plan and use the fact he has been shown to be practically invincible to bring more Orks to his cause.

the_scotsman wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:
I'm talking about their respective importance to their factions.

Which matters not a jot in a fight nor whether someone is capable of killing another.

Rank doesn't matter, subfaction doesn't matter, I'd argue 1v1 ability is questionable in some circumstances. Wolves infiltrator 3 could have been the one to saw his head off from behind while ragnar is getting pulled apart and suddenly it's a literal nobody getting the kill in a perfectly reasonable manner.

Well, except that your example here assumes that someone could get to Ghazghkull's head from behind him. That's the position from which his head is safest, as you can see it projects outward from his torso directly.

Which is no less plausible than it having to be a faction leader that can best him, otherwise he's immune to their lack of plot heft right?

 Tim the Biovore wrote:
Ragnar's lore has been frankly atrocious for a long time. Being able to beat Ghaz, non-fatally, AND at the cost of receiving multiple mortal wounds himself is actually one of the more reasonable aspects.

That's not a slight on Ghaz. He recovered and was back in action with something as trivial as a walk-in appointment at Grotsnik's practice, while Ragnar only survives due to the Rubicon deus ex machina. Based on established lore, that puts Ghaz on par with Daemon Primarchs; a much better outcome than just getting Worf'd like the Swarmlord, Avatar of Khaine, or Saint Celestine.

I mean, it does complete the perfect gamut of all the bad guy factions now having "can be killed and come back to life" mechanics.

And apparently the good guy faction, but it only works once (?)

Maybe we will descend from our current era of nonsense stalemates/good guys whacking resurrectable bad guys to full on wrestling stupidmode where everybody kills everybody all the time and it doesn't matter.

It'd be funny at least.

You also need to take into account the insane amount of space wolves hatred on this board. That alone accounts for probably 80% of the whining.

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

For context gents, this is the equivalent of Kharn going toe to toe with Guilliman', or Calgar going toe to toe with Magnus, or Mephiston going toe to toe with Mortarion.

I suppose the most tragic thing is that now Ghazzy has been brought back from death he joins all those other 'immortal' characters that exist only to build up others such as Celestine, Swarmlord, the Avatar of Khaine and Skarbrand. Sad times.

he only things that should be on a Primarch's level in terms of combat ability are the Greater Daemons, The Avatar and the C'tan who are each physical manifestations of 40k god's.
.

So what you're saying here is that every single new kit in the game should be heralded with a little short fiction piece of how they can kill primarchs, right? Because you just listed like...all of 40k's most notoriously worf'd characters in existence.

The c'tan got superman time punch retcon'd into a handwavy "then the necrons killed the star god guys somehow, we don't know, but they did it". Avatars get killed like every 12 seconds. And greater daemons are a snack for every faction and character whose shtick is they don't like chaos.

 deffrekka wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding Ghaz's model, am I the only one who just rolls my eyes at the newest example of scale-creep?

I actually quite like his new model. He was always described as the size of a Dread but his model never was.

Yes and no. FWIW, upon release the general consensus online and locally by me was that the model was huge and very impressive. Was he smaller than the metal dreads left over from 2nd edition? Yeah, in total bulk, he was... but he dwarfed the RT ones! And he was much bigger than the little ork on a 25mm base that he replaced! Also remember that dreadnoughts have experienced the same scale creep that many other things have in 40k. I'm ok with his new added bulk in the grand scheme of what seems to be going on with 40k right now (primarisizing) on top of what has been going on for even longer (apocalypsification).

 warboss wrote:

 deffrekka wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
Regarding Ghaz's model, am I the only one who just rolls my eyes at the newest example of scale-creep?

I actually quite like his new model. He was always described as the size of a Dread but his model never was.

Yes and no. FWIW, upon release the general consensus online and locally by me was that the model was huge and very impressive. Was he smaller than the metal dreads left over from 2nd edition? Yeah, in total bulk, he was... but he dwarfed the RT ones! And he was much bigger than the little ork on a 25mm base that he replaced! Also remember that dreadnoughts have experienced the same scale creep that many other things have in 40k. I'm ok with his new added bulk in the grand scheme of what seems to be going on with 40k right now (primarisizing) on top of what has been going on for even longer (apocalypsification).

Dont get me wrong I love Ghaz's old model, I have 4 of them. But I found his model better for a normal Warboss that his own tabletop representation. He is a Warlord not a Warboss, there is a difference and most people dont really know the difference between the 2 classifications. Im not a huge fan of Primarising everything, as a big collector of 30k Marines (Dark Angels) I much still prefer the older style of Marine even if they are too small on the tabletop. Making every name character cross the rubicon with no downsides is a bit dull. Really I would of loved Ragnar being a Dread, it would of been more unique and less Mary Sue. You wouldnt even be able to tell if Ragnar was mortally wounded, and thats my biggest problem with Space Marines atm. I would of just made Primaris a new MK of armour instead of the superior Marine crap they have going on. I much prefer the size and character the new CSM have than the Primaris range. But each to their own.

Im fine with scale creep, it just has to look good. And Primaris and Guiliman have been a huge miss to me.

WhiteDog wrote:
I don't get this discussion around Ghaz winng or losing against Ragnar. Personally, I consider Ghaz to be stronger than Ragnar and an overall bigger personnality in the 40K lore, but why would that make any defeat against Ragnar illegitimate ? A fight is not a mathematic equation, from a lore standpoint and even from a tabletop standpoint : there is a random element to it and also various contextual elements.
For exemple, if Ragnar is followed by infiltrator, does it mean that he approached Ghaz in a stealthy manner and got a first blow as a result ?

What matter is that Ragnar besting Ghaz once or even twice does not mean that Ghaz is inferior to Ragnar in term of importance within the 40K lore nor that he is weaker in any way.

Yep. Again different primarches are different fighting ability to each other. Lorgar for example was never known for being fighter. Nor alpharius. Russ, sanquinus, lion, angron meanwhile were all considered pretty awesome. Magnus had psychics as well.

Yet any primarch could win one on one duel.

Fights aren't best one always wins. Nobody fights same level every day every fight.


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the_scotsman wrote:

 Tim the Biovore wrote:
Ragnar's lore has been frankly atrocious for a long time. Being able to beat Ghaz, non-fatally, AND at the cost of receiving multiple mortal wounds himself is actually one of the more reasonable aspects.

That's not a slight on Ghaz. He recovered and was back in action with something as trivial as a walk-in appointment at Grotsnik's practice, while Ragnar only survives due to the Rubicon deus ex machina. Based on established lore, that puts Ghaz on par with Daemon Primarchs; a much better outcome than just getting Worf'd like the Swarmlord, Avatar of Khaine, or Saint Celestine.

Orks surviving getting head chopped off isn't new concept though. It's been in fluff couple decades at least

Ragnar being interred into a dread would be pretty good. He's young and vital and it would be kind of tragic, and doubtless he's be angry, like Shiban from Scars, or Tycho (Tycho's story being just about the only good thing about BA fluff from that era). Yes that would have some pathos and would be much better than what they're doing. Obviously can't happen though because we have Bjorn, plus it seems like it would be too on the nose compared to what they're going for with the fluff now. Oh and I just read that Lysander isn't actually dead - he was just "Lost" for a while Maybe they could inter him into a Dreadnought Sarcophagus instead of Ragnar then?

I think the Ghaz model looks cool, and getting upset by the new Saturday morning cartoons lore is starting to get old. We all knew it was going to happen.

Anyway, being a hype junkie its all on the Fabius Bile train. Give me Primaris-Wracks.

If they brought Fulgrim into the setting, which Loyalist would they bring? I think, with Bile confirmed, that Fulgrim is possible, what with this and the other mentions of him that have been sprinkled into PA, and a new Loyalist Primarch is pretty much confirmed as part of the final big PA reveal as far as I'm concerned (The new Chris Wraight book has the line "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them" halfway through chapter 2- this says to me 100% that there's a second Loyalist on the very near horizon).

 beir wrote:
You also need to take into account the insane amount of space wolves hatred on this board. That alone accounts for probably 80% of the whining.

As a Space Wolves player - the sheer awfulness of the current lore does not help with this - this latest chapter is not going to help this with lines like:

The greatest Ork Warboss of the 41st Millennium managed to do what no one in the galaxy could manage effectively kill Ragnar Blackmane, one of the Imperium’s greatest heroes.....

Yeah.....

So Fabius Bile - sounds fun.

 Castozor wrote:
I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes..

He didn't lose to 'some SM captain'... He lost to Ragnar Blackmane, who has been a big deal in this game for longer than Ghaz has existed.

 insaniak wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes..

He didn't lose to 'some SM captain'... He lost to Ragnar Blackmane, who has been a big deal in this game for longer than Ghaz has existed.

Unfortunately, pointing out relevant facts won't defeat the OPC displayed by some users in this thread, insaniak.

JWBS wrote:
If they brought Fulgrim into the setting, which Loyalist would they bring? I think, with Bile confirmed, that Fulgrim is possible, what with this and the other mentions of him that have been sprinkled into PA, and a new Loyalist Primarch is pretty much confirmed as part of the final big PA reveal as far as I'm concerned (The new Chris Wraight book has the line "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them" halfway through chapter 2- this says to me 100% that there's a second Loyalist on the very near horizon).

Why would Fulgrim returning mean a Loyalist would come back? Didn't happen when Mortarion returned.

 insaniak wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes..

He didn't lose to 'some SM captain'... He lost to Ragnar Blackmane, who has been a big deal in this game for longer than Ghaz has existed.

Yes who is, from reading reading this thread, a massive mary sue, which is saying something as most SM are mary sues already. It still means the biggest baddest guy we have is less than an ant before Primarchs so meh. I'm not begrudging SM chapters getting cool characters but if the best Orks can do is maybe, sortof, beat a SM captain I'm not interested in the fluff.

 Platuan4th wrote:

JWBS wrote:
If they brought Fulgrim into the setting, which Loyalist would they bring? I think, with Bile confirmed, that Fulgrim is possible, what with this and the other mentions of him that have been sprinkled into PA, and a new Loyalist Primarch is pretty much confirmed as part of the final big PA reveal as far as I'm concerned (The new Chris Wraight book has the line "Primarchs - I'm glad we only have to contend with one of them" halfway through chapter 2- this says to me 100% that there's a second Loyalist on the very near horizon).

Why would Fulgrim returning mean a Loyalist would come back? Didn't happen when Mortarion returned.

The line in the book is what confirms a Loyalist return for me. Plus it would be kinda weird having 3 Traitors to one Loyalist, so if it's only one it would necessarily be a Loyalist (but with Bile confirmed and Fulgrim frequently mentioned, I'm leaning towards two).

 DivineVisitor wrote:

 An Actual Englishman wrote:

For context gents, this is the equivalent of Kharn going toe to toe with Guilliman', or Calgar going toe to toe with Magnus, or Mephiston going toe to toe with Mortarion.

I suppose the most tragic thing is that now Ghazzy has been brought back from death he joins all those other 'immortal' characters that exist only to build up others such as Celestine, Swarmlord, the Avatar of Khaine and Skarbrand. Sad times.

The ones who seem to have a big issue with Ragnar dueling Ghaz to effectively a double KO seem to be those who believe the only ones that should be capable of going toe to toe with/besting Ghaz are those who are Primarchs or equivalent to them.

Ghaz is not on the level of a Primarch in terms of combat ability. Primarch's are not simply blessed by the gods like Ghaz. They are beings who are practically demi-gods. The only things that should be on a Primarch's level in terms of combat ability are the Greater Daemons, The Avatar and the C'tan who are each physical manifestations of 40k god's.

Not every faction has the equivalent of a; 'Primarch', infact most factions don't and that is ok. Not every faction needs to have an otherworldly combat demi-god.

In terms of combat ability and battle acumen Ghaz is on par with a Chapter Master so far as I'm concerned and as such Ragnar taking him on is not a stretch given his reputation as a warrior in the setting.

Hell knowing Ghaz he'll see it as all part of Gork and or Mork's plan and use the fact he has been shown to be practically invincible to bring more Orks to his cause.

There are two Orks that we know of that challenged Primarchs. One was the Ork warlord pre Heresy that Horus killed to become the favoured son. The other is "The Beast" who could've destroyed Terra at a whim and who gave Vulcan a serious run for his money. GW has repeatedly referred to Ghaz as "The Beast" during this entire campaign. If that isn't supposed to make us think he's on - or at least moving towards - Primarch level, I don't know what is. The model is also massive by the looks - bigger than Guilliman or Abaddon.

Either way, I'm not really explaining myself well I don't think. The point isn't whether it makes sense based on some "combat ability" score that we can somehow determine in some abstract way or whether it makes sense because Ragnar is quicker and lithe while Ghazzy is slow and ponderous. It's to do with what the character represents for his faction.

What Ragnar represents is the young, hopeful upstart of the Space Wolves. Impetuous, brash, proud and somewhat restless. If the story actually progressed it's likely he would eventually become Grimnar's replacement as Head Wolfy Super Wolf Icepelt Frostfang (or whatever they're called). That is as far as he can go. By definition, he will never be as great as his Primarch, Russ, because he is borne of him. He will never truly be the greatest Space Wolf, because that title will always live with the Primarch of the respective Chapter. As it is now, today (in the lore), he isn't even the second most respected in his Chapter.

What Ghaz represents is the culmination of what it is to be an Ork. He is the most threatening Ork in existence in the current setting bar none. He doesn't just represent the best "Goff" (as Russ is the greatest Space Wolf), he represents the greatest ORK (as a faction). There is no Ork above Ghaz and without his death, there never will be. I'd argue that Ghaz was one of the few enemies of mankind that was actually credible. He actually got stuff done, was one of the few "bad guys" to beat the heroes (Belial anyone?) and until very recently if he died he was dead.

This PA should be entitled "Ghaz's Worfing" because that's exactly what it looks like. We have the third, potentially one day second, most respected Space Wolf beating THE most respected Ork. This isn't only about losing a fight either, presumably Ragnar's tactics and cunning ploys will be enough to utterly stymie the Ork advance. We'll see and I hope to be wrong but everything so far (including previous PAs) indicate that the lore for this PA will be bland and inconsistent with all prior lore about at least one of the characters.




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 insaniak wrote:

 Castozor wrote:
I actually agree with AAE, if the biggest baddest Orc we have loses to some SM captain, no matter how skilled, it makes us jokes..

He didn't lose to 'some SM captain'... He lost to Ragnar Blackmane, who has been a big deal in this game for longer than Ghaz has existed.

Such a "big deal" his model wasn't looked at for 20 odd years?

 Castozor wrote:

Yes who is, from reading reading this thread, a massive mary sue, which is saying something as most SM are mary sues already. It still means the biggest baddest guy we have is less than an ant before Primarchs so meh. I'm not begrudging SM chapters getting cool characters but if the best Orks can do is maybe, sortof, beat a SM captain I'm not interested in the fluff.

Of course he's a Mary Sue. That's what Space Marines are. They're the biggest, baddest things in the galaxy, because they're the core force in a game that is designed around them.

That may be uninteresting, but it's pretty much the way things have been for the last 30 years.

JWBS wrote:

The line in the book is what confirms a Loyalist return for me.

I don't see how.

Plus it would be kinda weird having 3 Traitors to one Loyalist, so if it's only one it would necessarily be a Loyalist (but with Bile confirmed and Fulgrim frequently mentioned, I'm leaning towards two).

The only weird thing in this would be having that one loyalist primarch; there should be none. The chaos primarchs have existed in the fluff forever, so giving them models and rules makes perfect sense and is not a fluff abomination.