Psychic Awakening N&R

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**Sunny Side Up**

tulun wrote:
4 wounds max for per phase exists because they wanted their model to not be completely useless. Without it, Ghaz is a paperweight and is trash tier.

Any complaints over this rule should point to the stupidity of character protection, and how characters over 9 wounds typically is a death sentence.

Maybe. But characters of 9 wounds or less being completely uninteractive for many armies is just as dumb, especially if it isn’t just buff-caddies, but stuff with serious damage potential like Smash Captains, Daemon Princes, Chappy Dreads, Tau Commander, Smite-Batteries, etc..

Finding some middle ground between „instant-death“ and „cannot target“ should be major goal for a possible 9th Ed.

**tulun**

Sunny Side Up wrote:

Maybe. But characters of 9 wounds or less being completely uninteractive for many armies is just as dumb, especially if it isn’t just buff-caddies, but stuff with serious damage potential like Smash Captains, Daemon Princes, Chappy Dreads, Tau Commander, Smite-Batteries, etc..

Finding some middle ground between „instant-death“ and „cannot target“ should be major goal for a possible 9th Ed.

I 100% agree.

Character protection rules in 8th edition are among the worst rules, in my opinion. You either have snipers and can pressure characters (sometimes to an overwhelming extent, like Eliminators), or you have NOTHING that can target them (like Orks do).

I'm just saying this stupidity exists because they realized their fancy new Ghaz model would get tabled immediately without it. In fact, if he was 9 wounds and had a stable profile, that would probably make him generally better.

**JWBS**

tneva82 wrote:
JWBS wrote:
This looks like abad deal for pretty much everyone then. Me, a painter, who wants Ghaz, would quite like Ragnar, and is willing to take some extra stuff if it's at a discount, is looking at this box as an easy (but slightly annoyed) pass. I like marines, but I don't like those ones. They barely even look like marines, and I already have some that I don;t really want from the last marine box set I got. I'm assuming there are many people in this boat, ie people that don't want any more of those stealth marine, or marine analogues, or whatever they are. But then I also have to buy a load of Orks too. Maybe one unit of orks I could live with, but I'm displeased that it goes beyond that. This box is about as appealing as BotPhoenix. We're people defending that? I can't remember, I had just started buying stuff again and wasn't much interested in Eldar/DE. There seem to be a decent number of people trying to justify this box, for whatever reason. The fact that it's likely cheaper than BotP is really the only saving grace here, and that's still not enough really, considering how bad the reception for BotP was.

*shrug* you want just ghaz, you buy just ghaz.

It's like people are thinking this is only way ever you can get it.

Sheesh. So because some people think this is only way ever to get ghaz everybody else should be FORCED to buy models at higher price? Gee. Thanks. You are sooooooo compassionate. Sooooo considerate at other than yourself.

Are you trying to come across as psychotic here or something? Flat out saying that because I'm irritated by this offering, that I'm sooo some sort of sociopath. Sooo lacking compassion, and empathy, and sympathy.
Honestly, I really don't get you sometimes. Is this a character that you're doing? Or is it a compulsion? Dial it back a bit please, whether it's genuine or a sham, it's fairly weird either way.

**Coenus Scaldingus**

tneva82 wrote:
JWBS wrote:
This looks like abad deal for pretty much everyone then. Me, a painter, who wants Ghaz, would quite like Ragnar, and is willing to take some extra stuff if it's at a discount, is looking at this box as an easy (but slightly annoyed) pass. I like marines, but I don't like those ones. They barely even look like marines, and I already have some that I don;t really want from the last marine box set I got. I'm assuming there are many people in this boat, ie people that don't want any more of those stealth marine, or marine analogues, or whatever they are. But then I also have to buy a load of Orks too. Maybe one unit of orks I could live with, but I'm displeased that it goes beyond that. This box is about as appealing as BotPhoenix. We're people defending that? I can't remember, I had just started buying stuff again and wasn't much interested in Eldar/DE. There seem to be a decent number of people trying to justify this box, for whatever reason. The fact that it's likely cheaper than BotP is really the only saving grace here, and that's still not enough really, considering how bad the reception for BotP was.

*shrug* you want just ghaz, you buy just ghaz.

It's like people are thinking this is only way ever you can get it.

Sheesh. So because some people think this is only way ever to get ghaz everybody else should be FORCED to buy models at higher price? Gee. Thanks. You are sooooooo compassionate. Sooooo considerate at other than yourself.

If the savings were such a big draw, they could just release the discounted bundle and the separate comparatively higher priced new models simultaneously. Forcing (sorry, "FORCING") people to immediately go via the secondhand market to either buy the one figure they want, or sell the remaining figures they didn't want, or to wait a few months until are eventually released separately doesn't help customers either.

**deffrekka**

JWBS wrote:
tneva82 wrote:
JWBS wrote:
This looks like abad deal for pretty much everyone then. Me, a painter, who wants Ghaz, would quite like Ragnar, and is willing to take some extra stuff if it's at a discount, is looking at this box as an easy (but slightly annoyed) pass. I like marines, but I don't like those ones. They barely even look like marines, and I already have some that I don;t really want from the last marine box set I got. I'm assuming there are many people in this boat, ie people that don't want any more of those stealth marine, or marine analogues, or whatever they are. But then I also have to buy a load of Orks too. Maybe one unit of orks I could live with, but I'm displeased that it goes beyond that. This box is about as appealing as BotPhoenix. We're people defending that? I can't remember, I had just started buying stuff again and wasn't much interested in Eldar/DE. There seem to be a decent number of people trying to justify this box, for whatever reason. The fact that it's likely cheaper than BotP is really the only saving grace here, and that's still not enough really, considering how bad the reception for BotP was.

*shrug* you want just ghaz, you buy just ghaz.

It's like people are thinking this is only way ever you can get it.

Sheesh. So because some people think this is only way ever to get ghaz everybody else should be FORCED to buy models at higher price? Gee. Thanks. You are sooooooo compassionate. Sooooo considerate at other than yourself.

Are you trying to come across as psychotic here or something? Flat out saying that because I'm irritated by this offering, that I'm sooo some sort of sociopath. Sooo lacking compassion, and empathy, and sympathy.
Honestly, I really don't get you sometimes. Is this a character that you're doing? Or is it a compulsion? Dial it back a bit please, whether it's genuine or a sham, it's fairly weird either way.

He does this on every thread ive seen him on. Most of the time he is talking to himself as people dont tend to respond. If you say something he doesnt agree with thats when he chimes in, if you disagree with him this type of thing happens.

**BrianDavion**

JWBS wrote:
gungo wrote:
JSG wrote:
gungo wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Ragnar would easily be a $40 kit by himself, same as Shadowsun and the various Chapter heroes were.
Ghaz would easily be a $60 kit.

That's $100 right there. $30 for Nobz, $63 for Meganobz, $60 for the Infiltrator/Incursor kit.
Puts you at $253 in content for $185--savings of $68(probably would be more if Meganobz weren't in there to be honest).

Frankly, Ork players will be the ones getting shafted in terms of "making their money back"(which, IMO, is a terrible way to look at these kinds of things as it makes it sound like you expect to make back the whole amount rather than what you didn't want) since Ragnar's a $40 piece and Infiltrator/Incursor kit is $60 and people still don't seem to understand that the contents are different to the dirt cheap Shadowspear Infiltrators that are still floating around having been partsed out.
those are full msrp new in box retail prices not eBay prices! No one cares about that. It’s either they need the figures or they sell them on eBay to make their money back.

Infiltrators are 35$ on eBay not 60... I’m paying 168$ with tax at 20% discount for this set and selling the infiltrators for 35 or less after the market is flooded with them then trying to scalp Ragnar for as much as I can so I don’t incur a loss ... this set is horribly priced

Using ebay prices to justify claims that a discounted box is over priced? Have we just hit peak cope?

The point is this boxset is a horrid deal for orks who have no intention of playing drek marines! Even if I go discounted box set online I’m still paying 168$ plus tax maybe shipping then shifting infiltrators nobody Really needs at $35 (if prices don’t plummet) all for the glory to get ghaz and maybe some orks I really don’t need for $133 minus whatever I can scalp Ragnar for... thats a horrid deal no matter how you try to sugar coat it.

This looks like abad deal for pretty much everyone then. Me, a painter, who wants Ghaz, would quite like Ragnar, and is willing to take some extra stuff if it's at a discount, is looking at this box as an easy (but slightly annoyed) pass. I like marines, but I don't like those ones. They barely even look like marines, and I already have some that I don;t really want from the last marine box set I got. I'm assuming there are many people in this boat, ie people that don't want any more of those stealth marine, or marine analogues, or whatever they are. But then I also have to buy a load of Orks too. Maybe one unit of orks I could live with, but I'm displeased that it goes beyond that. This box is about as appealing as BotPhoenix. We're people defending that? I can't remember, I had just started buying stuff again and wasn't much interested in Eldar/DE. There seem to be a decent number of people trying to justify this box, for whatever reason. The fact that it's likely cheaper than BotP is really the only saving grace here, and that's still not enough really, considering how bad the reception for BotP was.

and I suspect many of us have no problems with them, when the infiltrator box came out I never grabbed one as it was lwoer priority, now I can get a squaf of incursors and some other nice stuff... seems good to me

**JohnnyHell**

BaconCatBug wrote:
Ok, so instead of a Volcano Cannon, let's use a QFB Coldstar. A single QFB Coldstar can wipe out a Knight or Baneblade in a single salvo, but somehow Ghaz can walk away practicably unscratched?

Because plot armour.

Because new mechanic being ported from AOS.

Because no matter how much you whine and pick different random examples the rules won’t change, so...

**Kanluwen**

You want to run Incursors in 5 mans if possible, letting you take the most advantage of the mines they have.

**Dudeface**

JohnnyHell wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Ok, so instead of a Volcano Cannon, let's use a QFB Coldstar. A single QFB Coldstar can wipe out a Knight or Baneblade in a single salvo, but somehow Ghaz can walk away practicably unscratched?

Because plot armour.

Because new mechanic being ported from AOS.

Because no matter how much you whine and pick different random examples the rules won’t change, so...

Weird how so many were outraged at Ragnar being able to fight him, but when it's Ghaz with the plot armour it's a put up and shut up moment.

**Darsath**

I think the rule about only being able to lose 4 wounds per phase is a terribly designed rule. It really does seem like Games Workshop didn't actually know how to make Ghazghkull strong enough to survive without being stupidly OP with the current core rules for characters, and this gamey rule was thrown in as the solution. It doesn't seem intuitive as a rule at all.

**Galas**

Is one of the most lacking boxes GW has produced. And one that isn't worth it to split 50/50 for a wolf player, a 33/66 for wolf/orks would be much more fair.

A shame because they are doing reasonable boxes for AoS. But in general they keep milking the cow that is 40k with things like the sisters of battle. Just compare those prices with the ones of Ossiarch Bonereapers. I mean is not like AoS is perfect, you have Idoneth Deepkin or Kharadron Overlords as an example, but still.

**Guyver 3**

Darsath wrote:
I think the rule about only being able to lose 4 wounds per phase is a terribly designed rule. It really does seem like Games Workshop didn't actually know how to make Ghazghkull strong enough to survive without being stupidly OP with the current core rules for characters, and this gamey rule was thrown in as the solution. It doesn't seem intuitive as a rule at all.

It’s not intuitive

Ghazzy was hot garbage without the rule so they had to give him something or no one would take him!

**BrianDavion**

Dudeface wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Ok, so instead of a Volcano Cannon, let's use a QFB Coldstar. A single QFB Coldstar can wipe out a Knight or Baneblade in a single salvo, but somehow Ghaz can walk away practicably unscratched?

Because plot armour.

Because new mechanic being ported from AOS.

Because no matter how much you whine and pick different random examples the rules won’t change, so...

Weird how so many were outraged at Ragnar being able to fight him, but when it's Ghaz with the plot armour it's a put up and shut up moment.

the people complaining about ragnar where complaining about the story whereas the people complaining about Ghaz are complaining about the rules. two differant groups of people, for the most part, with two very differant types of complaints.

BTW has we seen ragnar's new stats? I'm curious iuf we'll have the option of taking his wolf buddies still, since we've not seen a pair of wolves in the pic I'm guessing not. Ghaz proably kills them :( RIP

**VictorVonTzeentch**

BrianDavion wrote:
Dudeface wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Ok, so instead of a Volcano Cannon, let's use a QFB Coldstar. A single QFB Coldstar can wipe out a Knight or Baneblade in a single salvo, but somehow Ghaz can walk away practicably unscratched?

Because plot armour.

Because new mechanic being ported from AOS.

Because no matter how much you whine and pick different random examples the rules won’t change, so...

Weird how so many were outraged at Ragnar being able to fight him, but when it's Ghaz with the plot armour it's a put up and shut up moment.

the people complaining about ragnar where complaining about the story whereas the people complaining about Ghaz are complaining about the rules. two differant groups of people, for the most part, with two very differant types of complaints.

BTW has we seen ragnar's new stats? I'm curious iuf we'll have the option of taking his wolf buddies still, since we've not seen a pair of wolves in the pic I'm guessing not. Ghaz proably kills them :( RIP

Ghaz killing them is probably the whole reason Ragnar swears his vendetta.

**NinthMusketeer**

JohnnyHell wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Ok, so instead of a Volcano Cannon, let's use a QFB Coldstar. A single QFB Coldstar can wipe out a Knight or Baneblade in a single salvo, but somehow Ghaz can walk away practicably unscratched?

Because plot armour.

Because new mechanic being ported from AOS.

Because no matter how much you whine and pick different random examples the rules won’t change, so...

They used to have a rule for plot armor called "eternal warrior" as I recall.

**An Actual Englishman**

Dudeface wrote:
JohnnyHell wrote:
BaconCatBug wrote:
Ok, so instead of a Volcano Cannon, let's use a QFB Coldstar. A single QFB Coldstar can wipe out a Knight or Baneblade in a single salvo, but somehow Ghaz can walk away practicably unscratched?

Because plot armour.

Because new mechanic being ported from AOS.

Because no matter how much you whine and pick different random examples the rules won’t change, so...

Weird how so many were outraged at Ragnar being able to fight him, but when it's Ghaz with the plot armour it's a put up and shut up moment.

I don't think you understand what "plot armour" means.

Plot armour exists in the lore. Not on the tabletop. Hence the "plot" part. Don't get the two confused. It's why a random, no-name "Smash Captain" can kill Skarbrand. Or why a literally unnamed Grot can, in theory, kill Guilliman.

**JohnnyHell**

My post boiled down to “pick a reason to explain it to yourself, but it ain’t changing”. Though tbf the “thing ported from AoS” is likely the truth.

No need for the comprehension insults.

**SamusDrake**

BOTP does deserve some credit for being a 100% eldar set; Asuryani or Drukhari, Ynnari and mixed Eldar. It was just a shame it went a bit silly with the price and included mostly unnecessary models - some guardians and kabalites would have been decent enough, and the set would have been far more affordable.

If the Banshee and Incubi prices are anything to go by...I dunno, £60 for Ghaz and £25 for Makari. Good luck on that one guys.

**alextroy**

I see people stating the box will be £105. That's a 31% discount of retail (assuming I have Ragnar and Ghaz/Makari correct).

alextroy wrote:
Let's see:

Primaris Incursers £35
Primaris Character Estimate £25
Ork Nobs £17.50
Ork Metanobs £38
Centerpieces Character Estimate £37.50
Total value £153

So I'm thinking £110 to £120 for a 25-30% discount.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

Not sure if this was posted already:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/03/16/ragnar-and-ghazghkull-through-the-agesgw-homepage-post-3/
But for me it emphasize two things:
- Woah, Gazhkull first mega-armor model was really awesome, still is.
- You can take the Frenchman out of France, but you cannot take the French account out of the Frenchman lol I love it!!

**gungo**

the_scotsman wrote:
tulun wrote:
4 wounds max for per phase exists because they wanted their model to not be completely useless. Without it, Ghaz is a paperweight and is trash tier.

Any complaints over this rule should point to the stupidity of character protection, and how characters over 9 wounds typically is a death sentence.

it is a useful bandaid over the gigantic arterial bleed that is 8th edition's general mortality rate.

40k just isn't fun when armies can be tabled extremely easily in 3 turns by an optimized list.

I’d say it would have been more interactive if ghaz rule wasn’t a cap on damage per phase but reducing all damage to 1.... this is noticeably weaker alternative then the cap and it means ghaz can die in the first turn of shooting with enough Dakka however it’s better for the game overall. I don’t like the invulnerable rule for the health of the game and like everyone else said this will undoubtably roll downhill to every avatar, Deamon prince and primarch... and it’s just bad design...

Give ghaz toughness 7 2+sv 4++ and a 5+ fnp with reduction of damage to 1 per hit and he would still be decent. If his survivability was still an issue just allow painboys to heal him.

**Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl**

So you want to make multi-damage weapons irrelevant? My poor meltas :(.

**Jidmah**

gungo wrote:
I’d say it would have been more interactive if ghaz rule wasn’t a cap on damage per phase but reducing all damage to 1.... this is noticeably weaker alternative then the cap and it means ghaz can die in the first turn of shooting with enough Dakka however it’s better for the game overall. I don’t like the invulnerable rule for the health of the game and like everyone else said this will undoubtably roll downhill to every avatar, Deamon prince and primarch... and it’s just bad design...

Give ghaz toughness 7 2+sv 4++ and a 5+ fnp with reduction of damage to 1 per hit and he would still be decent. If his survivability was still an issue just allow painboys to heal him.

You do realize that you are asking to change to rule so you can shoot him off the board in one turn, right? That's the opposite of interactive. You are asking for a way to prevent having to interact with him.

Right now, you should be able to kill him with any decent army in two turns by shooting him, assaulting him and dealing mortal wounds in movement, psychic or assault phase.

**Eldarain**

It's a necessary measure given how out of control lethality is.
It's very much indicative of the bandaids on top of bandaids approach they've had to take.

**BrianDavion**

Jidmah wrote:
gungo wrote:
I’d say it would have been more interactive if ghaz rule wasn’t a cap on damage per phase but reducing all damage to 1.... this is noticeably weaker alternative then the cap and it means ghaz can die in the first turn of shooting with enough Dakka however it’s better for the game overall. I don’t like the invulnerable rule for the health of the game and like everyone else said this will undoubtably roll downhill to every avatar, Deamon prince and primarch... and it’s just bad design...

Give ghaz toughness 7 2+sv 4++ and a 5+ fnp with reduction of damage to 1 per hit and he would still be decent. If his survivability was still an issue just allow painboys to heal him.

You do realize that you are asking to change to rule so you can shoot him off the board in one turn, right? That's the opposite of interactive. You are asking for a way to prevent having to interact with him.

Right now, you should be able to kill him with any decent army in two turns by shooting him, assaulting him and dealing mortal wounds in movement, psychic or assault phase.

apparently wanting people to actually get some use out of the 60 dollar centerpiece they bought is horriable.

honestly I'd like to see MORE units with this kinda rule.

**Galas**

I mean this is basically the same rule as resurecction habilities for Celestine and Guilliman , but manifested in a different form. The result is the same.

Ghazkull needs it even more because he has 12 wounds.

**BrianDavion**

Galas wrote:
I mean this is basically the same rule as resurecction habilities for Celestine and Guilliman , but manifested in a different form. The result is the same.

Ghazkull needs it even more because he has 12 wounds.

yeah I dunno why people find this objectionable, it's hardly the only time someone's had boosts "cause gods!"

you have celestine, hell the entire SOB army, various chaos stuff, I see nothing wrong with Ghaz getting a rule to reflect leading a, literally, charmed life

**Galas**

I mean Makari has a 2++ explained basically "because reasons" and nobody finds that a grot with a better invulnerable save than a fething relic leviathan dreadnought or a Demon Primarchs is absurd. Or it is toxic for the game. I'll tell you something: This same rule has been given to Morathi in AoS and it has generated 0 problems, and in that game lethality at range is much inferior than in 40k.

**gungo**

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So you want to make multi-damage weapons irrelevant? My poor meltas :(.

If your shooting characters with multi Meltas your doing it wrong...plus nothing says irrelevant like all weapons doing zero damage after the initial 4!

**xttz**

BrianDavion wrote:

apparently wanting people to actually get some use out of the 60 dollar centerpiece they bought is horriable.

honestly I'd like to see MORE units with this kinda rule.

100% agree. It's nice to see an alternative to the arbitrary character protection rule so players can field medium units like this. Giving Ghaz 9 wounds would have been silly. It shouldn't be a buff to start with fewer wounds.