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 silent25 wrote:
2020 is not 2005 and trying to stand out is a lot harder.

Exactly. How many "lifestyle" games can a miniature gamer afford? I've been picking up dead miniature games for the sculpts, and, even then, I'm dropping $50-$100 per game line. Looks like Warcaster has a $130 buy-in for two factions. How much more will this game cost for someone dedicated to a miniatures game? And will there be that critical mass you need so that you're not the only person you know who's spent all this money on a game? I picked up the PP "grab bag" during the holidays, and liked the sculpts. But they're still sitting in the closet because I have several thousand other unpainted miniatures in the house.

 ced1106 wrote:

 silent25 wrote:
2020 is not 2005 and trying to stand out is a lot harder.

Exactly. How many "lifestyle" games can a miniature gamer afford? I've been picking up dead miniature games for the sculpts, and, even then, I'm dropping $50-$100 per game line. Looks like Warcaster has a $130 buy-in for two factions. How much more will this game cost for someone dedicated to a miniatures game? And will there be that critical mass you need so that you're not the only person you know who's spent all this money on a game? I picked up the PP "grab bag" during the holidays, and liked the sculpts. But they're still sitting in the closet because I have several thousand other unpainted miniatures in the house.

I hear you. There was a clearance sale of some of the Wrath of Kings stuff over at Miniature Market this week, and a couple kits I had been eyeing were at 1/7th the retail cost. I still passed knowing the stuff will likely be gone forever, but because I have so much stuff in the pile the shame of shame, even limited stuff is being passed on by me.

Still looking at this, feel PP started on the wrong foot with the Iron Alliance. Looking at Aeternus, they should have been the opposite faction to the Marchers. They have a more distinctive style to go with the digital and dust look of the Marchers. And like the Marchers the more I see them. While the first look of them made me think of Tau (color and box guns), the mix of tech and rags is a nice mix. The Iron Alliance just looks like Infinity ripoffs.

Still they made their goal, so hopefully this is more than enough to keep PP running. From what I had heard from people still close to PP, MiniCrate was their main source of income these days. WMH had become pocket change.This was before the launch of MonPoc, but seeing how that is doing now, it is still likely the case.

looks like per the FAQ stores are getting the short end of the stick -- PP is only sending them stretch goals of one bundle for each faction, not each starter. So if 18 people order from the store and every faction is accounted for, the store will have 3 sets of stretch goals to parcel out. My FLGS owner is writing them tomorrow, not happy. We as a group understand PP is making less, but damn ... we want to support our shop but still get the cool stuff. It's frustrating.

 AegisGrimm wrote:
Well, of all the things that could be a problem with miniatures, no holes pre-drilled for magnetizing options is a pretty First-World problem.

I mean, nowadays such things are just a sign of the times, but "Back in my day" gamers just shrugged and did industrious things like that themselves, rather than having it be a black mark against a company's product.

To me, more variety in sculpts are more important, because that's something I can't do.

Honestly, while it may be "first world" problem, toy-soldier games are a first-world product to begin with. I think it's not unreasonable to expect companies to improve their products instead of going "well, when I got my first table saw it had no security switch, we just lost our limbs and liked it" to someone pointing out an obvious feature

I take it Menoth didn't survive into this setting then? I loved the Protectorate's fluff and had hoped to see something akin to them in this, because I love theocratic factions.

There's a poll on Reddit with a decent number of responses as to which faction people will pick up. I was absolutely floored to see Iron Star Alliance wwaaayy down at the bottom. I expected them to be up at the top, what with the 'clean' knighly-aesthetic, bright colours and being the Nasty Imperialist Evil Empire(tm).

Im surprised nobody has brought up the retailer angle. I'm in a number of group chats and forums with retailers nationwide and can say that I've seen very little in the way of interest or support from retailers for this game. The general sentiment seems to be "Privateer Press is cutting me out of being able to make any money on this product line by going direct with Kickstarter, so I won't be carrying their game in my store".

This could change if the game turns into a huge hit of course, but for the most part tabletop wargames live and die by their retail presence - this is why games like AoS and 40k are so successful (as well as WMHDs in the past), and why games like Blood and Plunder and Dropzone Commander remain niche hobby games that most people will never see played in person outside of a convention. As of time of writing, a total of 34 retail pledges have been made - which is dismally low (especially taken in comparison to the 1500 "consumer" tier pledges that have been made). If you assume all 34 retailer pledges are in the US, thats less than 1 per state - I expect there may well be entire regions of the country without any retail presence for this game whatsoever.

Interestingly, that makes me a bit more interested in pledging. I had been content to sit this out, as I have learned from experience that backing this sort of game on Kickstarter usually means that I overpaid for a product line that was dead on arrival which I could have purchased at bargain basement prices 6 months after release online. The fact that so few stores have hopped on board makes me think that we won't see the typical drastic over-supply of product that typically outstrips demand and forces products into clearance.

Then again, I get a standing discount of 25% off at my LFGS, so I'd probably be overpaying anyway.

I'm going to ask my store about getting stuff, even if not through the KS. For the campaign, they mentioned things needed to be bought in case quantities (6 of each item) to qualify for retailer discount. But that can't be the case for later, normal retailer orders, right? 6 is a lot if you want to carry more than just starter sets, if you're taking a risk and trying to establish a new game in the local community. Curious to hear if any retailers know one way or the other?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Im surprised nobody has brought up the retailer angle. I'm in a number of group chats and forums with retailers nationwide and can say that I've seen very little in the way of interest or support from retailers for this game. The general sentiment seems to be "Privateer Press is cutting me out of being able to make any money on this product line by going direct with Kickstarter, so I won't be carrying their game in my store".

This could change if the game turns into a huge hit of course, but for the most part tabletop wargames live and die by their retail presence - this is why games like AoS and 40k are so successful (as well as WMHDs in the past), and why games like Blood and Plunder and Dropzone Commander remain niche hobby games that most people will never see played in person outside of a convention. As of time of writing, a total of 34 retail pledges have been made - which is dismally low (especially taken in comparison to the 1500 "consumer" tier pledges that have been made). If you assume all 34 retailer pledges are in the US, thats less than 1 per state - I expect there may well be entire regions of the country without any retail presence for this game whatsoever.

Interestingly, that makes me a bit more interested in pledging. I had been content to sit this out, as I have learned from experience that backing this sort of game on Kickstarter usually means that I overpaid for a product line that was dead on arrival which I could have purchased at bargain basement prices 6 months after release online. The fact that so few stores have hopped on board makes me think that we won't see the typical drastic over-supply of product that typically outstrips demand and forces products into clearance.

Then again, I get a standing discount of 25% off at my LFGS, so I'd probably be overpaying anyway.

Thats a weird take for retailers. From what I can tell the discount that retailers are getting is the same or better than what they would get through a distributor. They have to order it directly from the company instead of the distributor (which retailers hate doing), but because of that they have a MUCH better chance of getting what they ordered (distributors often don't have items in stock and have a bad habit of subbing in other products if the product you want isn't currently available).

As far as I can see the only downside for retailers is having to order directly instead of through their distributor. As I said before, most retailers hate that, and not for nothing. Retail stores often order hundreds of distinct products every month, and having one or two distributors to order from makes it easy and helps save on shipping costs. So a lot of retailers won't even consider ordering anything thats not available through their distributor.

But in reality, ordering directly from PP or any other publisher isn't hard. In fact, its often barely any extra work at all*. I've been working in the industry for over 15 years, on both sides of this, so I know. If a store doesn't want to order directly from a company its often because the company isn't offering a good discount, or the company isn't delivering their product on time. That doesn't appear to be the case here at all. So that leaves convenience. And ordering a game directly from the publisher isn't actually a very big inconvenience at all. It usually only takes about 20-30 minutes a month. *Of course, if a retailer is doing that for 20 different companies it really adds up, and that by itself has led many, many retailers to stick JUST with what their distributor can provide.

The thing is, this approach PP is using isn't new, and its become more and more common over the last 10 years. In fact, while distributors are really valuable for opening up markets and connecting publishers with new stores, a LOT of companies would prefer to deal directly with stores when they can. Once a relationship is established, the company can cut out the distributor and save money on both shipping and warehousing while getting a bigger return and providing the store with the same or better discount. That arrangement doesn't work for every publisher and every store of course, and its something that distributors try hard to dissuade, but more and more companies are pursuing direct sales, and its very likely to become more and more common in the future.

To your second point, it seems like PP have specifically planned this Kickstarter to NOT create a huge glut of extra starters. Someone mentioned Wrath of Kings earlier (was that you? Anyway, I'm sure you know what I'm about to say). That game faced the problem of there being so many cheap starters available that interested players simply skipped buying at retail and instead bought heavily discounted on ebay. Which led to retailers giving up on the line, and eventually dumping their product to deep discounters (which accelerated the problem). PP seems to be trying to avoid this by specifically selling at retail prices and making sure that retail store who order through Kickstarter get theirs at the same time as everyone else (and can offer their standard discounts, making purchasing from them more attractive). Its a smart approach.

Honestly, if I were still working in retail I'd be going out of my way to hype my customers on this project.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'd also suggest that the sentiment "but for the most part tabletop wargames live and die by their retail presence" is far less true than it used to be (although theres still a LOT of truth in it).

The market is changing, and retail stores are becoming less of a component. Far less people buy their miniatures games from retail stores now than they used to, and far less people rely on finding other players at those stores than they used to.

Retail stores are still great and vital for many games of course, but we've already started to see games that establish a foothold without much retail presence (Infinity is a good example, a game that became popular in the US well before it was available in many stores here). I think that this will continue to be the case, and more and more companies will be making their games with the assumption that stores mostly won't be stocking them.

chaos0xomega wrote:Im surprised nobody has brought up the retailer angle. I'm in a number of group chats and forums with retailers nationwide and can say that I've seen very little in the way of interest or support from retailers for this game. The general sentiment seems to be "Privateer Press is cutting me out of being able to make any money on this product line by going direct with Kickstarter, so I won't be carrying their game in my store".

Most will carry it after it hits the distribution chain just they do so many other products like pretty much anything from CMON if people play it.

jake wrote:Thats a weird take for retailers. From what I can tell the discount that retailers are getting is the same or better than what they would get through a distributor. they have to order it directly from the company instead of the distributor (which retailers hate doing), but because of that they have a MUCH better chance of getting what they ordered (distributors often don't have items in stock and have a bad habit of subbing in other products if the product you want isn't currently available).

As far as i can see the only downside for retailers is having to order directly instead of through their distributor. as I said before, most retailers hate that, and not for nothing. Retail stores often order hundreds of products every month, and having one or two distributors to order from makes it easy and helps save on shipping costs. So a lot of retailers won't even consider ordering anything thats not available through their distributor.

The only downside? I'm guessing that you have never backed a kickstarter from a known company that has bellyflopped whether temporarily or permanently due to some point on the spectrum from incompetence to greed. IIRC (admittedly my info is out of date) stores typically only get charged when the product is shipped from distributors or sometimes have 30-60 day grace periods which include a return possibility as well whereas with KS you pay upfront for a product that optimistically will arrive 6 months after the date stated with no returns. I don't think PP will fail to deliver but it would be stupid to think that there is zero chance of it happening. At best, they're paying many months in advance for a product instead of right before or after it arrives. That's a downside in my book when you're running a business with small margins to begin with that is struggling to remain relevant. YMMV.

Thats a weird take for retailers. From what I can tell the discount that retailers are getting is the same or better than what they would get through a distributor. they have to order it directly from the company instead of the distributor (which retailers hate doing), but because of that they have a MUCH better chance of getting what they ordered (distributors often don't have items in stock and have a bad habit of subbing in other products if the product you want isn't currently available).

As far as i can see the only downside for retailers is having to order directly instead of through their distributor. as I said before, most retailers hate that, and not for nothing. Retail stores often order hundreds of products every month, and having one or two distributors to order from makes it easy and helps save on shipping costs. So a lot of retailers won't even consider ordering anything thats not available through their distributor.

Its not weird at all. The piece you are missing/don't seem to understand is that games like this are very niche and have very limited demand. In most cases, tabletop games (in general) meet or exceed the demand for the product while on kickstarter and retailers struggle to sell the product in stores afterwards as a result. This is why most kickstarter games are generally available on clearance a few months after release at most major online retailers (if they are even available through retialers at all) - those products don't sell because everyone who would have bought it already has it courtesy of the direct-to-consumers model of kickstarter. As a result of this, retailers are increasingly reluctant to support kickstarter games or order them in, which has lead to all sorts of supply problems within the industry - publishers forecast retail demand based on the demand for the product on kickstarter, if the game explodes in popularity they will usually sell out near-instantly because they simply didn't print enough copies to meet that level of interest and often have to run a kickstarter for a reprint of the game. If retailers go in heavy on a kickstarter and the game turns into a lame duck publishers and retailers end up with a glut of product that they struggle to move sitting on their shelves. A lot of retailers increasingly view Kickstarter games as speculative investments ("I can make a lot of money if the popularity and demand for this game explodes once backers receive it") which is further exacerbating these issues as retailers tend to be conservative as to what they are willing to bet on, and a lot of the time those bets are informed by the companies previous track record, i.e. "Gloomhaven turned out to be such a huge deal that I would be crazy not to order in 20 copies of Founders of Gloomhaven" - and now Founders of Gloomhaven is selling for pennies on the dollar everywhere because the game sucked and retailers bought ridiculous quantities of the game thinking they would have another hit on their hands.

But I digress, point is retailers are not generally fans of kickstarter to begin with, and the decision to make Warcaster a recurring Kickstarter game has alienated retailers as a result. Also,despite everyones insistance that the Warcaster kickstarter has been some sort of big success, the numbers don't really support that. The game is currently looking to finish between The Other Side and Wrath of Kings in terms of backer numbers and $ total, which isn't particularly great company to be in. Contrast this to a game like A Song of Ice & Fire which is one of the few "lifestyle" type games that started on kickstarter and has met success at retail, with almost 10k backers and $1.7 million pledged. Taken with PPs recent history and WMHDs beinga clearance rack game for the past 2-3 years, retailers see it as an uphill battle for them to climb in terms of getting their money back from sales.

Also, retailers *hate* distributors - especially Alliance which has developed a horrible reputation amongst retailers for their gakky business practices. Retailers use distributors more because the alternatives to doing so are limited (and in some cases there are no alternatives due to exclusivity agreements), not because its necessarily the way they want to do business. As you said, ordering direct from a company doesn't take a lot of minutes, but if you have to order from 50+ different ones it eats up your time quick. Games Workshop is basically the only company in the industry that works that way because its the only one big enough that retailers can justify the time investment. Asmodee would probably also fall into that category if they weren't distributing exclusively through Alliance.

The thing is, this approach PP is using isn't new, and its become more and more common over the last 10 years.

Just because it isn't new doesn't necessarily mean its a successful business model. I have something like 150 board games and miniatures games that I've purchased on kickstarter on my shelves right now at home. Only about 20% of those games are or were available in retail stores at some point, and quite a few of those were considered a "dead on arrival" product by retailers because even though the kickstarter might have pulled in a million + dollars the game simply didn't sell once they got the game in stock. Sure, there are exceptions to this, games like Zombicide and Blood Rage and Vast and Root which get a huge burst in popularity once they release and it flies off the shelf faster than the publisher can print them, but this has generally been the exception rather than the rule.

 warboss wrote:

jake wrote:Thats a weird take for retailers. From what I can tell the discount that retailers are getting is the same or better than what they would get through a distributor. they have to order it directly from the company instead of the distributor (which retailers hate doing), but because of that they have a MUCH better chance of getting what they ordered (distributors often don't have items in stock and have a bad habit of subbing in other products if the product you want isn't currently available).

As far as i can see the only downside for retailers is having to order directly instead of through their distributor. as I said before, most retailers hate that, and not for nothing. Retail stores often order hundreds of products every month, and having one or two distributors to order from makes it easy and helps save on shipping costs. So a lot of retailers won't even consider ordering anything thats not available through their distributor.

The only downside? I'm guessing that you have never backed a kickstarter from a known company that has bellyflopped whether temporarily or permanently due to some point on the spectrum from incompetence to greed. IIRC (admittedly my info is out of date) stores typically only get charged when the product is shipped from distributors or sometimes have 30-60 day grace periods which include a return possibility as well whereas with KS you pay upfront for a product that optimistically will arrive 6 months after the date stated with no returns. I don't think PP will fail to deliver but it would be stupid to think that there is zero chance of it happening. At best, they're paying many months in advance for a product instead of right before or after it arrives. That's a downside in my book when you're running a business with small margins to begin with that is struggling to remain relevant. YMMV.

Retailers also have the option to order after the Kickstarter is finished and the product is ready to ship, and those that do (according to PP) will receive their product shortly after retailers who support the kickstarter. so thats not a risk at all. Thats why I didn't list it as a downside. if anything, the kickstarter seems to be structured to specifically allow retailers to gauge interest in the product and then order later and still get the product as the game is being released.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Thats a weird take for retailers. From what I can tell the discount that retailers are getting is the same or better than what they would get through a distributor. they have to order it directly from the company instead of the distributor (which retailers hate doing), but because of that they have a MUCH better chance of getting what they ordered (distributors often don't have items in stock and have a bad habit of subbing in other products if the product you want isn't currently available).

As far as i can see the only downside for retailers is having to order directly instead of through their distributor. as I said before, most retailers hate that, and not for nothing. Retail stores often order hundreds of products every month, and having one or two distributors to order from makes it easy and helps save on shipping costs. So a lot of retailers won't even consider ordering anything thats not available through their distributor.

Its not weird at all. The piece you are missing/don't seem to understand is that games like this are very niche and have very limited demand. In most cases, tabletop games (in general) meet or exceed the demand for the product while on kickstarter and retailers struggle to sell the product in stores afterwards as a result. This is why most kickstarter games are generally available on clearance a few months after release at most major online retailers (if they are even available through retialers at all) - those products don't sell because everyone who would have bought it already has it courtesy of the direct-to-consumers model of kickstarter. As a result of this, retailers are increasingly reluctant to support kickstarter games or order them in, which has lead to all sorts of supply problems within the industry - publishers forecast retail demand based on the demand for the product on kickstarter, if the game explodes in popularity they will usually sell out near-instantly because they simply didn't print enough copies to meet that level of interest and often have to run a kickstarter for a reprint of the game. If retailers go in heavy on a kickstarter and the game turns into a lame duck publishers and retailers end up with a glut of product that they struggle to move sitting on their shelves. A lot of retailers increasingly view Kickstarter games as speculative investments ("I can make a lot of money if the popularity and demand for this game explodes once backers receive it") which is further exacerbating these issues as retailers tend to be conservative as to what they are willing to bet on, and a lot of the time those bets are informed by the companies previous track record, i.e. "Gloomhaven turned out to be such a huge deal that I would be crazy not to order in 20 copies of Founders of Gloomhaven" - and now Founders of Gloomhaven is selling for pennies on the dollar everywhere because the game sucked and retailers bought ridiculous quantities of the game thinking they would have another hit on their hands.

But I digress, point is retailers are not generally fans of kickstarter to begin with, and the decision to make Warcaster a recurring Kickstarter game has alienated retailers as a result. Also,despite everyones insistance that the Warcaster kickstarter has been some sort of big success, the numbers don't really support that. The game is currently looking to finish between The Other Side and Wrath of Kings in terms of backer numbers and $ total, which isn't particularly great company to be in. Contrast this to a game like A Song of Ice & Fire which is one of the few "lifestyle" type games that started on kickstarter and has met success at retail, with almost 10k backers and $1.7 million pledged. Taken with PPs recent history and WMHDs beinga clearance rack game for the past 2-3 years, retailers see it as an uphill battle for them to climb in terms of getting their money back from sales.

I'm neither missing that point or misunderstanding it. You said that retailers seem to feel that PP is cutting them out of sales. but thats not whats happening at all. instead, PP seems to be going out of its way to make sure this product launch is retailer friendly. they are purposely choosing a a more retailer friendly approach than most other games that launch on Kickstarter. retailers may be upset that the game is launching with a Kickstarter instead of a pure retail release, but they should also realize that very few games can launch with a pure retail release these days, especially since many retailers won't carry a new game at all unless it has some kind of proven track record. As has already been mentioned there are just too many games of this type for a retailer to carry everything, so they have to pick and choose. Which means publishers can't count on retail sales. they need to be able to make their own way. Kickstarter has become a proven way to do this.

Kickstarter (and similar platforms) will continue to be how more and more small and midsize games get released. Retailers can choose to get on board with this or not (and thats neither good nor bad, and certainly up to each individual store). But I maintain that its a weird take to say that PP is cutting retailers out when they seem to be trying hard to make this launch retailer friendly by selling at retail prices, offering industry standard discounts and making sure product is available at launch to retailers whether they participated in the Kickstarter or not. I'm not sure what more PP could do.

 jake wrote:

Retailers also have the option to order after the Kickstarter is finished and the product is ready to ship, and those that do (according to PP) will receive their product shortly after retailers who support the kickstarter. so thats not a risk at all. Thats why I didn't list it as a downside. if anything, the kickstarter seems to be structured to specifically allow retailers to gauge interest in the product and then order later and still get the product as the game is being released.

I wasn't aware of that and it does significantly diminish that particular risk. There are other reasons why (most sales happening within the first month which equates to kickstarter funding with a much smaller tail unless it blows up) but at least they're doing that.

chaos0xomega wrote:

The thing is, this approach PP is using isn't new, and its become more and more common over the last 10 years.

Just because it isn't new doesn't necessarily mean its a successful business model. I have something like 150 board games and miniatures games that I've purchased on kickstarter on my shelves right now at home. Only about 20% of those games are or were available in retail stores at some point, and quite a few of those were considered a "dead on arrival" product by retailers because even though the kickstarter might have pulled in a million + dollars the game simply didn't sell once they got the game in stock. Sure, there are exceptions to this, games like Zombicide and Blood Rage and Vast and Root which get a huge burst in popularity once they release and it flies off the shelf faster than the publisher can print them, but this has generally been the exception rather than the rule.

This is way off track from the point I was trying to make, but its worth pointing out that many "dead on arrival' games were actually very successful (and of course, many were not). Just because a game doesn't continue to sell and find a retail niche after a Kickstarter doesn't mean it wasn't successful. Sometimes sales through kickstarter are more than enough to be successful, and everything else is gravy. Similarly, there have been some Kickstarter games that never sought a retail presence and have continued to be successful. Kingdom Death comes to mind and is probably the biggest example. In any case, my point here is that publishers often have very different goals for their game during a Kickstarter and after a Kickstarter. The games you're mentioning here "Song of Ice and Fire, Root, Zombicide) are like Kickstarter greatest hits. But you don't need a greatest hit to be successful. of course, PP IS almost certainly looking for that kind of staying power with this game.

I think its also worth pointing out that the vast majority of games, no matter whether they launch on Kickstarter or not, are not successful. A 20% success rate is about industry standard.

I want to get back to my actual point. What I was trying to say is that the way publishers are producing games is changing, and Kickstarter and self distribution are becoming a much larger part of that (and more and more games are actually finding success with it). Retailers need to adjust to that, and publishers who want to keep retail business need to help them. And PP seems to be trying to do that.

To me it looks like PP is taking a very different approach than most publishers who bring their games to Kickstarter (where the typical concern is to sell as much as possible in order to fund the game and make money,and any availability to retailers is a secondary goal) . They're planning for ongoing product every 4 months through Kickstarter and retail, with monthly or bimonthly retail releases for stores that don't buy in to the kickstarter. And they're structuring everything to be retail friendly. Those are good signs for establishing the game and for long term growth. Of course, the project may crash and burn, or may never find a player base, but so far they seem to be doing everything fairly right.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 jake wrote:

Retailers also have the option to order after the Kickstarter is finished and the product is ready to ship, and those that do (according to PP) will receive their product shortly after retailers who support the kickstarter. so thats not a risk at all. Thats why I didn't list it as a downside. if anything, the kickstarter seems to be structured to specifically allow retailers to gauge interest in the product and then order later and still get the product as the game is being released.

I wasn't aware of that and it does significantly diminish that particular risk. There are other reasons why (most sales happening within the first month which equates to kickstarter funding with a much smaller tail unless it blows up) but at least they're doing that.

I suspect their plan is to use the first Kickstarter to establish the line, with the expectation that their future sales will be split between enthusiastic early adopters who use Kickstarter and fans who want to wait and see or just buy what they want at retail a few months later (at release). Thats not really an approach I've seen another company take, but in theory its really sound for both PP and retailers. IF they can convince retailers to actually carry the game.

If retailers don't carry the game (and the game is successful), I think you're right that most sales will end up coming through the Kickstarters. That may work out just fine for PP, but it will be too bad for retailers.

I personally think we're moving into an era where a game doesn't have to have a large retail presence to be successful. But a large retail presence is till worth pursing, especially for a game like this.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Anyway, I'm not super interested in debating about their approach with this kickstarter and discussing it more (I feel like its a rabbit hole i could go down deep, especially since there are other people here who have interesting contrasting opinions). I already said what i wanted to say, and I may be totally wrong. So I'll leave what I said and probably won't continue with this particular conversation. These are just my opinions base don my own experience in the industry (and I appreciate hearing the contrasting opinions).

But... as someone who has literally never been interested in anything PP has done I'm finding their approach here extremely interesting, and I'm really curious how it will turn out. Even if this game doesn't take off i suspect this will be an approach other companies will mimick in the next few years.

Retailers don't want to buy direct because distributors give them 10 net 30 terms and volume discounts. This is why a lot of stores will give you a discount for preordering from them.

I can't imagine any retailer ever wanting to kickstart a project like this unless they have a group of players in the store that have essentially bought in ahead of time.

Checked it out, but it’s just not grabbing me at all. Good luck to Privateer, but I’m ‘out’ on this one. I don’t find the game, minis, or fluff compelling in any way. Too many other places I could spend $$$s these days than trying to get another game started up that will likely be ignored when it does release. We are definitely spoiled for choice these days, and while that is overall a nice thing, it means a lot of good games are effectively DOA along with all the other chaff that comes out of Kickstarter.

 jake wrote:

I suspect their plan is to use the first Kickstarter to establish the line, with the expectation that their future sales will be split between enthusiastic early adopters who use Kickstarter and fans who want to wait and see or just buy what they want at retail a few months later (at release). Thats not really an approach I've seen another company take, but in theory its really sound for both PP and retailers. IF they can convince retailers to actually carry the game.

If retailers don't carry the game (and the game is successful), I think you're right that most sales will end up coming through the Kickstarters. That may work out just fine for PP, but it will be too bad for retailers.

I personally think we're moving into an era where a game doesn't have to have a large retail presence to be successful. But a large retail presence is till worth pursing, especially for a game like this.
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Their plan is laid out in the initial kickstarter update- every 4 month cycle will be a new kickstarter. The plan isn't to establish the line and then switch to a normal sales model, the plan is for kickstarter to be the primary sales model- even for retailers.

And if that doesn't work out, the experiment is over and they haven't really risked or lost anything (financially, anyway).
Wilson was pretty up front about the plan.

Voss wrote:
[Their plan is laid out in the initial kickstarter update- every 4 month cycle will be a new kickstarter. The plan isn't to establish the line and then switch to a normal sales model, the plan is for kickstarter to be the primary sales model- even for retailers.

And if that doesn't work out, the experiment is over and they haven't really risked or lost anything (financially, anyway).
Wilson was pretty up front about the plan.

The risk is that this continues to make them look weak financially and that if the game flops at Kickstarter 3 when the game is less than a year old it makes them look bad at reading the market which will further isolate them from getting back into the LGS scene. The metal models that don't come ready to magnetize also make them look lazy.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

Voss wrote:
[Their plan is laid out in the initial kickstarter update- every 4 month cycle will be a new kickstarter. The plan isn't to establish the line and then switch to a normal sales model, the plan is for kickstarter to be the primary sales model- even for retailers.

And if that doesn't work out, the experiment is over and they haven't really risked or lost anything (financially, anyway).
Wilson was pretty up front about the plan.

The risk is that this continues to make them look weak financially and that if the game flops at Kickstarter 3 when the game is less than a year old it makes them look bad at reading the market which will further isolate them from getting back into the LGS scene. The metal models that don't come ready to magnetize also make them look lazy.

Not to mention the material itself. Privateer is rubbing shoulders on KS with boutique resin and even tiny miniature companies doing hard plastic (heck even Heavy Gear got their plastics funded). It just seems like they haven't kept up with the times.

Got potential. If they somehow get people playing it around here, I might join in. That is a big IF. If I have to organize games myself, I'll stick to what I already have.


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Maybe they should have done what 40K did to get its start... and made a space game you could play with your fantasy miniatures plus a few add ons.

 ScarletRose wrote:

Not to mention the material itself. Privateer is rubbing shoulders on KS with boutique resin and even tiny miniature companies doing hard plastic (heck even Heavy Gear got their plastics funded). It just seems like they haven't kept up with the times.

But, again, this assumes that plastic should be the default that every company is aiming for, and that's simply not the case. Some gamers don't want plastic. And resin isn't suited for a lot of sculpts. Resin/metal hybrids are a thing, but mixing materials is potentially confusing for new modelers, and the usual breakup there is resin for the body and metal for weapons and other pointy bits... which doesn't actually achieve anything much over an all-metal model, other than to make it a little lighter.

There are a lot of small companies out there still making miniatures in metal, and customers who prefer it that way. Whether or not there are enough of them to support this game remains to be seen, but it's not as simple as 'Plastic exists, so [company] producing metal models is doing it wrong.'

 insaniak wrote:

 ScarletRose wrote:

Not to mention the material itself. Privateer is rubbing shoulders on KS with boutique resin and even tiny miniature companies doing hard plastic (heck even Heavy Gear got their plastics funded). It just seems like they haven't kept up with the times.

But, again, this assumes that plastic should be the default that every company is aiming for, and that's simply not the case. Some gamers don't want plastic. And resin isn't suited for a lot of sculpts. Resin/metal hybrids are a thing, but mixing materials is potentially confusing for new modelers, and the usual breakup there is resin for the body and metal for weapons and other pointy bits... which doesn't actually achieve anything much over an all-metal model, other than to make it a little lighter.

There are a lot of small companies out there still making miniatures in metal, and customers who prefer it that way. Whether or not there are enough of them to support this game remains to be seen, but it's not as simple as 'Plastic exists, so [company] producing metal models is doing it wrong.'

It's the better material for a mass market miniatures game (as opposed to say miniatures for RPGs which have more leeway on quality and tend to only be bought in ones and twos). The only exceptions I can think of are wargames that require metal either because of how fine the details are (Infinity) or how small the scale is (Flames of War and other 15mm or smaller scale games).

Neither of those exceptions apply here.

Some people prefer manual transmissions in their cars too, but if GM touted their "new" line of cars that are only manual they'd be a laughingstock in this day and age.

Privateer did plastic and was stuck with lots of stock when the game popularity waned. Metal/resin allows them to produce as demand is needed and not have to keep a large overhead nor have to wait 6+ months for a restock like we see with CMoN and FFG.

I prefer plastic too but I know why they do it and I don't begrudge them for it. They've been in the position to go plastic, tried it and it didn't work for them so they walked away.

Privateer plastic flopped because it took them (IIRC) a full year from announcement to actual delivery. It wasn't that they made a bad product, it was that they failed to live up to/timely satisfy the hype.

But I've made my point so I'm bowing out of the thread. We'll see how PP's horse and carriage does in the auto race.

Why I thought the PP plastic kits I did get was good, no plastic is a huge positive and much prefer it.

I got the impression PP hated doing the plastic. They had long lead times, suffered from delays, and were the most complained about kits for quality. I do wish they were doing their resin with these. That’s been pretty good in my experience. I’m surprised theyre not predrilled as they’d talked earlier about sculpting and designing the kits with magnetization in mind.

I'd disagree that if the experiment fails then PP has lost nothing ; you've saddled another group of people who gave you money with another dead game.

There is a limit to how many times you can annoy people before they just aren't interested in anything you do any more.

If PP was doing fine then they wouldn't be even trying a new system.....

My biggest plusfor plastic is you rarely get parts missing. When I played Warmahordes 1 in every 4/5 purchases had missing parts.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/privateerpress/warcaster-neo-mechanika/posts/2779132

$300K unlocked the variant sculpts for warcasters for each of the three races.

They've also added some new stretch goals to the bottom of the page including new warjack heads for each race; a hero that crosses across two armies a painting guide and some other stuff too. They've now got goals up to $500K (the new alternative heads).

 TwilightSparkles wrote:


If PP was doing fine then they wouldn't be even trying a new system.....

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I sort of disagree with that. I love WM/H but the fact is that the game roster of models has become really bloated with some units never seeing play, just existing. PP cant keep on adding stuff forever. There are currently 15 factions and while the CID process has managed to balance stuff, the game can't expand too much more. This is why they have started doing other linked, but stand alone games like Riotquest and MonPoc.

PP still has a release schedule for WM/H for the next year or so. Including a new narrative campaign a-la Oblivion. But I would expect them to push the new game while also promoting but maintaining WM/H.

It just made good buisness sense to expand thier offerings.

 insaniak wrote:

There are a lot of small companies out there still making miniatures in metal, and customers who prefer it that way. Whether or not there are enough of them to support this game remains to be seen, but it's not as simple as 'Plastic exists, so [company] producing metal models is doing it wrong.'

Metals have their place, but that place is usually for very small companies that want to release one-off unique sculpts. At this point, Infinity sculpts could be in plastic and not lose any detail, but the small scale of the forces in question makes it impractical from their perspective (even though it'd make it SO much easier to actually release all the weapon options for each unit instead of getting a LGL in 2008 and HMG in 2013 and a combi rifle option in 2020)

Warmachine 40k instead offers copy-pasted poses for basic troops, no variations and incredibly uniform looks. They are simply not utilizing metal advantages at that point, and the force construction is much better suited to plastic than metals. Just like normal Warmachine became along the line.