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 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
...Given that there's so many units, they don't need to allow extended rosters. Dawn of War doesn't use half of the available roster of units to chose from. They need to tell them to reproduce the line faithfully.

I'm all for reproducing the line faithfully, but there are also holes you'd need to plug to make an interesting RTS. Not so much in the older, more developed factions (though GW does seem to think that long-range indirect-fire artillery is part of the faction character of the Guard and shouldn't be given to anyone else), but things like the Mechanicum's speed deficit, or the Dark Eldar not having anything bigger than a Raider, or the general dearth of ground-based AA...

Sort of like how in Total War they've given the High Elves sword infantry to keep up with the fact that every other faction in the game has their anti-foot swordsmen and anti-large spearmen as early-tier line infantry, and the high elves having sword infantry makes sense in-setting and they look like taking the spearmen and giving them swords, despite the fact that they had no rules for sword foot in 7e or 8e because the kit didn't have parts to build them. You don't need to extend the roster much to, say, make a gun-barge variant of the Tantalus, or lift Ork Bommers from Epic/AI, or define an AA Sky Ray as a different unit from an anti-tank-missile Sky Ray...

(With modding Steel Division there's also the issue of figuring out what the supply/logistics units are.)

I would love a Stellaris 40k mod. However, good mods are such a massive amount of work and dedication. I know so many 40k mods for games have failed, simply because they don't have the community size that something like a star trek/wars mod can pull.

 Trickstick wrote:
Just give it to Paradox.

Entire galaxy, with every faction represented? Sure, it may take 5 years and 10 expansions, but it would be good.

And be a slider game. I will take Starcraft over Stellaris or Age of Empires over Crusader Kings. [I've actually only play CKII out of Paradox games, and was sufficiently unimpressed to not buy others]

I think the mediums I'd like to see 40k in are regular RTS games that don't have politics or taxation sliders or sending ministers to fabricate causus belli and waiting several hours for the random chance of success to happen, and in FPS/third person shooter games. I don't actually play FPS since it makes me ill, but I can't deny that it would bring the universe to life.

I would say that it's the writing, the effects and most importantly the voice acting, that really brought 40k to life in Dawn of War more than the base mechanics being innovative, unique, or reflective of 40k.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:
...Given that there's so many units, they don't need to allow extended rosters. Dawn of War doesn't use half of the available roster of units to chose from. They need to tell them to reproduce the line faithfully.

I'm all for reproducing the line faithfully, but there are also holes you'd need to plug to make an interesting RTS. Not so much in the older, more developed factions (though GW does seem to think that long-range indirect-fire artillery is part of the faction character of the Guard and shouldn't be given to anyone else), but things like the Mechanicum's speed deficit, or the Dark Eldar not having anything bigger than a Raider, or the general dearth of ground-based AA...

Sort of like how in Total War they've given the High Elves sword infantry to keep up with the fact that every other faction in the game has their anti-foot swordsmen and anti-large spearmen as early-tier line infantry, and the high elves having sword infantry makes sense in-setting and they look like taking the spearmen and giving them swords, despite the fact that they had no rules for sword foot in 7e or 8e because the kit didn't have parts to build them. You don't need to extend the roster much to, say, make a gun-barge variant of the Tantalus, or lift Ork Bommers from Epic/AI, or define an AA Sky Ray as a different unit from an anti-tank-missile Sky Ray...

(With modding Steel Division there's also the issue of figuring out what the supply/logistics units are.)

Oh! Logistics units!

Limbering up and towing guns to new positions and resupplying them from trucks is one of my favorite "things that must be done" in blitzkrieg II. IG has the trojan as the prime mover, I imagine most other factions have supply and gun-towing provided by their transport vehicles.

I can definitely imagine that like Kaballites get their ammo from the raider that carried them.

I'm pretty sure I already have an Imperium of Man save file for Stellaris. Just choose traits like Xenophobia, Divine Ruler, Zealotry and make them extremely belligerent.

I've played my fair share of 40k games over the years.

I played "Chaos Gate" and "Rites of War" before I even knew what 40k was

I played "Fire Warrior" waaaaay more often than I should have (I think I completed it somewhat like 20 times or so) spent time with what was overall a rather craptastic game, but it was the first 40k game that had come out after I had picked up the tabletop, so I had more than enough enthusiam. Also I liked that it was kinda like a worse Half-Life.

Dawn of War 1 and 2 continue to be two of my favorite RTS games, though I think that both had overstayed their welcome by the time of "Soulstorm" and "Retribution", with those two expansion being respectively the weakest.

Dawn of War 3, I found so boring and messy gameplay-wise that I stopped after the 4th mission or so.

"Space Marine" was absolutely fantastic and it's a pity they never made that sequel about Captain Titus in the end.

I started BF Gothic, and altough I liked the immersion, one thing I detest about space combat strategy games is the management and "design your own ship" part. Never had the patience for that.

Space Hulk: Deathwing gave me a nice first impression but the bloggy movement and shooting at identical Genestealers inside identical corridors for hours non-stop also made me bored of that game rather quickly.

I also remember having played a tactical game about Ultramarines vs Word Bearers on the Nintendo DS whose name escapes me at the moment, which was also kinda okay-ish.

Still on my to-do list are Mechanicum, Inquisitor, Sanctus Reach and Gladius.

Incidentally, many 40k games are currently at -80% to -60% on Steam.

I think the trouble is that everyone is struggling to figure out what a good modern RTS or 4X game looks like in general.
So the likelihood of getting a good 40k themed version of one of those in the near future is unlikely.

On the other hand, I think Unity of Command would make a brilliant 40k game. The first installment was widely praised for being a simple and engaging wargame that abstracted to just the right level, and I've been hearing good things about the 2nd installment too. Layer a 40k theme with a few gruff voice actors on top and you've got a winner!

I loved Space Hulk Deathwing.

While the story wasn't perfect, the gunplay and environment were absolutely outstanding. It totally encapsulated the feeling of a giant imperial warship and I had a blast exploring.

And yet, there's this:
Warhammer 40,000: Eternal Crusade
A 40k MMO that isn't.

I have tried most 40k computer games. All the way back through Space Hulk for DOS.
Space Marine was probably the biggest out there, with Dawn Of War, doing a lot to bring in new players.

What a damn disappointment Eternal Crusade was. Still hoping for a good 40k/Fantasy/AoS MMO or game like Planetside.

And IMO, a Total War 40k game could work, just with more focus on shooting and vehicle-type units. Hell, the best strategy in Total War Warhammer 2 is mass shooting already

I think 40K TW could work, but I'd really like to see it involve the terrain a lot more. To my thinking 40K needs to take its battle inspiration from the trench style warfare of WW1.

It's not just me thinking of Imperial Guard with that, but in general its that kind of warfare rather than open fields. It should be buildings, ruins, rivers, trenches, defensive positions, etc....


Ontop of that I think they've also got to blend the closecombat/ranged aspects like Dawn of War did. Units that move from ranged to close combat mode automatically without a click on a command button. With the intention of many units to start shooting and then get stuck into close combat. Rather than in fantasy and historical games where most units have a specific single close combat or ranged role and where skirmishers typically require you to tell them to down guns and pick up swords.

That works when you've a few skirmishers rather than most of the entire army being skirmisher



The way I see it in historical games the micro is all about positions and flanks and formations. In Warhammer those take a touch of a back seat and we see more activated abilities and spells. In 40K I'd say it would shift away from both of those and more into movement and building occupation. Ergo using the battlefield terrain.

That might even necessitate removing the standard "hidden and visible" system from a line of sight which the games have now and into an all the time vision with specific units that can stealth mode themselve.s



Of course the risk with such a structure is that everyone would camp down and hold positions and not advance. Dawn of War got around that partly by having control points to contest over. A TW game could use a similar mechanic to force people to come forward and into close combat and risky ranges rather than everyone doing a Tau style gun-line and just waiting out the enemy.
However its structured a ranged heavy game would certainly need that aspect. Be it from objectives; or damage values (ergo making close combat a higher rate of kills); or even from just really dense maps

 Thadin wrote:
What a damn disappointment Eternal Crusade was. Still hoping for a good 40k/Fantasy/AoS MMO or game like Planetside.

And IMO, a Total War 40k game could work, just with more focus on shooting and vehicle-type units. Hell, the best strategy in Total War Warhammer 2 is mass shooting already

I'm not sure it would. 40k doesn't have blocks of infantry in most armies.

Total war is not well suited to 40k battles. You would be better using something like Wargame as a basis. I was going to say that the campaign map system could work, but 40k armies don't fight light that. You don't get an army marching round, unless you abstract it out to a planetary scale.

pm713 wrote:

 Thadin wrote:
What a damn disappointment Eternal Crusade was. Still hoping for a good 40k/Fantasy/AoS MMO or game like Planetside.

And IMO, a Total War 40k game could work, just with more focus on shooting and vehicle-type units. Hell, the best strategy in Total War Warhammer 2 is mass shooting already

I'm not sure it would. 40k doesn't have blocks of infantry in most armies.

Doesn't it? With the removal of templates, there is no longer a reason NOT to move your units in blocks.

 carldooley wrote:
Doesn't it? With the removal of templates, there is no longer a reason NOT to move your units in blocks.

Bubble wrapping and board control? Stretching auras?

 carldooley wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Thadin wrote:
What a damn disappointment Eternal Crusade was. Still hoping for a good 40k/Fantasy/AoS MMO or game like Planetside.

And IMO, a Total War 40k game could work, just with more focus on shooting and vehicle-type units. Hell, the best strategy in Total War Warhammer 2 is mass shooting already

I'm not sure it would. 40k doesn't have blocks of infantry in most armies.

Doesn't it? With the removal of templates, there is no longer a reason NOT to move your units in blocks.

That's gameplay not fluff and you'd base a game on the fluff rather than the tabletop. (Unless you're making an online version of the tabletop of course).

Space Marine, Dawn of War 1 and Dawn of War 2 (to a lesser degree) are really the only 40k games worthy of note.

Everything else has been shovelware, budget 80s UK PC Gaming Scene or broken buggy messes (All three in the case of Eternal Crusade).

Deathwing is somewhat ok with friends for a short while.

 Overread wrote:

The way I see it in historical games the micro is all about positions and flanks and formations. In Warhammer those take a touch of a back seat and we see more activated abilities and spells. In 40K I'd say it would shift away from both of those and more into movement and building occupation. Ergo using the battlefield terrain.

That might even necessitate removing the standard "hidden and visible" system from a line of sight which the games have now and into an all the time vision with specific units that can stealth mode themselve.s

As a player of historical wargames, both miniatures [Flames of War] and conventional hex-and-counter, I don't think any of the ones I play come down to flanks and formations.

They tend to be about securing strong positions with commanding fields of fire and good defensive properties, attacking those positions by bypassing or suppressing them, and capturing objectives. Fundamentally similar I would say to 40k.

Dawn of War 2 depicted the Space Marines pretty well as a group of elite soldiers who attack strategically important locations, ultimately winning against the enemy 100 times larger.

I want an Xcom Warhammer game (better than Deathwatch) where you play as Space Marines and be able to customize your units. The campaign will focus on using a small force to devastate aliens and heretical forces. Hell, in Xcom 2, Xcom can be modded as Space Marines while Advent as the Tau Empire.

I already played Mechanicum. It's not Xcom. Xcom is tactical where combat is unpredictable and you need to think on the move, whereas Mechanicum is very much a simulation where a single strategy can be devised immediately at the beginning of the game (literally, in the game the characters sit around in front of a 3D projection and command an army of robots).

XCOM guts with a 40k skin would be perfect. It's nearly the tabletop game already. GW would never allow it though - directly cannibalizes their tabletop* game, I think.

 zgort wrote:
XCOM guts with a 40k skin would be perfect. It's nearly the tabletop game already. GW would never allow it though - directly cannibalizes their tabletop* game, I think.

I'm pretty sure that I have seen a mod for that.

I don't think it would take sales from the TT. It probably would do the opposite.

 zgort wrote:
XCOM guts with a 40k skin would be perfect. It's nearly the tabletop game already. GW would never allow it though - directly cannibalizes their tabletop* game, I think.

That is pretty much what Mechanicus is, although with less RNG, no cover, and greater focus on resource management, but I have heard nothing to indicate that it led to diminished demand in Necrons or AdMech. Quite the opposite.

 Esmer wrote:


Still on my to-do list are Mechanicum, Inquisitor, Sanctus Reach and Gladius.
.

Mechanicum is great. The dialogue and music are awesome.
Inquisitor is an extremely repetitive diablo clone, but I enjoy it as a time waster. Plus every once in a while you go “oh hey a talos! I have one of those, looks just like it!”
Gladius is certainly a game. Um. Picture a civ game, and then remove everything not directly related to building combat units.

Also someone said they wished there was an x-com type game. There’s a somewhat simplistic 2D one for iOS where you customize a squad of marines to fight stuff. Have to look it up.

Here we go: Deathwatch - Tyranid Invasion

I would love an operational level game. Somewhat niche, but great fun.

Something that captured on a planetary or system level the deployment and use of 'Guard, 'marine, 'navy and other assets. Highlighting marines not needing downtime, or their extreme operational flexibility verses the guards ponderous might. I love all that stuff...

bibotot wrote:
Dawn of War 2 depicted the Space Marines pretty well as a group of elite soldiers who attack strategically important locations, ultimately winning against the enemy 100 times larger.

I want an Xcom Warhammer game (better than Deathwatch) where you play as Space Marines and be able to customize your units. The campaign will focus on using a small force to devastate aliens and heretical forces. Hell, in Xcom 2, Xcom can be modded as Space Marines while Advent as the Tau Empire.

I already played Mechanicum. It's not Xcom. Xcom is tactical where combat is unpredictable and you need to think on the move, whereas Mechanicum is very much a simulation where a single strategy can be devised immediately at the beginning of the game (literally, in the game the characters sit around in front of a 3D projection and command an army of robots).

You're literally just describing Chaos Gate.

I would fully support a Chaos Gate redux.

I'd think an Xcom game where you start as normal humans and progress through a story and get some Marines in your squad and other xenos from the starting enemy appear. For example you're fighting a genestealer uprising and discover Eldar are helping them.

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Space Marine is awesome. I'm amazed I haven't worn out the disc at this point.

Feth Calgar. Captain Titus for chapter master!

Yes agreed. Titus is beast. Love this game. Sometimes I just play it through on a sunday and it's just a well spent day. Try to play the whole game with just plasma pistol and melee weapon. This is a real challange .

Dawn of War: Dark Crusade is the best 40K game I have played.
Dawn of War 2 is the next best, very fun once you get into it and accept it is not gonna be Dawn of War 1.

Space Marine is a lot of fun too, I really love smashing stuff with a thunder hammer and jump pack, and it has a classic 40K plot.

As for older games, I loved Space Hulk: Vengeance of the Blood Angels on Playstation, it is the game that introduced me to the setting.
And Final Liberation I remember being a very absorbing turn based strategy game.

 Platuan4th wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Dawn of War 2 depicted the Space Marines pretty well as a group of elite soldiers who attack strategically important locations, ultimately winning against the enemy 100 times larger.

I want an Xcom Warhammer game (better than Deathwatch) where you play as Space Marines and be able to customize your units. The campaign will focus on using a small force to devastate aliens and heretical forces. Hell, in Xcom 2, Xcom can be modded as Space Marines while Advent as the Tau Empire.

I already played Mechanicum. It's not Xcom. Xcom is tactical where combat is unpredictable and you need to think on the move, whereas Mechanicum is very much a simulation where a single strategy can be devised immediately at the beginning of the game (literally, in the game the characters sit around in front of a 3D projection and command an army of robots).

You're literally just describing Chaos Gate.

I would fully support a Chaos Gate redux.

A chaos gate remaster / redux would be pretty cool.

If a Warhammer XCOM-like were to be released I'd rather the focus be on Guard rather than marines.
There's not enough games that focus on the imperial guard, and the XCOM style of game with its focus on permadeath works better with red shirts such as guard rather than Space Marines who are supposed to be rare and indispensable.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Dawn of War 2 depicted the Space Marines pretty well as a group of elite soldiers who attack strategically important locations, ultimately winning against the enemy 100 times larger.

I want an Xcom Warhammer game (better than Deathwatch) where you play as Space Marines and be able to customize your units. The campaign will focus on using a small force to devastate aliens and heretical forces. Hell, in Xcom 2, Xcom can be modded as Space Marines while Advent as the Tau Empire.

I already played Mechanicum. It's not Xcom. Xcom is tactical where combat is unpredictable and you need to think on the move, whereas Mechanicum is very much a simulation where a single strategy can be devised immediately at the beginning of the game (literally, in the game the characters sit around in front of a 3D projection and command an army of robots).

You're literally just describing Chaos Gate.

I would fully support a Chaos Gate redux.

A chaos gate remaster / redux would be pretty cool.

If a Warhammer XCOM-like were to be released I'd rather the focus be on Guard rather than marines.
There's not enough games that focus on the imperial guard, and the XCOM style of game with its focus on permadeath works better with red shirts such as guard rather than Space Marines who are supposed to be rare and indispensable.

If you guys aren't opposed to mods, openXCom has a total conversion mod that lets you play as either guard or marines agaist both orks and chaos. It is original XCOM: UFO Defense though, so a fair warning that it will not pull punches

 Luke_Prowler wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

bibotot wrote:
Dawn of War 2 depicted the Space Marines pretty well as a group of elite soldiers who attack strategically important locations, ultimately winning against the enemy 100 times larger.

I want an Xcom Warhammer game (better than Deathwatch) where you play as Space Marines and be able to customize your units. The campaign will focus on using a small force to devastate aliens and heretical forces. Hell, in Xcom 2, Xcom can be modded as Space Marines while Advent as the Tau Empire.

I already played Mechanicum. It's not Xcom. Xcom is tactical where combat is unpredictable and you need to think on the move, whereas Mechanicum is very much a simulation where a single strategy can be devised immediately at the beginning of the game (literally, in the game the characters sit around in front of a 3D projection and command an army of robots).

You're literally just describing Chaos Gate.

I would fully support a Chaos Gate redux.

A chaos gate remaster / redux would be pretty cool.

If a Warhammer XCOM-like were to be released I'd rather the focus be on Guard rather than marines.
There's not enough games that focus on the imperial guard, and the XCOM style of game with its focus on permadeath works better with red shirts such as guard rather than Space Marines who are supposed to be rare and indispensable.

If you guys aren't opposed to mods, openXCom has a total conversion mod that lets you play as either guard or marines agaist both orks and chaos. It is original XCOM: UFO Defense though, so a fair warning that it will not pull punches

I saw that, and that is pretty nice, but I'd like a game where the UI isn't from 1994