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Part of the problem seems to be a lot of people seeming to see old school spam of horde or codex units as a bit unkond but acceptable.

Yet when it comes to LoW or flyers they have a very different view that you need to warn you opponents etc.

As a pure knights list player they aren't realy that great and any halfway competitive list/player will have no issue killing one or two and out scoring you every game.

Just use them.

 harlokin wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Karol wrote:
But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.

The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.

On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.

Leviathans were a problem, Iron Hands or not. Everybody had the half damage stratagem. Iron Hands just made them aggressively irritating 'cause shield drones.

Why were Death Guard Leviathans a problem?

If that were the case everyone would've been doing it. It's only Iron Hands, period.

That's what I was implying....

You're implying Levis themselves are a problem without Iron Hands.

I'd ask your opponent beforehand. I don't feel titans and the like are appropriate for most games.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 harlokin wrote:

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

Gadzilla666 wrote:

Karol wrote:
But this also means that the non that great arent run. It is like FW, people say its models aren't that great either. Up until the boards get flooded with leviathan dreadnoughts. Then, all of the sudden, FW is a problem.

The boards were flooded with Iron Hands leviathans. Other flavors weren't a problem.

On topic, LOW are only really good when you have force multipliers to apply to them. A baneblade isn't that scary, but a baneblade with Vengeance for Cadia on it is fething nasty.

Leviathans were a problem, Iron Hands or not. Everybody had the half damage stratagem. Iron Hands just made them aggressively irritating 'cause shield drones.

Why were Death Guard Leviathans a problem?

If that were the case everyone would've been doing it. It's only Iron Hands, period.

That's what I was implying....

You're implying Levis themselves are a problem without Iron Hands.

Nope. I was asking why Death Guard Leviathans were be a problem, implying that non-Iron Hand Levis (in this case Death Guard), let alone the inferior Hellforged versions werent in the same ballpark as the IH. I object to all Leviathans being lazily branded broken, just because the IH had a ridiculous interaction with them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're implying Levis themselves are a problem without Iron Hands.

Only against Jeanstealers.

 Trickstick wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're implying Levis themselves are a problem without Iron Hands.

Only against Jeanstealers.

Ice_can wrote:
Part of the problem seems to be a lot of people seeming to see old school spam of horde or codex units as a bit unkond but acceptable.

Yet when it comes to LoW or flyers they have a very different view that you need to warn you opponents etc.

I don't think hordes are a good comparison, tbh.

Whilst technically still a skew list, the main difference is that when you shoot/assault horde armies, you're still removing swathes of models. So, even if you ultimately lose, you still feel like you're doing stuff and having a significant impact on the battlefield. Plus, whist anti-tank weapons might be overkill, they can still at least help thin out the horde.

Contrast that with Knight armies - where a lot of the match is going to be shooting at them with minimal impact (because your weapons are bouncing off their toughness/armour/invulnerable saves), and quite possibly being unable to touch them in assault (as their overwatch can vaporise entire units).

To be clear, I'm not saying that Knight armies are necessarily too powerful, just that they tend to be one of the least fun army-types to play against.

 vipoid wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Part of the problem seems to be a lot of people seeming to see old school spam of horde or codex units as a bit unkond but acceptable.

Yet when it comes to LoW or flyers they have a very different view that you need to warn you opponents etc.

I don't think hordes are a good comparison, tbh.

Whilst technically still a skew list, the main difference is that when you shoot/assault horde armies, you're still removing swathes of models. So, even if you ultimately lose, you still feel like you're doing stuff and having a significant impact on the battlefield. Plus, whist anti-tank weapons might be overkill, they can still at least help thin out the horde.

Contrast that with Knight armies - where a lot of the match is going to be shooting at them with minimal impact (because your weapons are bouncing off their toughness/armour/invulnerable saves), and quite possibly being unable to touch them in assault (as their overwatch can vaporise entire units).

To be clear, I'm not saying that Knight armies are necessarily too powerful, just that they tend to be one of the least fun army-types to play against.

Only the Valiant's Overwatch is something to be scared of, for a decent assault unit.

A lucky shot from a Knight CAN kill a character, but against a charging blob, they might pick off two or three.

 vipoid wrote:

Ice_can wrote:
Part of the problem seems to be a lot of people seeming to see old school spam of horde or codex units as a bit unkond but acceptable.

Yet when it comes to LoW or flyers they have a very different view that you need to warn you opponents etc.

I don't think hordes are a good comparison, tbh.

Whilst technically still a skew list, the main difference is that when you shoot/assault horde armies, you're still removing swathes of models. So, even if you ultimately lose, you still feel like you're doing stuff and having a significant impact on the battlefield. Plus, whist anti-tank weapons might be overkill, they can still at least help thin out the horde.

Contrast that with Knight armies - where a lot of the match is going to be shooting at them with minimal impact (because your weapons are bouncing off their toughness/armour/invulnerable saves), and quite possibly being unable to touch them in assault (as their overwatch can vaporise entire units).

To be clear, I'm not saying that Knight armies are necessarily too powerful, just that they tend to be one of the least fun army-types to play against.

That's a mentality problem, people equate fun with removing your opponents models, I've had won some of my closest games having only killed 3 units and lost half my army.

With proper objectives instead of just kill the most stuff IMHO the most unfun list to play against is hordes of minus to hit or blanket non inteactive armies.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Only the Valiant's Overwatch is something to be scared of, for a decent assault unit.

A lucky shot from a Knight CAN kill a character, but against a charging blob, they might pick off two or three.

That has absolutely not been my experience. I've had units famed for their durability entirely obliterated by a Knight's overwatch.

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Only the Valiant's Overwatch is something to be scared of, for a decent assault unit.

A lucky shot from a Knight CAN kill a character, but against a charging blob, they might pick off two or three.

That has absolutely not been my experience. I've had units famed for their durability entirely obliterated by a Knight's overwatch.

Anecdotes do not make for evidence.

And, outside the Valiant (who has 3d6 S7 AP-2 D2 auto-hits at more than 12") what Knight has scary enough Overwatch to be a real threat?

Even a Castellan only has 3d6+4d3+4 shots, for about four hits on average. Those hits will, usually, HURT, but they can't kill more than models than they have hits.

Edit: I'll give you this-charging a CHARACTER in is probably a bad idea, since those shots can be doing 3d3 damage apiece (if the Volcano Lance hits) or 2d6b3 (if charging an Errant or Crusader with a Thermal). But a blob will be fine.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Anecdotes do not make for evidence.

And with that comment you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

What about 500 point games where someone brings a LoW?

 vipoid wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Anecdotes do not make for evidence.

And with that comment you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

Tell me, then, what Knight (again, aside from the Valiant and its superflamer) have scary enough Overwatch to kill, say, a blob of Orks? They're not even that durable, but a Castellan has a not quite 2% chance of rolling enough SHOTS to kill a squad of 30. And then they have to hit on a 6+ and wound on 2+ or 3+.

And yes, I know that there's a strat (I think it's House-locked, though) to have an additional Knight Overwatch, rather than just the one charged.

My personal opinion: if you are looking for a pick up game, you should probably have a take all comers type of list.

It’s the person bringing skew (e.g. a “first company” terminator list or whatever, or a full knight army, or like pure grots and boys) that should be asking permission, and not the guy who brings a bane blade with his guard brigade, or a guy that brings a single knight. I hesitated on including full knight army as skew, but this is strictly pickup games and not competitive or tourney play I’m talking about.

What I’m getting at is that lords of war on their own really present zero issues to people who bring balanced lists.

 Blndmage wrote:
What about 500 point games where someone brings a LoW?

Play an objective game, and win on points.

I think the whole "permission" thing is the wrong way to think about it. It is not up to the other person to get permission. It is up to both players to have an idea of the kind of game they want. Mostly, this comes down to a general level of pick up game etiquette. However, it is still not a permission thing for this. It is a refusal thing.

You can refuse to not play a game for any reason. If you have a problem facing certain lists, then maybe find out what you are facing before getting your models out. Of course, I think it would be good form to have a list to present before this, as I find tailoring to be very unsportmanlike.

that only works if you have huge groups of people owning multiple armies and multiple choices for single armies. If two people met up to play a 2k pts game, then the chance that both arrived with more then 2k pts is very small, the chance they own enough to tailor the armies against each other is low either. Specially when one of the people have a bad or very good army, there is a good chance you can't balance the two armies against each other. And then what do you do, go back home without playing?

Karol wrote:
that only works if you have huge groups of people owning multiple armies and multiple choices for single armies. If two people met up to play a 2k pts game, then the chance that both arrived with more then 2k pts is very small, the chance they own enough to tailor the armies against each other is low either. Specially when one of the people have a bad or very good army, there is a good chance you can't balance the two armies against each other. And then what do you do, go back home without playing?

That's not a pickup game though, it's a pre-arranged game. So if there are any dealbreakers for you, they should be discussed when arranging the game.

 Trickstick wrote:

Karol wrote:
that only works if you have huge groups of people owning multiple armies and multiple choices for single armies. If two people met up to play a 2k pts game, then the chance that both arrived with more then 2k pts is very small, the chance they own enough to tailor the armies against each other is low either. Specially when one of the people have a bad or very good army, there is a good chance you can't balance the two armies against each other. And then what do you do, go back home without playing?

That's not a pickup game though, it's a pre-arranged game. So if there are any dealbreakers for you, they should be discussed when arranging the game.

So what if you show up to a store, it's a slow day, and the only other player there brought a tournament list, or a LoW only list, or a guard tank company? Assume, they only have the models for the list they brought and you have the same issue.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
So what if you show up to a store, it's a slow day, and the only other player there brought a tournament list, or a LoW only list, or a guard tank company? Assume, they only have the models for the list they brought and you have the same issue.

I guess there are 4 options.

1: Play the game as it stands, accepting any imbalance.
2: Allow some proxying.
3: Don't play.
4: Change the scenario to suit the forces, so that it can still be a fun game. For example, maybe the armoured force is a convoy that your infantry can ambush. Maybe it is a last stand, where you know you are doomed but the objetive is to last as long as you can, or escape. Not everything has to be the same scenarios evey time. Some of my most memorable games have been random things we thought up on the spot.

As always, discussion and compromise will be the best approach.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
So what if you show up to a store, it's a slow day, and the only other player there brought a tournament list, or a LoW only list, or a guard tank company? Assume, they only have the models for the list they brought and you have the same issue.

I guess there are 4 options.

1: Play the game as it stands, accepting any imbalance.
2: Allow some proxying.
3: Don't play.
4: Change the scenario to suit the forces, so that it can still be a fun game. For example, maybe the armoured force is a convoy that your infantry can ambush. Maybe it is a last stand, where you know you are doomed but the objetive is to last as long as you can, or escape. Not everything has to be the same scenarios evey time. Some of my most memorable games have been random things we thought up on the spot.

As always, discussion and compromise will be the best approach.

In 3 of the 4 scenarios, you presented a game was played, two of them don't change the list. It seems like LoWs and armored companies aren't difficult to accommodate and thus should be accepted at any table.

 Canadian 5th wrote:

 Trickstick wrote:

Karol wrote:
that only works if you have huge groups of people owning multiple armies and multiple choices for single armies. If two people met up to play a 2k pts game, then the chance that both arrived with more then 2k pts is very small, the chance they own enough to tailor the armies against each other is low either. Specially when one of the people have a bad or very good army, there is a good chance you can't balance the two armies against each other. And then what do you do, go back home without playing?

That's not a pickup game though, it's a pre-arranged game. So if there are any dealbreakers for you, they should be discussed when arranging the game.

So what if you show up to a store, it's a slow day, and the only other player there brought a tournament list, or a LoW only list, or a guard tank company? Assume, they only have the models for the list they brought and you have the same issue.

You either:

A: Pack up your models and go home with your tail between your legs.

B: Play the fething game and have fun. You can't win every game, and it's only a game. Your models will still work after the match, you won't have to burn them in a fething viking funeral. Learn to take an arse kicking. It's something you should be able to do both in 40k and real life. And who knows, you may win.

Fething kids these days.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
In 3 of the 4 scenarios, you presented a game was played, two of them don't change the list. It seems like LoWs and armored companies aren't difficult to accommodate and thus should be accepted at any table.

I agree, although there are limits. Depends what both players are expecting from a game. For example, say one guy brought a conscript list for a narrative penal legion vs tyranid game, and had the opponent cancel last minute. The random pick up player brought a tournament practice list based on a fellblade or something. There is going to have to be some sort of accomodation made or it is going to be a boring game.

 Trickstick wrote:

 Canadian 5th wrote:
In 3 of the 4 scenarios, you presented a game was played, two of them don't change the list. It seems like LoWs and armored companies aren't difficult to accommodate and thus should be accepted at any table.

I agree, although there are limits. Depends what both players are expecting from a game. For example, say one guy brought a conscript list for a narrative penal legion vs tyranid game, and had the opponent cancel last minute. The random pick up player brought a tournament practice list based on a fellblade or something. There is going to have to be some sort of accomodation made or it is going to be a boring game.

That's life. It's nice if your opponent is a good sport and willing to play ball but if not, why not make your own narrative based on the standard game? Maybe your conscripts were given bad intel, or marched to the wrong sector, dropped out of the warp and found out the tyranids were repelled and chaos reigns, or were sent out to die on purpose by a vengeful commander. Make your own fun.

 Canadian 5th wrote:
That's life. It's nice if your opponent is a good sport and willing to play ball but if not, why not make your own narrative based on the standard game? Maybe your conscripts were given bad intel, or marched to the wrong sector, dropped out of the warp and found out the tyranids were repelled and chaos reigns, or were sent out to die on purpose by a vengeful commander. Make your own fun.

Sure that is always an option. Something I have done before. Like when a game is going badly and you make up your own objective to give you something to aim for: "if I can kill their Warlord then I at least win something", for example.

 Trickstick wrote:
Sure that is always an option. Something I have done before. Like when a game is going badly and you make up your own objective to give you something to aim for: "if I can kill their Warlord then I at least win something", for example.

That's the way to be! It sounds like you'd be a fun opponent.

For the rest of the thread, when you get a mismatch of lists and you can't work out an ad-hoc custom scenario with your opponent make your own story that fits and try to have fun with that. Then rather than playing against that fething guy, you can say your force was sent out to die or performing a heroic but doomed delaying action and suddenly the game becomes more than just models and lists.

 Blndmage wrote:
What about 500 point games where someone brings a LoW?

The problem really is about bringing 500 points of highly durable models, not about bringing LoW. Calgar+Tigurius protected by a vitrix honor guard are just as bad, if not worse than Gulliman at 500 points.

The slot has absolutely nothing to do with it, it's just the lingering "Apocalypse only" mentality of veterans.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Blndmage wrote:
What about 500 point games where someone brings a LoW?

The problem really is about bringing 500 points of highly durable models, not about bringing LoW. Calgar+Tigurius protected by a vitrix honor guard are just as bad, if not worse than Gulliman at 500 points.

The slot has absolutely nothing to do with it, it's just the lingering "Apocalypse only" mentality of veterans.

Would have been nice if they had stay apocalypse but good game design would have help with a lot of things.