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keep in mind until, basicly the beginning of 7th edition, chapter master level was basicly tops. Primarchs wheren't a thing, also if Ghaz was raised to primarch level, it'd mean he'd become a Lord of war.
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind until, basicly the beginning of 7th edition, chapter master level was basicly tops. Primarchs wheren't a thing, also if Ghaz was raised to primarch level, it'd mean he'd become a Lord of war.
He was a lord of war in 7th wasn't he?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 07:29:08
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind until, basicly the beginning of 7th edition, chapter master level was basicly tops. Primarchs wheren't a thing, also if Ghaz was raised to primarch level, it'd mean he'd become a Lord of war.
He was a lord of war in 7th wasn't he?
So was Calgar Dante and Logan
it was kinda annoying as it meant if you had an army that had been legel in 6th or earlier with them in an HQ slot sudden;y the army was illegal because you needed another HQ
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 07:30:27
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
Abaddon understands that strong recognizable characters are essential to the survival of any fictional franchise and acted accordingly.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
Or maybe forget the idea of storyline and go back to how 40k has been for decades. Setting.
They dont' risk sales of dead character being hurt
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
As for the rest, I'm talking about Armageddon, not Ghaz in particular. If I recall correctly, Ghaz isn't even AT Armageddon at the time of the Great Rift, having been chased off by Helbrecht and gone to the Octarius Sector. So, moot point.
But nice digging.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Can you stop with this rubbish.
Ghaz is to Orks what Guilliman is to Ultramarines.
No, he's not. He's the Calgar or Dante or Creed or Azrael of the Orks, and always has been. And you know what, that's okay - that's still SUPER incredibly influential - but it's not the Beast.
Guilliman is on the same tier as the Beast.
We're not talking about literally, we're talking about what he represents.
You're still wrong. Ghaz isn't Guilliman. He's a Calgar, looking to become a Guilliman, but isn't there yet.
Ragnar is no Grimnar, nor is he a Russ. He is not on the same level.
You'd be right with Grimnar and Ghaz being on the same level, yes. But, more importantly, the gap between a 'Ragnar' and 'Grimnar' is smaller than that between a 'Grimnar' and 'Russ'. I'm largely of the opinion that characters of one tier lower can stand against characters of the tier above - ie, someone like Ragnar could be a match for Calgar, or Typhus. Especially someone with Ragnar's reputation and long history in the actual RL game itself.
Again, don't get me wrong, I don't think Orks should be a punching bag, and Ghaz *should* be on the Beast's tier by now - but he's not there yet.
Until then, he's on Calgar/Grimnar tier, in my eyes.
You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
It is very simple - there is a difference between how Smudge thinks Ghaz should be presented (i.e., a "Beast"/Prime-Ork-nonsense) and how GWare currently presenting Ghaz (at the roughly Chapter Master tier, as Smudge perceives it).
Hardly rokkit science, AAE.
Yes I understand the principle and this is exactly how I feel. The difference is I'm disappointed GW have brought Ghaz' a peg down and now represent him as CM level (he was always presented as stronger previously, see Dakka Dakka Flame's very useful post on Warlords and Warbosses above for reference) while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Rokkit science is much easier to understand - big pointy end goes boom! Hit fings wiv dat!
For Orks, it is often the simple fings in life.
An Actual Englishman wrote: Edit - Nazdreg still exists in the lore, he introduced Ghazzy to the Tellyporta tech and they are somewhat allies. Obviously no model because xenos don't get all their character models.
Well, I know he had at least one model in the past, which tied in to the Mega-Armour that was released in 2nd edition - I wonder why he never got updated. It doesn't help that 40k Wiki and Lexicanum seem to be showing a conversion as his model, rather than his actual model (with the power claw giving a high five...)
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
BrianDavion wrote: keep in mind until, basicly the beginning of 7th edition, chapter master level was basicly tops. Primarchs wheren't a thing, also if Ghaz was raised to primarch level, it'd mean he'd become a Lord of war.
Animus wrote: As to not finishing him, Calgar was was essentially dead, only reviving after Abaddon had gone.
And why didn't Abaddon take the approx 2 seconds it'd take to actually get the job done and kill Calgar for sure? The genius tactician and warmaster of Chaos didn't think to finish off his opponent? Seems.....odd..?
Abaddon understands that strong recognizable characters are essential to the survival of any fictional franchise and acted accordingly.
Calgar? As in Marneus "serves no purpose now Daddy's back" Calgar? Really?
I'm sure there are a few that will disagree with me, but I honestly believe that given the setting as it is now, Calgar's death would have a much more positive impact on the playerbase (and hence the survival of the franchise) than his continued survival. Again, from what I gather the fact that he survived his duel with Abaddon didn't go down well in any community excluding perhaps the Ultramarine players.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dysartes wrote: I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
Fair enough, if that is the case I understand. I'm sure, in time, these wounds will heal *Cry me a river plays in the background
For Orks, it is ALWAYS the simple fings in life.
Corrected, git!
Well, I know he had at least one model in the past, which tied in to the Mega-Armour that was released in 2nd edition - I wonder why he never got updated. It doesn't help that 40k Wiki and Lexicanum seem to be showing a conversion as his model, rather than his actual model (with the power claw giving a high five...)
Yea that's right, he hasn't seen a new model since the high fiving bad boy of 2nd ed.
I guess you could say.....he got the Dregs of the development time?
I'll see myself out.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 10:54:55
An Actual Englishman wrote:You seem conflicted and confused.
You agree that GW should have made Ghaz' a 'Beast' by now yet believe it's fine that Ragnar decapitates him because he isn't? Which is it? I also think Ghaz' should be a 'Beast', which is exactly why I'm disappointed he gets mugged by Ragnar who isn't of the same level.
Sounds like you don't think Ghaz' should be a credible threat (aka Beast') to me, otherwise you wouldn't be defending Ragnar cutting his swede off. Or do you think Ghaz' should win round 2? That he should be beasted up by then?
As Dystartes says:
Dysartes wrote:It is very simple - there is a difference between how Smudge thinks Ghaz should be presented (i.e., a "Beast"/Prime-Ork-nonsense) and how GWare currently presenting Ghaz (at the roughly Chapter Master tier, as Smudge perceives it).
Hardly rokkit science, AAE.
Ding ding ding, got it in one. AAE, you phrase the first sentence like it's mutually exclusive. It isn't. I want Ghaz to be on The Beast tier, but the fact is that right now, he isn't. Therefore, him being defeated in melee combat by a rather famous, rather iconic hero (and it's less defeated, more a draw to the death), doesn't really rustle me.
Trust me, if Ghaz had been at Beast stage, I would share the sentiment that Ragnar shouldn't have beaten him. But that's not what happened.
Dakka Flakka Flame wrote:We don't really know the details of how the fight goes down. The writer could do a good job, or a bad job, it's hard to know until we actually get to read it.
Very true. As we've seen with the explanations of Primaris, the shorthand explanation is very different to the actual truth of the matter.
When it comes to Ragnar vs Ghazzy, it's true that Ragnar isn't just some Captain. He's one of the most skilled Space Marines out there. Also, Space Marines choose their officers based on their ability to lead, not just their ability to fight. I wouldn't be surprised if in most Chapters their most skilled fighter wasn't the Chapter Master or even one of the captains.
I wish I saw more of this - I've never really gotten why the Chapter Master is always the toughest, strongest Marine in the Chapter - I know on tabletop that GW believe in "more senior = more strong", but in the lore/special characters, I wouldn't mind seeing someone like a Captain or even Chapter Champion be the most skilled fighter. Realistically, the Champion really SHOULD be the best fighter!
One thing I want to mention is that "Warboss" is often used to cover a lot of different orks that differ greatly in power.
Spoiler:
Codexes, campaign books and such don't always line up in terms of terminology, and there's also the issue of them often being written from the Imperial perspective using Imperial designations. Also I imagine orks themselves don't particularly care about conforming to any sort of formal nomenclature or organization (other than maybe those weirdo Blood Axes ).
This is what I've gathered from reading a bunch of the ork stuff over the years: Big Boss - roughly equivalent to an ork lieutenant (hasn't had rules since early 3rd) Warboss - leader of a Warband, which is usually said to be a hundred or so orks Warlord -this is where it gets confusing because it seems to be a term with no upper limit, but I'd divide it up into three categories for our purposes *Warlord 1 - leader of an ork Tribe, which is sometimes defined as "a few hundred to a few thousand orks" and sometimes as all the orks in a specific region *Warlord 2 - an ork Warlord who has united many tribes (at least one planet) under his rule and is either leading a Waaagh! or about to launch one. *Warlord 3 - an ork Warlord leading an especially large Waaagh! or the leader of one of the large ork empires (Snagrod, Nazdreg, etc.) Primeork - the biggest orks in history, such as The Beast from The Beast Arises
Note: The Armageddon campaign books had somewhat different takes on the terms. Codex: Armageddon had a Warband as 300 - 3000 orks IIRC (I'd need to dig it out to confirm) which is more analogous to a Tribe in other sources. The Waaagh! Ghazghkull supplement had Warlords leading "Warhordes" (a term I've only seen in that book) which seemed to be about the size of tribe but they don't give specific numbers.
It's confusing because Warlord 1s are relatively common, and a Space Marine Captain would probably win a fight with one most of them time, but Warlord 3s are rare and nigh-unstoppable monsters that often kill high ranking Space Marines in the books. Doubly confusing when "Warboss" and "Warlord" often get used interchangeably.
I think Ghazzy is supposed to be somewhere in between Warlord 3 and Prime-ork, but I don't really know.
Yeah, he's definitely in that bracket, but I'd say he's still got a way to go between 3 and Prime. Realistically, he makes up his own 4th Warlord category in between the two.
And yeah, the fact that Warlords and Warbosses are used almost synonymously is very confusing, especially when there's a pretty big power gap between them! It's a catch-all term, but covers SO much. It's like if Chapter Masters, Captains and Lieutenants were all merged into one unit entry and one catch all term.
An Actual Englishman wrote:Yes I understand the principle and this is exactly how I feel. The difference is I'm disappointed GW have brought Ghaz' a peg down and now represent him as CM level (he was always presented as stronger previously, see Dakka Dakka Flame's very useful post on Warlords and Warbosses above for reference)
Was he? I always saw Ghaz as a CM equivalent, not stronger. Referencing DDF's post, the category Ghaz held I'd have called comparative to First Founding Chapter Masters (Azrael, Calgar, Grimnar, Dante, etc). So, for me, I don't feel a particular loss there.
while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
Just because I want something else doesn't mean I can't accept how things are in reality. I'd like Ghaz to be a Beast. But he's not, so I should manage my expectations. But, I understand that that's just my mechanism of registering this.
Dysartes wrote:I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
Put like that, I guess that's accurate, at least on my part. Again - got it in one!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 11:37:50
Who is "The Beast"? Is this some Horus Heresy stuff? The Warboss that strangled the Emperor (because he can't just have been a normal warboss now that we have super powered the big E and Primarchs to incredible levels...)
Da Boss wrote: Who is "The Beast"? Is this some Horus Heresy stuff? The Warboss that strangled the Emperor (because he can't just have been a normal warboss now that we have super powered the big E and Primarchs to incredible levels...)
I believe the whole "they beat each other up and killed one another" plot is actually a callback to a White Dwarf battle report where they squared off in the 90's. Wolf Lord Rho had a video on it, and I can follow the logic I suppose.
Bedouin Dynasty: 10000 pts
The Silver Lances: 4000 pts
The Custodes Winter Watch 4000 pts
MajorStoffer wrote:
...
Sternguard though, those guys are all about kicking ass. They'd chew bubble gum as well, but bubble gum is heretical. Only tau chew gum.
Like I said, I believe the irritation boils down to the fact that the absolute best that the Orkz can hope to field was brought to a "draw". Not by the absolute best person the Imperium has to offer, or (arguably) even the second or third best. But by one of a dozen or so Chapter Champions. That severely reduces the apparent threat of the Faction, when the absolute pinnacle of what they can offer at the moment was, essentially, beaten by a foe that is far less powerful than the best the Imperium can offer.
It'd be like G-Man being fought to a draw by, say, Grotsnik. You'd be right to feel like GW is doing wrong by your Faction and to wonder what this will mean for them in the future.
flandarz wrote: Like I said, I believe the irritation boils down to the fact that the absolute best that the Orkz can hope to field was brought to a "draw". Not by the absolute best person the Imperium has to offer, or (arguably) even the second or third best. But by one of a dozen or so Chapter Champions. That severely reduces the apparent threat of the Faction, when the absolute pinnacle of what they can offer at the moment was, essentially, beaten by a foe that is far less powerful than the best the Imperium can offer.
It'd be like G-Man being fought to a draw by, say, Grotsnik. You'd be right to feel like GW is doing wrong by your Faction and to wonder what this will mean for them in the future.
But Ghaz isn't exactly renown for his 1v1 prowess though as far as I''m aware, he's not been going around murdering chapter masters annually or anything. He's a threat because he unites the teeming masses and surviving having your head chopped off is such an impossibly unlikely thing to happen he really did do better than Ragnar in therms of plot armour.
BrianDavion wrote: if characters killed was the best lore out there people would be claiming Lord of the Rings sucked and game of thrones was the best ever...
I'd disagree...
not that I'm suggesting 40k is on par with Tolkein
No, but a universe where no named characters can die sucks more. Lotr killed off boromir, theoden, denethor etc.
An Actual Englishman wrote:while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
Just because I want something else doesn't mean I can't accept how things are in reality.
I'd like Ghaz to be a Beast. But he's not, so I should manage my expectations. But, I understand that that's just my mechanism of registering this.
Dysartes wrote:I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
Put like that, I guess that's accurate, at least on my part. Again - got it in one!
You act as if we've known this for ages. It was, quite literally, revealed this Monday. Until we found out that Ghaz' got decapitated by Ragnar I don't think many people would expect Ragnar to hold Ghaz' to a draw and I think most normal people would hear that the next PA is called 'Saga of the BEAST', would read GW referring to Ghaz' as 'BEAST' continually and would make the logical assumption that he is now, well, a BEAST.
I have to be honest, it seems much more likely that you have never considered Ghaz to be the same level of the beast, either because you don't know his lore particularly well and/or you haven't been following this PA very closely.
But Ghaz isn't exactly renown for his 1v1 prowess though as far as I''m aware, he's not been going around murdering chapter masters annually or anything. He's a threat because he unites the teeming masses and surviving having your head chopped off is such an impossibly unlikely thing to happen he really did do better than Ragnar in therms of plot armour.
Ghaz absolutely was one of the top 1v1 combatants in the 41st millennium until this PAbs.
Belial? Grand Master of the Deathwing? Ghaz rekt him. Makes this rubbish lore even more bizarre.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/13 13:12:30
An Actual Englishman wrote:while Smudge seems perfectly content to accept how GW are now presenting Ghaz', which is in direct opposition to the claim 'I think Ghaz' should be beast tier by now'?
Just because I want something else doesn't mean I can't accept how things are in reality.
I'd like Ghaz to be a Beast. But he's not, so I should manage my expectations. But, I understand that that's just my mechanism of registering this.
Dysartes wrote:I think Smudge may just be further along the 5 Stages than you've gotten so far - you still seem to be on Anger, while he has made it to Acceptance.
Put like that, I guess that's accurate, at least on my part. Again - got it in one!
You act as if we've known this for ages. It was, quite literally, revealed this Monday. Until we found out that Ghaz' got decapitated by Ragnar I don't think many people would expect Ragnar to hold Ghaz' to a draw and I think most normal people would hear that the next PA is called 'Saga of the BEAST', would read GW referring to Ghaz' as 'BEAST' continually and would make the logical assumption that he is now, well, a BEAST.
I have to be honest, it seems much more likely that you have never considered Ghaz to be the same level of the beast, either because you don't know his lore particularly well and/or you haven't been following this PA very closely.
But Ghaz isn't exactly renown for his 1v1 prowess though as far as I''m aware, he's not been going around murdering chapter masters annually or anything. He's a threat because he unites the teeming masses and surviving having your head chopped off is such an impossibly unlikely thing to happen he really did do better than Ragnar in therms of plot armour.
Ghaz absolutely was one of the top 1v1 combatants in the 41st millennium until this PAbs.
Belial? Grand Master of the Deathwing? Ghaz rekt him. Makes this rubbish lore even more bizarre.
Err Ragnar has banished a daemon primarch once and assisted with two more, if beating Belial is his peak this may explain things.
Considering this is GW, I imagine most of the named Space Marine characters featuring in novels are able to banish a Daemon Primarch. Can't be a bad-ass without at least doing that much. GW made that the milestone and simultaneously made Daemon Primarchs into mini-bosses.
Yeah, I mean the main problem is that there just are not enough space marines, but each one can kill a hundred orks, easily, and deck a warboss no problem.
The only problem as I say is there are not enough of them.
An Actual Englishman wrote:You act as if we've known this for ages. It was, quite literally, revealed this Monday. Until we found out that Ghaz' got decapitated by Ragnar I don't think many people would expect Ragnar to hold Ghaz' to a draw and I think most normal people would hear that the next PA is called 'Saga of the BEAST', would read GW referring to Ghaz' as 'BEAST' continually and would make the logical assumption that he is now, well, a BEAST.
It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
I have to be honest, it seems much more likely that you have never considered Ghaz to be the same level of the beast, either because you don't know his lore particularly well and/or you haven't been following this PA very closely.
I mean, by all means, jump to conclusions, but if you read what Crimson quoted me as saying earlier, I made explicit reference to Ghaz being *near* the Beast. Not that he was, but that he was still the biggest meanest Ork of his time. I've never underrated Ghaz.
I've been following this well enough, but I've not jumped to any conclusions - only expectations, which I reserve every right to lower. By all means, you can pretend what I think, but you're pretty mistaken.
Insectum7 wrote:That's interesting. . . in a pretty recent thread you seem to be arguing the opposite:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: . . . Orks lose Thraka? They lose their Prophet of the Waaagh!, on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Armageddon is a strategic and logistical lynchpin to the Segmentum Solar. It's a site of semi-religious significance to the Ork species. It's the massing point for one of the largest Waaagh!s ever. It holds incredible significance as a result, in the same way Cadia does.
So like, which is it? Ghaz being nearly The Beast, and the grand architect of Armageddon, an event you recently argued was as important as The Great Rift? . . . or . . . Ghaz the "big Warboss" who just gets beheaded by a named Space Marine captain?
Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
So *just* a Warboss who also happens to be Prophet of the Waagh on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor. That seems like a conveniently broad range.
Here is my issue. Ghaz is currently the best Ork that Orks can muster, as opposed to the thousand Chapter Masters out there, and the ten thousand Space Marine Captains out there. So how much of a threat does that make the Orks out to be?
For the record I'd like to get more context around the story. But the cliffs notes sure make it seem daft.
Insectum7 wrote:For a long time you needed your opponents permission to use special characters, so even though they were taking part in in-universe plotlines, they weren't on every table the way they are now.
They've been this way for over ten years now, at least. May have been for a long time before you needed permission, but that's not been the case for a similarly long time.
When it happened is rather beside the point.
When there's comments that start making out like this is all a new development, and how 'everything new is bad', I think it rather *is* important, if only just to stop the spread of misinformation.
Unique characters have been easily accessible in game, and popping out and about in the setting at important events for well over 10 years. That's not a "new" thing. Making comments like "for a long time..." trivialises the equally long time we've had with easily accessible heroes.
I never claimed it was a new thing. But I can certainly make a claim that after a decade of it it's become a tiring thing, and I can remember a time when the storytelling was less named-character drama centric.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
They traded a stagnant timeline for an advancing timeline with unkillable characters. I agree, super boring in the long run.
Ugh, some of us liked the stagnant timeline. It added to the whole "the galaxy is so huge and everything is so spread out that nothing you do matters" hopeless grimdark feel. Now heroes bounce from warzone to warzone all across the galaxy like their taking a trip to the next town over. Everything feels smaller.
And here I thought this was a toy game played with toys on a table.
Personally, I care about the presentation of the setting. Which is not quite the same as story. Stories are an important part to the presentation of the setting though.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
I mean, by all means, jump to conclusions, but if you read what Crimson quoted me as saying earlier, I made explicit reference to Ghaz being *near* the Beast. Not that he was, but that he was still the biggest meanest Ork of his time. I've never underrated Ghaz.
I've been following this well enough, but I've not jumped to any conclusions - only expectations, which I reserve every right to lower. By all means, you can pretend what I think, but you're pretty mistaken.
If Ghaz was "near" the Beast Ragnar wouldn't have a chance. You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater. Ragnar isn't even the fething top Space Wolf. They aren't (nor should they be) equals.
Why am I even discussing this with you? Your picture and your dakka title of "Venerable Ultramarine Dreadnought" makes it pretty clear where your loyalty lies. It's no wonder you think this is normal.
queen_annes_revenge wrote: Christ.. more childish lore from GW.. 'I got you first..no! it was the the same time so were both dead'..sounds like kids when theyre playing... they need to do a game of thrones and actually kill some characters off... and not just magical ones who come back cough saint cough... that just makes any storyline super boring.
They traded a stagnant timeline for an advancing timeline with unkillable characters. I agree, super boring in the long run.
Ugh, some of us liked the stagnant timeline. It added to the whole "the galaxy is so huge and everything is so spread out that nothing you do matters" hopeless grimdark feel. Now heroes bounce from warzone to warzone all across the galaxy like their taking a trip to the next town over. Everything feels smaller.
And here I thought this was a toy game played with toys on a table.
Do people actually care about the "story" at all?
Hmmmmm I wonder, if only there were books themed around Warhammer whose success we could use as a measure of "how important the story is to people". Man wouldn't that be a thing? I wonder what it would be called? The Dark Museum? The Shrouded Study?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/13 17:37:27
Dudeface wrote: Err Ragnar has banished a daemon primarch once and assisted with two more, if beating Belial is his peak this may explain things.
He banished who now?
He banished Magnus but it's more he ran into a Chaos Ritual, grabbed the Spear of Russ and yeeted it into the opening portal than he actually beat a Primarch.
tremere47-fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate, hate, leads to triple riptide spam
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Who is to say Ragnar couldn't also defeat Belial? Ragnar has some pretty decent feats under his belt as well as (historically at least) having reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: I mean, by all means, jump to conclusions, but if you read what Crimson quoted me as saying earlier, I made explicit reference to Ghaz being *near* the Beast. Not that he was, but that he was still the biggest meanest Ork of his time. I've never underrated Ghaz.
I've been following this well enough, but I've not jumped to any conclusions - only expectations, which I reserve every right to lower. By all means, you can pretend what I think, but you're pretty mistaken.
If Ghaz was "near" the Beast Ragnar wouldn't have a chance. You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater. Ragnar isn't even the fething top Space Wolf. They aren't (nor should they be) equals.
Why am I even discussing this with you? Your picture and your dakka title of "Venerable Ultramarine Dreadnought" makes it pretty clear where your loyalty lies. It's no wonder you think this is normal.
Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/03/13 18:02:39
Space Wolves - Alpha Legion - Biel-Tan - Reikland - Lizardmen of Hexoatl - Slaaneshi Daemons
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
So *just* a Warboss who also happens to be Prophet of the Waagh on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor. That seems like a conveniently broad range.
Did you miss my sarcasm with the amount of """""" around my 'just'? Ghazghskull is a Warboss. Ragnar is a Space Marine Captain, Yarrick is a Commissar. But they're way way more than just that - all incredibly storied, all notable, all unique from their fellows of the same rank/station. But it doesn't mean that Ghaz IS a Prime-Ork, or Ragnar IS a Chapter Master, or Yarrick IS a Lord General Militant. So yeah - you're absolutely right about a broad range.
Here is my issue. Ghaz is currently the best Ork that Orks can muster, as opposed to the thousand Chapter Masters out there, and the ten thousand Space Marine Captains out there. So how much of a threat does that make the Orks out to be?
In my honest opinion? The vast majority of Ork Warbosses are pretty killable for a Space Marine Captain. But, the range of how powerful an Ork Warboss can be is the real factor, and how many Ork Warbosses there are. Sure, there might be ten thousand Space Marine Captains. But there's probably several thousand times more Warbosses - the vast majority who are, as I said, killable for Captains. The threat of Orks, like GSC or suchlike, isn't that their heroes are the toughest around. It's that there are so many of them, and are still a threat, even if they're weaker.
Ghaz is the biggest Ork out there, but it doesn't make him invulnerable, nor does that really explain why he's important. He's not important because he smashes the hardest. He's important because he's the most charismatic (in an Orky term), he's the most strategically gifted, and he's the most kunnin'. And, let's be honest, he wasn't going up against a normal Space Marine Captain - it was a named character with just as much history (well, close enough at least) as him.
I never claimed it was a new thing. But I can certainly make a claim that after a decade of it it's become a tiring thing, and I can remember a time when the storytelling was less named-character drama centric.
Then say that, instead of "for a long time", because that implies validity from duration, which the current situation could also claim. No issue with your preference being just that, but the appeal to "it's been like this for a long time" cuts both ways. In my experience, 40k is just as named-character centric was it always has been, in my experience, so I'm fine with it - and it's hardly like I'm new.
An Actual Englishman wrote:
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Under potentially much difference circumstances - and you act like Ghaz also didn't beat Ragnar far more than he did Belial. Ragnar seems he'd only survive through the Rubicon - Belial got better (speaking of, why am I not hearing complaints about 'he should have diiiiiied' about that?)
Plus, are we saying that Calgar shouldn't have lost to the Swarmlord, because he killed an Avatar of Khaine, by that same logic?
If Ghaz was "near" the Beast Ragnar wouldn't have a chance.
Allow me to amend - "nearest" - which is what I meant anyways, what with him being most influential Ork of his time.
You don't seem to understand your own claims. You ARE underrating him in thinking that this Ragnar bs is normal. As has been said now countless times, Ghaz is THE TOP ORK, there is no Ork greater.
*the top Ork at the present. He's not the Beast, he's not a Prime-Ork, he's not even the Warboss at Ullanor. He's certainly the top Ork of his day, but that doesn't mean he's immortal or invulnerable.
Ragnar isn't even the top Space Wolf. They aren't (nor should they be) equals.
As I said, I compare Ghaz to Calgar, to Dante, to Grimnar, and suchlike. And if Ragnar got a mutual kill on Calgar, I'd be fine with that, because the power levels aren't exactly leagues apart. I'm okay with slight underdogs - especially when it results in a mutual kill. If Ragnar had one and didn't essentially die, I'd be all for saying this was improper. But that didn't happen.
Why am I even discussing this with you?
Beats me, feel free to walk away.
Your picture and your dakka title of "Venerable Ultramarine Dreadnought" makes it pretty clear where your loyalty lies. It's no wonder you think this is normal.
Ah yes, because, famously, you can gather all you possibly need to know about someone from the random banner and profile picture they have. Here's a novel idea, perhaps deal with the content of my argument instead?
I might be an Ultramarine player predominantly, but I'd rather have Orks than Space Wolves. But hey, I guess I'm deluded as to my own beliefs because some rando says so.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: It was never confirmed, and it's not like anything was retconned. Ghaz hasn't gone down in power level - they just didn't advance as much as many of us were expecting.
No, it's a notable drop. Ragnar is no more the fighter than Belial. Ghaz handily beat Belial.
Who is to say Ragnar couldn't also defeat Belial? Ragnar has some pretty decent feats under his belt as well as (historically at least) having reflexes beyond that of other Space Marines.
Hell, I'd be fine with Ragnar beating Calgar - and that's coming from an Ultramarine player who really isn't fond on the Wolves.
Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
Shhhhhh, self-awareness isn't something Orks are known for.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/03/13 18:12:18
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ghaz is the BIGGEST Ork, I didn't deny that, but he's not the Beast. Not yet. That's my whole point - if GW HAD made Ghaz the new Beast (which, personally, I think they should have by now), then I'd be all for Ragnar not having been able to pull it off. The fact is that Ghaz isn't yet at that stage, and he's still """""just"""""" a Warboss - the biggest and most influential, no doubt, but he's not the Head of the Entire Ork Species. There's a distinct difference.
So *just* a Warboss who also happens to be Prophet of the Waagh on a scale near to the Beast of Ullanor. That seems like a conveniently broad range.
Did you miss my sarcasm with the amount of """""" around my 'just'? Ghazghskull is a Warboss. Ragnar is a Space Marine Captain, Yarrick is a Commissar. But they're way way more than just that - all incredibly storied, all notable, all unique from their fellows of the same rank/station. But it doesn't mean that Ghaz IS a Prime-Ork, or Ragnar IS a Chapter Master, or Yarrick IS a Lord General Militant.
So yeah - you're absolutely right about a broad range.
Here is my issue. Ghaz is currently the best Ork that Orks can muster, as opposed to the thousand Chapter Masters out there, and the ten thousand Space Marine Captains out there. So how much of a threat does that make the Orks out to be?
In my honest opinion? The vast majority of Ork Warbosses are pretty killable for a Space Marine Captain. But, the range of how powerful an Ork Warboss can be is the real factor, and how many Ork Warbosses there are. Sure, there might be ten thousand Space Marine Captains. But there's probably several thousand times more Warbosses - the vast majority who are, as I said, killable for Captains. The threat of Orks, like GSC or suchlike, isn't that their heroes are the toughest around. It's that there are so many of them, and are still a threat, even if they're weaker.
But Ghaz is not weaker.
Heck, Warbosses in general aren't weaker, just looking at their stats.
Sgt_Smudge wrote: Ghaz is the biggest Ork out there, but it doesn't make him invulnerable, nor does that really explain why he's important. He's not important because he smashes the hardest. He's important because he's the most charismatic (in an Orky term), he's the most strategically gifted, and he's the most kunnin'. And, let's be honest, he wasn't going up against a normal Space Marine Captain - it was a named character with just as much history (well, close enough at least) as him.
Normally I'm all on board with "size doesn't equate to importance", but we're talking about Orks. It's actually their biology. Size is literally an expression of importance/authority/Gork-Morkiness. Particularly in the Goff clan, the authority goes to the Ork who smashes the hardest, and I'm pretty sure more authority just makes an Ork smash even harder.
I never claimed it was a new thing. But I can certainly make a claim that after a decade of it it's become a tiring thing, and I can remember a time when the storytelling was less named-character drama centric.
Then say that, instead of "for a long time", because that implies validity from duration, which the current situation could also claim.
No issue with your preference being just that, but the appeal to "it's been like this for a long time" cuts both ways.
In my experience, 40k is just as named-character centric was it always has been, in my experience, so I'm fine with it - and it's hardly like I'm new.
My claim isn't at all using history as a form of authority. I'm simply making an observation that there is a difference in the way the stories are handled, then vs. now.
Dudeface wrote: Err Ragnar has banished a daemon primarch once and assisted with two more, if beating Belial is his peak this may explain things.
He banished who now?
He banished Magnus but it's more he ran into a Chaos Ritual, grabbed the Spear of Russ and yeeted it into the opening portal than he actually beat a Primarch.
Yea, that was my understanding also. He didn't banish him. He closed the portal Magnus was going to walk through. Not really the same.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DivineVisitor wrote: Could the same bias not also be said of yourself and your own Avatar?
Absolutely, but I don't claim to be unbiased.
For me, as an Ork player, there is no logical justification for the double KO. That said context is a thing. If Ghaz is gloating over a *presumed dead* Ragnar and Ragnar manages a last desperate strike to behead Ghaz before keeling over, well, that's something I can get behind.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/03/13 18:46:54
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